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@SpinyNorman said:
No, all 3 levels of dukkha are subjective.
Bhikkhu Bodhi among others considers that Samskara Dukhata has both a subjective and objective domain. The objective functioning pertains to all conditioned and compounded phenomena. This includes physical phenomena that have no bearing to sentience, and which are in fact inimical to sentient existence..such as the nuclear processes which fuel the energy of stars,( as one example ) he sees those phenomena as characterized by Samskara Dukhata.
When phenomena are subject to Phassa, that engenders a subjective sequence.
Hey guys! How are we? Wow great thread! Very good stuff. I've got a practical experiential four noble truth test you all have done. This is what I've learned.
1st noble truth - watch the pain in your legs after an hour of not moving in meditation. There is dukkha.
2nd truth- watch your mind at the same time! " omg this hurts, I've got to move. This must be bad for me!"
3rd truth - observe that the pain is not you, how can the watcher and the watched be the same? Realisation of the pain not being you. Bang the pain doesn't hurt anymore. It's just pain. Not dukkha.
4th noble truth - realising all three before is the path.
What do you guys think of this for a laymans term for the noble truths?
No I haven't visited a vipassana centre, but I've studied the technique and practiced vipassana ( plus zazen and mindfulness meditation) for a number of years... I'm fortunate in that I'm in the position to meditate twice a day, everyday, morning and evening and have been doing so for over 15 years...The sit time varies from 20 mins to 45 mins per sit...So at times 40 mins to one and half hours per day...However I've also developed a 'habit' of being mindful throughout the day (It comes with the territory) ...
I know of some people who have done vipassana at a centre (10 day retreat), but said they have got nothing out of it, no real improvement in their daily lives...I often wonder what their motive was for doing it in the first place...
Glad to hear you have found it useful, now all you need to do is keep up the practice...As they say "Practice makes perfect!" (Or near enough perfect)...
Now after this short derailment we are back on track
Biological Evolution is another process driven by Samskara Dukhata. What we see as 'progress' is neither progress nor regress seen objectively, just an series of modifications which arise due to Samskara Dukhata being all pervading in conditioned existence.
I think the 3 sub-divisions of dukkha are best understood as levels of increasing subtlety rather than distinct types.
In any case the 3rd truth clearly describes nibbana as the cessation of tanha and dukkha, which means that a Buddha doesn't experience dukkha.
@Earthninja said:
1st noble truth - watch the pain in your legs after an hour of not moving in meditation. There is dukkha.
2nd truth- watch your mind at the same time! " omg this hurts, I've got to move. This must be bad for me!"
3rd truth - observe that the pain is not you, how can the watcher and the watched be the same? Realisation of the pain not being you. Bang the pain doesn't hurt anymore. It's just pain. Not dukkha.
4th noble truth - realising all three before is the path.
What do you guys think of this for a laymans term for the noble truths?
Pretty good! There is no substitute for time on the cushion to explore this stuff.
@SpinyNorman said:
In any case the 3rd truth clearly describes nibbana as the cessation of tanha and dukkha, which means that a Buddha doesn't experience dukkha.
I think it looks like some of us are looking it from point of view of conventional truth (CT),while others viewing it from ultimate truth (UT). If this is the case then every one is true. If you look at it from CT viewpoint, suffering is dukkha , but happiness is happiness (not dukkha). From UT viewpoint, all samsaric pleasures are dukkha in their true nature. Anyway , this is my understanding so far.
@Meatball said:
I think it looks like some of us are looking it from point of view of conventional truth (CT),while others viewing it from ultimate truth (UT). If this is the case then every one is true. If you look at it from CT viewpoint, suffering is dukkha , but happiness is happiness (not dukkha). From UT viewpoint, all samsaric pleasures are dukkha in their true nature. Anyway , this is my understanding so far.
I think you could just say that dukkha is experienced at different levels, some more obvious, some more subtle. The 3rd truth says that dukkha ceases when nirvana is attains, which means that dukkha is a purely "psychological" experience - that's quite encouraging really.
****"A shower of gold cannot satisfy craving.
Sensual pleasures bring little sweetness,
Cause much suffering.
The deciple of the Buddha finds joy
In the extinction of desire."
I like to think that life is dukkha, & dukkha is: Whatever we need at the time to happen to us, in an effort to help us reach a spiritual awakening..So whenever i get a dukkha moment, i see it as a chance to learn about myself or life..So life is dukkha, & dukkha is a chance to learn something about myself or life..Without dukkha life would be boring, & questions wouldn't be asked..So someone we love dies & death is dukkha, & so we start asking big questions about our own mortality etc..We can also learn how to deal with dukkha moments better emotionally, but we need dukkha moments in order to practice controlling our emotions better..So to me at the moment life is dukkha, & dukkha is a chance to learn.
Comments
Bhikkhu Bodhi among others considers that Samskara Dukhata has both a subjective and objective domain. The objective functioning pertains to all conditioned and compounded phenomena. This includes physical phenomena that have no bearing to sentience, and which are in fact inimical to sentient existence..such as the nuclear processes which fuel the energy of stars,( as one example ) he sees those phenomena as characterized by Samskara Dukhata.
When phenomena are subject to Phassa, that engenders a subjective sequence.
Hey guys! How are we? Wow great thread! Very good stuff. I've got a practical experiential four noble truth test you all have done. This is what I've learned.
1st noble truth - watch the pain in your legs after an hour of not moving in meditation. There is dukkha.
2nd truth- watch your mind at the same time! " omg this hurts, I've got to move. This must be bad for me!"
3rd truth - observe that the pain is not you, how can the watcher and the watched be the same? Realisation of the pain not being you. Bang the pain doesn't hurt anymore. It's just pain. Not dukkha.
4th noble truth - realising all three before is the path.
What do you guys think of this for a laymans term for the noble truths?
Kia Ora @Earthninja,
How was the vipassana ?
Metta Shoshin .
..
Hi @Shoshin !
Was probably the best thing I've ever done. Very challenging living like a monk for 10 days but really good!
They do these hour sittings where you cannot move. 3 times a day. Hence you experience the noble truth straight away.
It was fantastic, I would like to go back every year. It had such a great, welcome all. No preaching environment. Just a great fellowship feeling.
Have you done one? How have you been?
Kia Ora @Earthninja,
I'm well thank you....
No I haven't visited a vipassana centre, but I've studied the technique and practiced vipassana ( plus zazen and mindfulness meditation) for a number of years... I'm fortunate in that I'm in the position to meditate twice a day, everyday, morning and evening and have been doing so for over 15 years...The sit time varies from 20 mins to 45 mins per sit...So at times 40 mins to one and half hours per day...However I've also developed a 'habit' of being mindful throughout the day (It comes with the territory) ...
I know of some people who have done vipassana at a centre (10 day retreat), but said they have got nothing out of it, no real improvement in their daily lives...I often wonder what their motive was for doing it in the first place...
Glad to hear you have found it useful, now all you need to do is keep up the practice...As they say "Practice makes perfect!" (Or near enough perfect)...
Now after this short derailment we are back on track
"Dukkha...That's Life !"
Metta Shoshin .
..
Biological Evolution is another process driven by Samskara Dukhata. What we see as 'progress' is neither progress nor regress seen objectively, just an series of modifications which arise due to Samskara Dukhata being all pervading in conditioned existence.
I should have attributed that. Its not an original thought. Its a paraphrase of Bhikkhu Bodhi.
I think the 3 sub-divisions of dukkha are best understood as levels of increasing subtlety rather than distinct types.
In any case the 3rd truth clearly describes nibbana as the cessation of tanha and dukkha, which means that a Buddha doesn't experience dukkha.
Pretty good! There is no substitute for time on the cushion to explore this stuff.
We are clearly at cross purposes here.
Metta to you.
Do you think a Buddha experiences dukkha? Do you think Nibbana isn't the cessation of tanha and dukkha?
To repeat, we are talking past each other. I take full responsibility for that.
May things go well with you.
I think it looks like some of us are looking it from point of view of conventional truth (CT),while others viewing it from ultimate truth (UT). If this is the case then every one is true. If you look at it from CT viewpoint, suffering is dukkha , but happiness is happiness (not dukkha). From UT viewpoint, all samsaric pleasures are dukkha in their true nature. Anyway , this is my understanding so far.
I think you could just say that dukkha is experienced at different levels, some more obvious, some more subtle. The 3rd truth says that dukkha ceases when nirvana is attains, which means that dukkha is a purely "psychological" experience - that's quite encouraging really.
This is from UT viewpoint.
****"A shower of gold cannot satisfy craving.
Sensual pleasures bring little sweetness,
Cause much suffering.
The deciple of the Buddha finds joy
In the extinction of desire."
I like to think that life is dukkha, & dukkha is: Whatever we need at the time to happen to us, in an effort to help us reach a spiritual awakening..So whenever i get a dukkha moment, i see it as a chance to learn about myself or life..So life is dukkha, & dukkha is a chance to learn something about myself or life..Without dukkha life would be boring, & questions wouldn't be asked..So someone we love dies & death is dukkha, & so we start asking big questions about our own mortality etc..We can also learn how to deal with dukkha moments better emotionally, but we need dukkha moments in order to practice controlling our emotions better..So to me at the moment life is dukkha, & dukkha is a chance to learn.