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The Problem With Presentation
I was watching some interesting videos on Youtube about people making fun of Buddhism. It was rather entertaining and it prompted me to write this post. I think the reason Buddhism fails to capture the hearts of more people is in its portrayal.
For instance, the one video summed up the 4 Noble Truths.
'Dont worry, we have suffering all figured out for you. The 4 Noble Truths!
1. Life contains suffering.
2. All suffering is caused by desire.
3. You won't suffer anymore if you abandon desire.
4. To get rid of desire, follow the 8-Fold Path.'
Do you think this is a very accurate summary of the path the Buddha taught? This is a definition of Buddhism I find all too often on the internet.
And expanding upon this, did the Buddha really teach that all desire was bad? I have read that the Buddha spoke of two kinds of desires. The first, tanha, is craving and is the never-ending thirst for things. If we follow this, we will never be fully happy or content with our lives because we are always craving.
Another desire less frequently mentioned is chandra (sp?). This type of desire is necessary for us. It is the desire for our own well being, security, and the well-being of others. Our problems can arise when we cannot see the distinction between the two.
And another question...Is it really accurate to say that all desire is at the heart of our suffering. In "Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" by Thich Naht Hanh, he says that it is a 'grave mistake to say that craving is at the root of all suffering.'
This seems quite obvious, but often overlooked. Other things cause suffering as well. Anger, hatred, greed, delusion, random events, sickness, death. All of these cause suffering.
And finally, do you associate pain with suffering? Lama Surya Das seems to make a distinction between them, but they are at least closely related. (Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional?)
I know this was a bit of a ramble, but I didn't feel like making a bunch of separate posts mainly about the same thing.
For instance, the one video summed up the 4 Noble Truths.
'Dont worry, we have suffering all figured out for you. The 4 Noble Truths!
1. Life contains suffering.
2. All suffering is caused by desire.
3. You won't suffer anymore if you abandon desire.
4. To get rid of desire, follow the 8-Fold Path.'
Do you think this is a very accurate summary of the path the Buddha taught? This is a definition of Buddhism I find all too often on the internet.
And expanding upon this, did the Buddha really teach that all desire was bad? I have read that the Buddha spoke of two kinds of desires. The first, tanha, is craving and is the never-ending thirst for things. If we follow this, we will never be fully happy or content with our lives because we are always craving.
Another desire less frequently mentioned is chandra (sp?). This type of desire is necessary for us. It is the desire for our own well being, security, and the well-being of others. Our problems can arise when we cannot see the distinction between the two.
And another question...Is it really accurate to say that all desire is at the heart of our suffering. In "Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" by Thich Naht Hanh, he says that it is a 'grave mistake to say that craving is at the root of all suffering.'
This seems quite obvious, but often overlooked. Other things cause suffering as well. Anger, hatred, greed, delusion, random events, sickness, death. All of these cause suffering.
And finally, do you associate pain with suffering? Lama Surya Das seems to make a distinction between them, but they are at least closely related. (Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional?)
I know this was a bit of a ramble, but I didn't feel like making a bunch of separate posts mainly about the same thing.
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Comments
It's not just the craving for things that makes us suffer, KOB. It is the very nature of our attachment to everything, especially our thoughts, opinions, beliefs and ideas, that causes us to suffer. I love to contemplate the Four Noble Truths because they seem so simple upon reading them and yet, when I contemplate them and their truth in my daily life, there's SO much there. It's been like unraveling a never ending ball of yarn that changes colour constantly. SO interesting.
So keep contemplating these things, KOB. You'll get much more out if them, though, if you approach them with an open, positive mind instead of trying to prove that the Buddha was wrong. If you apply them to your daily life and sincerely look for their truth and relevance, I think you'll understand them more clearly and more profoundly.
I remember during my early days in Buddhism when I tried to introduce the Four Noble Truths to two Muslim friends in a quite-open interfaith conversation.
"The first Truth states that, life is full of suffering." I said innocently, only to be returned by quite the skeptical chuckle and denial of it.
"Suffering? Ha! So what are we now? Crying?" and the likes of it were the replies - obviously as told to me by happy people who had no problem with their own life.
Unfortunately, I find that often Buddhists start introducing Buddhism to the curious seeker via just it - The Four Noble Truths, the basic foundation blocks of our way of life. It seems that such "common sense" Truths to us, very ironically, make sense to the average seeker only when indeed, he or she is in a state of suffering, depression, agony and living in the metaphorical Hell. The seeker seems to be the one responsible to find Buddhism, and not vice versa.
At other times, with others who are fairly satisfied with their own lives and do not generally bother to think much about anything, Buddhist teachings seem to be virtually meaningless for them - and the fact that it is a major religion of the modern world, just make them think that it is another huge cult with little to offer - like the way quite a lot of atheists may view organized religion. For this, Buddhism gets dragged along as the butt of jokes.
so i don't really remember any of these things.
I just say its.. about realising stuff, you get to read about peoples thoughts and realisations over thousands of years.. so surely they have something to offer everyone.
yea i wouldn't preach it to someone not interested.. and i dont see much point to those who are.. really.. just tell them the basics.. because its too complex to take in.. and i am a very bad teacher.
Palzang
* Sorry, I had to throw in something for Simon to get his teeth into.
I find that looking at the 4 Noble Truths when I feel elated and in a very good mood can be quite perplexing. What's this? Suffering? My life is great!
But then something big and heavy hits me and it can be a bit overwhelming at first. This is when reflection upon the 4 Noble Truths really helps get through those times. For instance, I was in a terrific mood several weeks ago and found that my mother had to get surgery or else cancer could grow in some cells. The 'high' was gone and I felt a bit helpless. I took some quiet time by myself and just observed the basic teachings of the Buddha in my mind. The pain eased and I felt much calmer realizing that I was not alone in suffering this world.
Oh yeah, and thankfully no cancer was found and my mom is returning to health.
That's a perfectly normal reaction you have had. When you're not suffering, you don't like to think about it. When you are suffering, you can't help but think about it! That's why it's important to contemplate the "Four Thoughts Which Turn the Mind Toward Dharma" daily.
First is the preciousness of a human birth. When you look at all the beings that are alive in this world alone (not to mention those we can't see), you realize that to be born a human being is a rare thing indeed! In the contemplation we use, it is likened to a sea turtle surfacing randomly in the ocean and coming up in a life preserver floating in the vastness of the ocean. And to be born a human at a time when the Buddha's teachings are flourishing in the world, with all your faculties complete, and the leisure to practice (it may not seem like we have much leisure, but we have enough to practice), is indeed rare even in human terms. It also goes on to say that to have a precious human birth and to not practice Dharma when we have the opportunity is like traveling to a continent full of precious jewels and coming home empty-handed.
Second is impermanence. All things are impermanent, including our lives. When we look at the big picture of things, our lives pass as rapidly as water over a waterfall. It's over in a flash. Whatever we accumulate in this life, whether it's possessions or money or power or fame or whatever, will be useless to us when we die. We can't take it with us. But practicing the Dharma gives you something that will last from lifetime to lifetime (whether you believe in rebirth or not!).
Third is the law of karma. The Buddha taught that everything we do has a result. We can't escape that no matter what we do. It's simply a law of nature. So we need to accumulate causes that result in happiness rather than those that increase and prolong our suffering.
Fourth is the contemplation on the benefits of virtue and the faults of non-virtue. By practicing virtue, we arrive at the time of death like a traveler who is fully prepared for his journey. By practicing non-virtue, however, we experience suffering. All suffering is due to non-virtuous karma. At the time of death one will take rebirth in the lower realms.
These are the traditional Thoughts Which Turn the Mind. Contemplating them even for a few moments daily can help keep you stable on the Path and not allow you to forget when things seem to be going smoothly.
Palzang
Some dude turned water into wine? Healed the blind? Died and then floated up to heaven in a cloud? Or say that you accept someone as your savior and then all your "sins" will be forgiven? And then something about, "Abba Father". You mean like digging Dancing Queen or SOS?
I mean - I could sit here and make fun of Christianity. I could sit here and make fun of just about any religion or thought process if I wanted to.
Like Brigid said - it simply means that I'm not in the mindset to hear it or think about it. You have to engage in learning new things with some level of seriousness.
-bf
The essential question would be if greed, hatred and delusion are rooted in desire. Or in other words, if all the reasons you mentioned can be traced back to a single thing. Why should death be suffering other than because you want life more than death ?
Let`s not forget that the Buddha summarized suffering as "the 5 aggregates subject to clinging" in the 1st noble truth. Then again, dukkha is not literally suffering, but can be translated as stress, dissatisfaction or even uncompletenes. You see, a little twist on the words and the tenets seem to change. Thats`s why practice is an important element, to get a "feeling" for Dhamma.
Regards
Palzang
In with the good air
Out with the bad.
In with the good air
Out with the bad.
A valid point though. I think people who are having a great time, think, "What me? I'm suffering? Pish posh!"
They don't think of the times they lie awake at night missing, wanting, hating, wishing, etc. They don't think of their life, love lost, enemies made, action which brought about suffering.
The Buddha didn't say, "You will suffer every single instant of your life."
-bf
No, I do not dispute they suffer. I saw Dukkha often translated as stress depending on the context. Sorry, I did not want to make anyone upset.
True. The German rendering, for anyone interested, is leidvoll, literally full of suffering, not just suffering. it translates officially to sorrowful, mournful.Now, I do not want to go on this further, although the rendering of dukkha is a problem of presentation. I think we all agree that there clearly is suffering.
So I'll take a few deep breaths and go have a lie-down now. Thank you.
Palzang
Fofoo...
That's interesting that the German rendering is "leidvoll" = "full of suffering".
Just goes to show you how difficult things can be going from one language to the other.
I just read a short writing about how the translation of a certain story about some dude parting the Red Sea in the Bible might have been mis-interpreted. It seems now that scholars believe that the Exodus crossed the Rush Sea - which was just a sea of rushes or a large swamp. I wonder if it would be easier for a group of people to cross a marsh than for an army?
Anyway, thanks for that, fofoo...
-bf
You're just as weird as I am, aintcha?
-bf
Palzang
Good point.
-bf
Well...
Are you believing everything you read???
Laura
It lies before you, Laura. It is your choice to walk it or not.
The Noble Eightfold Path is contained in the Fourth Noble Truth and is the path that leads to the end of suffering. Just Google the Four Noble Truths and The Noble Eightfold Path and you'll find lots of information about it because it is the foundation of everything the Buddha taught.
Also, check out the links Palzang listed in the other thread and you'll find the Truths and the Path there.
Hope this helps.
Brigid
Palzang