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Discussion about Marines and war and idiocy and buddha and stuff
Out of curiosity, did the support you got from people here during your recent hard times help or hinder you? Did you appreciate it or not? Not baiting or trying to get too personal, but this is relevant to the discussion we are having. However, I will understand if you don't want to answer.
This might be of some relevance in light of one or two posts in this thread:
Pissing off the 'Buddhists' - Brad Warner
Guys who like to run around telling their friends they're Buddhists have to
work very hard at keeping up a certain pose. They've got this special
"Buddhist" way of talking, kinda like Mr. Rogers as a guest on a New age talk
show quoting lines from Richard Gere movies. Then there's this little smile
they've got stapled to their faces at all times to tell the world they've
achieved a rare state of inner peace and enlightenment. Maybe they think
they're fooling their friends. But that shit never fooled anyone. You can tell
it's really rough keeping up the pose by the way they've permanently stiffened
their facial muscles into that cute little grin so hard it looks like a plastic
mask.
People like this would be massively annoying if they weren't so God damned
funny. Whenever I get around a group of them I always feel like I've walked
into a convention of teddy bear collectors or maybe a baby powder factory or
something. It's like they've created this intensively cute fantasy world in
which there are no sharp edges and everything is all soft and warm. They love
you. They love me. They love the Bush administration. They love Saddam Hussein.
Lots and lots of icky sticky gushy sugary sweet love. You better not do
anything to contradict their fantasy or they'll -- oh my God -- they'll shoot
love beams at you to melt your cold hard heart (You think I'm kidding? I've
actually had "Buddhists" try to shoot imaginary love beams at me out of their
eyes -- No joke!).
Guys like this always want to give you their teachings. No matter what you say
to them, it's an opportunity for them to point out where you're wrong and how
your life would be so much better if you could only learn to be just like them.
"I've got this hangnail," you say. And they come right back at you with, "The
body is but an immaterial object, remain in the now and do not be bothered by
its sensations." Hey, just lend me some nail clippers and shut the fuck up, OK?
The thing that makes it real fun to piss phony Buddhists off is the fact that
when they get pissed off, it's not enough for them to just be pissed off.
They're also pissed off because they're pissed off. And they're pissed off that
they're pissed off that they're pissed off. And... well, you get it, it just
goes on like that forever.
Plus they're extra especially pissed off that the guy who's pissing them off
claims to be an ordained Buddhist priest, something they've fantasized about
becoming for years. Maybe they've never even actually met a Buddhist priest
before. But they know exactly what they're supposed to be like. Buddhists
priests are supposed to be safe for guys like this. They're supposed to agree
with whatever they say. They're supposed to be lovey dovey people who'd never
do or say anything that could ever bother anyone.
When I used to get these just absolutely poisonously angry e-mails from guys
like this, I made the mistake of saying stuff like, "I'm very sorry what I
wrote upset you." Really, though, I meant it.
But boy does that ever tick off a "Buddhist!" The last thing they'll admit to
anyone in the world is that something yanked their chain. They're above that
sort of thing, you see, since Buddhism showed them The Light. And they consider
it an insult to be apologized to. So now not only are they so mad they could
spit (and even madder at the fact that they're mad in the first place), they
have to pretend they're not mad, which gets them even hotter under the collar.
Reading what they write I swear I can hear them just slamming away at their
keyboards like Sean Penn wailing on some tabloid reporter's face.
I'd like to believe maybe a couple of these guys took a few deep breaths and
thought to themselves, "Hey, maybe there's a little problem here." But I tend
to doubt it. See, they'd already figured out what the problem was. It's that
guy who writes the stupid Buddhist web page! Buddhism is supposed to calm you,
soothe you. It's supposed to be stilling. Kind of like a lullaby from mommy.
When someone starts using Buddhism in a way that makes people angry --
especially people who've devoted so much time and effort to memorizing every
little tid-bit in every book at the local Barnes and Nobles with "Zen" in the
title -- well, that's (pant, gasp) that's just... (twitch, twitch) that's just
not right!
But that kind of gooey candy coated garbage isn't Buddhism at all. Buddhism is
realism. And reality is rarely soothing. It's not a warm fuzzy blanket you can
curl up into. Sometimes it's ice cold and hard as a rock. It's got all kinds of
jagged edges and nasty little pointy bits that can scrape you up pretty bad.
Ah, but here's where Buddhism comes in. That stuff can only hurt you when you
believe it's something different from you. When you discover that that
coldness, those jaggedy edges, all those nasty little things you wish you could
avoid are really just you, when you see that what's hurting you isn't the stuff
outside, but your reaction to the stuff you encounter, then everything changes.
Inner balance doesn't come from finding a clever way of hiding from or steeling
yourself up against what you don't like in life. It comes from facing it head
on.
Nishijima once said to me, "It's important to face hated information." I'd been
talking to him about some stuff which I found very disturbing to read about.
His advice was to read as much of that stuff as I could get my hands on. And
y'know, when I did that, I started to see right through that stuff, to see that
what I thought was powerful and even dangerous to my psyche was really nothing
at all. Just words typed by some human being who saw the world in a certain
way. Big, fat, hairy deal.
If my "Buddhist" friends out there in computer land were able to see things in
a realistic way, they'd see that that's all my writing was too. Just words.
What's far more important than reacting to words is to see just how that
process of reacting to words works. You've got to say to yourself, "Who am I?
And why is it that I'm getting this kind of a reaction to what I'm reading?"
Why is it so important for you to establish that these words are WRONG. Why do
you feel the need to try and silence those who say the things you don't like?
Or on the other side what is it that makes you think certain words are right,
that they're beautiful and stilling. What is it that drives you to seek out
stilling, calming words while doing your utmost to avoid anything that disturbs
you?
I hate bigotry, racism, sexism and just plain stupidity and ignorance in
whatever flavor it comes. For years I tried to shout it down. I wished I had
the power to somehow rip the larynxes out of every member of the Moral Majority
or the NRA, to break all their fingers so they could never even type their
poison words again. My change of mind about this began when I watched a public
access cable TV show produced by the KKK. The thing was so utterly stupid I was
glad no one censored it. I think the people with the dumbest, most ignorant,
most asshole-ish beliefs should be given free prime-time network access. There
would be no better way to show the world just how stupid their ideas really are
than to let them explain it for themselves. (Actually when I get tapes of
American TV from friends, I wonder if this isn't already happening.)
I know what you're thinking, sometimes jerks like these can be very convincing,
if not to a majority then to a fanatical minority who are crazy enough to start
trying to put those idiotic notions into practice. BRING 'EM ON, THEN! The
idiots out there who'd fall for drivel like that are out there anyway, make
them show themselves so the rest of us can identify the bastards and remove
them from our midst. The sooner, the better.
Cuz believe it or don't, there always have been and there always will be a lot
more sensible people in the world than there are idiots. I know that's hard to
believe when you're standing in line at the post office with exact change in
your hand waiting to buy three stamps and there are twelve morons in front of
you with unwrapped wooden ponies for their nephews in Peoria going, "Do you
have a box this can fit in?" But I still believe there are more basically
intelligent people than there are complete dumb-asses. And that means that in
terms of sheer numbers alone we have the advantage. Truth is power. It's the
Ultimate Power. Just try going against it. You'll always fail.
Always.
Someone deciding to join the marines and go to Iraq at this time - and let's not forget that this fine bunch of lads are responsible for at least one known massacre there - because he was 'born to do it', is about as close as you can get to a perfect definition of idiot, and he needs to be told so in no uncertain terms. There are enough idiots already. They have an unfortunate habit of getting elected to office or being given guns in some countries. In the US they seem to do both, which is just unfathomable. These are not good precedents to encourage. Instead of being written letters telling them how wonderful and supported they are in their noble calling to shoot people and blow things up, we should be confining these kids to Ikeas in the outer suburbs, where they are at least more limited in the harm that they can inflict on themselves or others.
If aforementioned thimble brain can't be stopped from his single minded pursuit of sheer and blatant stupidity, then it also behoves anyone who does have a brain cell or two still knocking about to let any prospective lovers know, in no uncertain terms, that this person is indeed phenomenally stupid, (not withstanding that this kid can string a sentence together, talk for hours on end and throw in the odd word that sounds intelligent), as only those who are completely clueless about war, what happens in war and what has been going on in the world for the last three years can be, (we in Europe call this 'News', 'Current Affairs', or information by the way, some Americans have discovered it, but it's usually only found in obscure places there, where the networks can't fit in an advertisement for something innane for some reason). Hell, even some Republicans in the US can string a sentence together and sound as if they're actually saying something that has a sort of meaning, and enough monkeys, working at it over time, will indeed come up with some interesting verse I'm sure. So what? Does that mean we should be touting them as the next poet laureate or electing them? I think not.
I would say that the imperative is to get this guy to use whatever he does have left above his neck so that he doesn't go and get an arm and leg blown off, get himself killed, or worse still kill others, and if he doesn't use what he's got, then the imperative is to get the person who cares about him to start using their grey matter at least, not talking about how maybe a few months spent being shot at, mortared and killing others will 'better' him in some way. I also know full well that this advice will not be taken. I have a strange premonition though (call it a hunch from nowhere if you like) that in a couple of years time, the woman concerned will have to admit to herself that this guy, if he went ahead with this lunacy, was indeed an utter and complete mong. If what I've said is seen as more offensive than a healthy young guy going off to kill people or to get killed, and that the concern is more with whether someone should be writing to him and let him know that she fancies him, there's something very very wrong going on and this is not a Buddhist forum.
Certainly telling some guy he's dumb for going to war (especially this one) is pretty minor compared to how incredibly bad things are over there because we went to war. Still, I think if you would have explained, as you have done now, why you think he's an idiot there along with the first statement you made, I would have had less of a problem & I think you would have received less of a negative reaction. Usually, flinging insults without explanation is not an effective form of communication. Now that I hear your POV, your statement seems much less inappropriate than when it stood unexplained.
And I certainly do not to want to be some lovey-dovey, fluffy-bunny buddhist here. I am simply speaking of effectiveness.
I agree, not1. Finding a way to let someone know he's an idiot for a course of action he's chosen without calling him an idiot is called "skillful means." While I agree that conflict is not to be avoided, as ZM said, that doesn't mean you use a bulldozer when a gentle nudge will accomplish the same thing.
I agree, not1. Finding a way to let someone know he's an idiot for a course of action he's chosen without calling him an idiot is called "skillful means." While I agree that conflict is not to be avoided, as ZM said, that doesn't mean you use a bulldozer when a gentle nudge will accomplish the same thing.
Palzang
Of course, there will be times when calling someone an idiot will be the most skillful thing to do. I just don't think this was one of those times.
I agree, not1. Finding a way to let someone know he's an idiot for a course of action he's chosen without calling him an idiot is called "skillful means." While I agree that conflict is not to be avoided, as ZM said, that doesn't mean you use a bulldozer when a gentle nudge will accomplish the same thing.
Palzang
Tact (or skillful speech or skillful means) = being able to tell someone to "go to Hell" in such a way that they actually look forward to the trip.
-bf
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2006
Or as I heard it described:
"Tact: The art of building a fire under somebody without getting your fingers burnt."
I agree, not1. Finding a way to let someone know he's an idiot for a course of action he's chosen without calling him an idiot is called "skillful means." While I agree that conflict is not to be avoided, as ZM said, that doesn't mean you use a bulldozer when a gentle nudge will accomplish the same thing.
Palzang
If a person is so delusional that they really believe that killing is a good thing to do, it'll take a lot more than a gentle nudge and I do respectfully disagree that explanation was warranted. It seems to be stating the simply obvious that joining the marines and going to Iraq at this time is idiocy, particularly on a Buddhist forum. "Finding a way to let someone know he's an idiot for a course of action he's chosen without calling him an idiot" is not skilfull means in such a situation, it's beating around the bush and dissembling in my opinion.
Well, yeah, but the target of your venom is never even going to see your response. So what's the point? No one is more against the war (or any war) than I am, but as for the soldiers themselves, they're just poor, delusional sentient beings like the rest of us, for the most part (some, of course, are like Col. Kilgore and love war and killing and the military BS).
I honestly must say I am disapointed by how this thread turned. Some people seem to take more offense on the use of the word idiot than actually joining the army with an almost foreseeable destination: A war based on propaganda, frauds and hoaxes, bringing misery to millions of people. Karma, or more precisely, the non-predictabilty of fruits sometimes seem to act as apologizes for deeds. A flick posted in with good intentsions to pacify the debate is then labeled (forgive me if i am projecting) as poor taste of a user.
Some day we will end up with people discussing what words they use while real killing out there goes on. Or maybe the time already came long ago and we are into it since ages. Oh well.....
I am the last one to have no compassion for agressors, but soldiers going to iraq thinking that they do a rigtheous job makes me angry, I can understand ZMs sentiment. If there were an exit strategy and a reasonable plan in place, I would feel less or not angry for people joining the army, going to iraq and think they are doing an altruistic job. Don`t mistake me for a soldier basher, I know what it means to have fought on the wrong side from my family, and I never accused them at all for what they have done, they had to bear enough sh** for themselves and did not need my petty moral. Warning people though, even drastically, I find ok, since it can prevent them falling into misery
**On a different note, I always saw Zenmonk as somewhat highfalutin and fairly out of touch with the world. I realize now that I was never more wrong. The intellectual honesty and fearlessness of other's opinions is quite enobling.
I think by arguing semantics here is to miss the point. Because for being Buddhists and so non-attached to labels and names, we sure seem to take offense to simple words like 'idiot' by the look of this thread. It reminds me of the Daily Show debate between John Stewart and John Oliver. Rather than discuss what to do in Iraq, they spend the whole interview arguing over whether or not they should call it a 'civil war' or not.
A civil war? You mean the ongoing struggle between sectarian insurgent groups? The Fath Based Melee?
It is humorous but makes a point. They then argue on whether or not their arguement can be labelled as semantics.
A minor linguistic flare up between two parties of different terminalogical points of view?
Judging from the standards of speech presented by posters, if we cannot call someone an idiot, we should not call them nice or good either. "Well, their actions are good, it does not necssarily reflect who they really are. It doesn't make them a good person...." What does it make them then?
We are more concerned about someone's sensitivities (and they probably don't have many if they want to join a war). We fail to ignore the outcomes of actions. It is simple karma as far as I am concerned. If you join the military, you have a good chance of dying in a war. One which has no end as I see it. I fail to see it is at all honorable to kill a bunch of people with the illusion of 'defending freedom'. I know this is very unpartriotic of me, but I think nationalism is quite a big problem in this whole mess anyway and is completely overrated.
We need to stop being offended by everything. George Carlin warned of the 'pussification' of the modern man. We can't be so soft and touchy fealy about what people say to us. Let's take what is said, read carefully, and respond accordingly. We as a society and as a world community cannot and should not sacrifice free speech out of fear of 'someone's hurt feelings'. To do so is an atrocity.
So let's wipe the tears, put your best poker face on, and let the debates continue.
I have to say that I'm kind of sad at how all of this has turned out.
I have to say that while I agree with what ZM has stated - I feel it could have been stated better.
Part of moving towards enlightenment, in my opinion, is knowing what to say and when to say it. Sometimes, placating someone with kinds words and then dropping hints doesn't really get the point through to a person. They are so caught up with their thoughts and emotions that nothing but a figurative "slap in the face" will grab their attention and help them re-focus.
We see this in the teachings of Buddha. The Buddha didn't molly-coddle everyone. Sometimes his words and actions were very direct and shocking. Other times, his teachings were soothing. I believe it depended on the situation. Having attained enlightenment - it must be easier to figure out how to deal with a specific person regarding a specific situation.
I think that ZM, coming from the tradition that he does (Zen), believes that sometimes you have to shock people into a realization or specific thought process. I find that to be one of the oddities of some Japanese traditions and Zen. We've all read the stories about some Zen student who asked a certain question and the teacher thought that by chopping off all their arms and legs - it would help this student reach enlightenment - or something bizarre like that.
I believe ZM should have tailored his words regarding the situation - given that we are dealing with a young person still learning to deal with things and emotions that the rest of us have had to opportunity to become jaded to.
I believe Sabine should have recognized that maybe ZM was being so terse because maybe he really does wish good things for her. The advice he was giving could have pushing someone to think, "Hmmm... I'm a Buddhist. Given my druthers, I would be a pacifist. I hate war. And yet, I'm attracted to someone who idolizes military. Is this a good match for me? Is this going to cause me pain or suffering in the future? Whether it comes in the form of a loved one dying or in the form of trying to come to grips knowing that your loved one went to another country and killed it's native people."
There is a lot going on with this thread. I just wish it could have gone on a little better.
given that we are dealing with a young person still learning to deal with things and emotions that the rest of us have had to opportunity to become jaded to.
"We've all read the stories about some Zen student who asked a certain question and the teacher thought that by chopping off all their arms and legs - it would help this student reach enlightenment - or something bizarre like that... "
I do believe we've found a good suggestion here. :rockon:
One time I asked ZM what I should do to gain enlightenment:
I still don't know why he recommended that I get some vaseline, purchase a live chicken and remove my clothing that had ANYTHING to do with enlightenment.
Only because you didn't do things in the proper order. With the chicken's eyes covered with vaseline, unecessary suffering would have been averted when you removed your clothes. It's all in the detail I tell ya.
I thought about my post in this thread many times latley, and I can not say more than I was a complete idiot, wrote unskillfully, being totally ignorant of the feelings for other people. Again, this post said more about me than about others. If I had my emotions controlled, uneccessary suffering could have been avioded.
I apologize for the role I played and it only proves that I have to develop better emotional controll before posting again.
I cannot do more than apologize and promise to try to do better next time.
It's not you. You didn't cause or draw out or blow up or instigate this whole mess.
As Palzang points out - we're all ignorant sentient beings. And I'm sure that I am more ignorant than most.
It just pisses me off that everyone has a fucking point to be made. Everyone has to draw a fucking line in the sand.
And when it's all said and done with - what has actually been accomplished? Was it worth making your point? What has been gained. What has actually been lost.
The problem was, for my part, that I got upset, realizing it clearly, knowing I should not post, fully aware that I am in such a state and nevertheless posted. It`s a kind of weak impuls controll and thus unskillfull. It was not worth making my point at all.
" If a man speaks or acts with an impure mind, suffering will follow him as the wheel of the cart follows the beast that draws the cart." says the Dhammapada. I was in a delusioned state and remorse for my words came after my post. I took myself too serious, these are the moments where you think your words can change the whole world for the better right here and now, if you only make your point now, you see. Alas, one goes on focusing to make one`s point as sharp as possible without thinking enough for the consequences, not matter if you are right or wrong.
That`s what happend with me after careful reflection, besides ignoring that the thread originated out of a personal issue, people involved personally participating and being offended for a second about bad taste.
I do not want to make another point at all now, at very least here in this thread, I just want to give you my reflection.
"The foundation for practicing the seven-point cause and effect method is cultivating a mind of equanimity. Without this foundation you will not be able to have an impartial altruistic view, because without equanimity you will always have partiality towards your relatives and friends. Realize that you should not have prejudice, hatred, or desire towards enemies, friends, or neutral persons, thus lay a very firm foundation of equanimity." His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from 'Path to Bliss: A Practical Guide to Stages of Meditation'
As far as this particular subject is concerned,I wo'nt condemn or attack ANYONE for being in the armed forces (I know many wonderful vietnam vets with beautiful,pure hearts and permanently damaged and scarred minds who tried to serve their country as best they could after being drafted into "service"-only to be called "baby-burners"by their countrymen (women) and denied veteran's benefits from the very country that drafted them. I WO'NT CONDEMN ANY SOLDIER / BUT I WILL ( AND VEHEMENTLY DO )CONDEMN ,DECRY ,AND ATTACK THE PRACTICE OF WAR AND VIOLENCE PRACTICED ON ANY AND ALL LEVELS BY FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS!!!! WE ARE ALL HUMAN !!! WE ALL BELONG TO THE SAME SPECIES !!!! WAR AND KILLING IS WRONG ! WRONG ! WRONG!
Comments
_/\_
fair enough
_/\_
Guys who like to run around telling their friends they're Buddhists have to
work very hard at keeping up a certain pose. They've got this special
"Buddhist" way of talking, kinda like Mr. Rogers as a guest on a New age talk
show quoting lines from Richard Gere movies. Then there's this little smile
they've got stapled to their faces at all times to tell the world they've
achieved a rare state of inner peace and enlightenment. Maybe they think
they're fooling their friends. But that shit never fooled anyone. You can tell
it's really rough keeping up the pose by the way they've permanently stiffened
their facial muscles into that cute little grin so hard it looks like a plastic
mask.
People like this would be massively annoying if they weren't so God damned
funny. Whenever I get around a group of them I always feel like I've walked
into a convention of teddy bear collectors or maybe a baby powder factory or
something. It's like they've created this intensively cute fantasy world in
which there are no sharp edges and everything is all soft and warm. They love
you. They love me. They love the Bush administration. They love Saddam Hussein.
Lots and lots of icky sticky gushy sugary sweet love. You better not do
anything to contradict their fantasy or they'll -- oh my God -- they'll shoot
love beams at you to melt your cold hard heart (You think I'm kidding? I've
actually had "Buddhists" try to shoot imaginary love beams at me out of their
eyes -- No joke!).
Guys like this always want to give you their teachings. No matter what you say
to them, it's an opportunity for them to point out where you're wrong and how
your life would be so much better if you could only learn to be just like them.
"I've got this hangnail," you say. And they come right back at you with, "The
body is but an immaterial object, remain in the now and do not be bothered by
its sensations." Hey, just lend me some nail clippers and shut the fuck up, OK?
The thing that makes it real fun to piss phony Buddhists off is the fact that
when they get pissed off, it's not enough for them to just be pissed off.
They're also pissed off because they're pissed off. And they're pissed off that
they're pissed off that they're pissed off. And... well, you get it, it just
goes on like that forever.
Plus they're extra especially pissed off that the guy who's pissing them off
claims to be an ordained Buddhist priest, something they've fantasized about
becoming for years. Maybe they've never even actually met a Buddhist priest
before. But they know exactly what they're supposed to be like. Buddhists
priests are supposed to be safe for guys like this. They're supposed to agree
with whatever they say. They're supposed to be lovey dovey people who'd never
do or say anything that could ever bother anyone.
When I used to get these just absolutely poisonously angry e-mails from guys
like this, I made the mistake of saying stuff like, "I'm very sorry what I
wrote upset you." Really, though, I meant it.
But boy does that ever tick off a "Buddhist!" The last thing they'll admit to
anyone in the world is that something yanked their chain. They're above that
sort of thing, you see, since Buddhism showed them The Light. And they consider
it an insult to be apologized to. So now not only are they so mad they could
spit (and even madder at the fact that they're mad in the first place), they
have to pretend they're not mad, which gets them even hotter under the collar.
Reading what they write I swear I can hear them just slamming away at their
keyboards like Sean Penn wailing on some tabloid reporter's face.
I'd like to believe maybe a couple of these guys took a few deep breaths and
thought to themselves, "Hey, maybe there's a little problem here." But I tend
to doubt it. See, they'd already figured out what the problem was. It's that
guy who writes the stupid Buddhist web page! Buddhism is supposed to calm you,
soothe you. It's supposed to be stilling. Kind of like a lullaby from mommy.
When someone starts using Buddhism in a way that makes people angry --
especially people who've devoted so much time and effort to memorizing every
little tid-bit in every book at the local Barnes and Nobles with "Zen" in the
title -- well, that's (pant, gasp) that's just... (twitch, twitch) that's just
not right!
But that kind of gooey candy coated garbage isn't Buddhism at all. Buddhism is
realism. And reality is rarely soothing. It's not a warm fuzzy blanket you can
curl up into. Sometimes it's ice cold and hard as a rock. It's got all kinds of
jagged edges and nasty little pointy bits that can scrape you up pretty bad.
Ah, but here's where Buddhism comes in. That stuff can only hurt you when you
believe it's something different from you. When you discover that that
coldness, those jaggedy edges, all those nasty little things you wish you could
avoid are really just you, when you see that what's hurting you isn't the stuff
outside, but your reaction to the stuff you encounter, then everything changes.
Inner balance doesn't come from finding a clever way of hiding from or steeling
yourself up against what you don't like in life. It comes from facing it head
on.
Nishijima once said to me, "It's important to face hated information." I'd been
talking to him about some stuff which I found very disturbing to read about.
His advice was to read as much of that stuff as I could get my hands on. And
y'know, when I did that, I started to see right through that stuff, to see that
what I thought was powerful and even dangerous to my psyche was really nothing
at all. Just words typed by some human being who saw the world in a certain
way. Big, fat, hairy deal.
If my "Buddhist" friends out there in computer land were able to see things in
a realistic way, they'd see that that's all my writing was too. Just words.
What's far more important than reacting to words is to see just how that
process of reacting to words works. You've got to say to yourself, "Who am I?
And why is it that I'm getting this kind of a reaction to what I'm reading?"
Why is it so important for you to establish that these words are WRONG. Why do
you feel the need to try and silence those who say the things you don't like?
Or on the other side what is it that makes you think certain words are right,
that they're beautiful and stilling. What is it that drives you to seek out
stilling, calming words while doing your utmost to avoid anything that disturbs
you?
I hate bigotry, racism, sexism and just plain stupidity and ignorance in
whatever flavor it comes. For years I tried to shout it down. I wished I had
the power to somehow rip the larynxes out of every member of the Moral Majority
or the NRA, to break all their fingers so they could never even type their
poison words again. My change of mind about this began when I watched a public
access cable TV show produced by the KKK. The thing was so utterly stupid I was
glad no one censored it. I think the people with the dumbest, most ignorant,
most asshole-ish beliefs should be given free prime-time network access. There
would be no better way to show the world just how stupid their ideas really are
than to let them explain it for themselves. (Actually when I get tapes of
American TV from friends, I wonder if this isn't already happening.)
I know what you're thinking, sometimes jerks like these can be very convincing,
if not to a majority then to a fanatical minority who are crazy enough to start
trying to put those idiotic notions into practice. BRING 'EM ON, THEN! The
idiots out there who'd fall for drivel like that are out there anyway, make
them show themselves so the rest of us can identify the bastards and remove
them from our midst. The sooner, the better.
Cuz believe it or don't, there always have been and there always will be a lot
more sensible people in the world than there are idiots. I know that's hard to
believe when you're standing in line at the post office with exact change in
your hand waiting to buy three stamps and there are twelve morons in front of
you with unwrapped wooden ponies for their nephews in Peoria going, "Do you
have a box this can fit in?" But I still believe there are more basically
intelligent people than there are complete dumb-asses. And that means that in
terms of sheer numbers alone we have the advantage. Truth is power. It's the
Ultimate Power. Just try going against it. You'll always fail.
Always.
Someone deciding to join the marines and go to Iraq at this time - and let's not forget that this fine bunch of lads are responsible for at least one known massacre there - because he was 'born to do it', is about as close as you can get to a perfect definition of idiot, and he needs to be told so in no uncertain terms. There are enough idiots already. They have an unfortunate habit of getting elected to office or being given guns in some countries. In the US they seem to do both, which is just unfathomable. These are not good precedents to encourage. Instead of being written letters telling them how wonderful and supported they are in their noble calling to shoot people and blow things up, we should be confining these kids to Ikeas in the outer suburbs, where they are at least more limited in the harm that they can inflict on themselves or others.
If aforementioned thimble brain can't be stopped from his single minded pursuit of sheer and blatant stupidity, then it also behoves anyone who does have a brain cell or two still knocking about to let any prospective lovers know, in no uncertain terms, that this person is indeed phenomenally stupid, (not withstanding that this kid can string a sentence together, talk for hours on end and throw in the odd word that sounds intelligent), as only those who are completely clueless about war, what happens in war and what has been going on in the world for the last three years can be, (we in Europe call this 'News', 'Current Affairs', or information by the way, some Americans have discovered it, but it's usually only found in obscure places there, where the networks can't fit in an advertisement for something innane for some reason). Hell, even some Republicans in the US can string a sentence together and sound as if they're actually saying something that has a sort of meaning, and enough monkeys, working at it over time, will indeed come up with some interesting verse I'm sure. So what? Does that mean we should be touting them as the next poet laureate or electing them? I think not.
I would say that the imperative is to get this guy to use whatever he does have left above his neck so that he doesn't go and get an arm and leg blown off, get himself killed, or worse still kill others, and if he doesn't use what he's got, then the imperative is to get the person who cares about him to start using their grey matter at least, not talking about how maybe a few months spent being shot at, mortared and killing others will 'better' him in some way. I also know full well that this advice will not be taken. I have a strange premonition though (call it a hunch from nowhere if you like) that in a couple of years time, the woman concerned will have to admit to herself that this guy, if he went ahead with this lunacy, was indeed an utter and complete mong. If what I've said is seen as more offensive than a healthy young guy going off to kill people or to get killed, and that the concern is more with whether someone should be writing to him and let him know that she fancies him, there's something very very wrong going on and this is not a Buddhist forum.
quit beating around the bush & tell us how you really feel. :tonguec:
_/\_
And I certainly do not to want to be some lovey-dovey, fluffy-bunny buddhist here. I am simply speaking of effectiveness.
take care
_/\_
Palzang
Of course, there will be times when calling someone an idiot will be the most skillful thing to do. I just don't think this was one of those times.
metta
_/\_
Palzang
Tact (or skillful speech or skillful means) = being able to tell someone to "go to Hell" in such a way that they actually look forward to the trip.
-bf
"Tact: The art of building a fire under somebody without getting your fingers burnt."
But that's a good one, BF....
And on that note.... Exit Left.
Happy Hols everyone!!
If a person is so delusional that they really believe that killing is a good thing to do, it'll take a lot more than a gentle nudge and I do respectfully disagree that explanation was warranted. It seems to be stating the simply obvious that joining the marines and going to Iraq at this time is idiocy, particularly on a Buddhist forum. "Finding a way to let someone know he's an idiot for a course of action he's chosen without calling him an idiot" is not skilfull means in such a situation, it's beating around the bush and dissembling in my opinion.
Palzang
Some day we will end up with people discussing what words they use while real killing out there goes on. Or maybe the time already came long ago and we are into it since ages. Oh well.....
I am the last one to have no compassion for agressors, but soldiers going to iraq thinking that they do a rigtheous job makes me angry, I can understand ZMs sentiment. If there were an exit strategy and a reasonable plan in place, I would feel less or not angry for people joining the army, going to iraq and think they are doing an altruistic job. Don`t mistake me for a soldier basher, I know what it means to have fought on the wrong side from my family, and I never accused them at all for what they have done, they had to bear enough sh** for themselves and did not need my petty moral. Warning people though, even drastically, I find ok, since it can prevent them falling into misery
Regards
I think by arguing semantics here is to miss the point. Because for being Buddhists and so non-attached to labels and names, we sure seem to take offense to simple words like 'idiot' by the look of this thread. It reminds me of the Daily Show debate between John Stewart and John Oliver. Rather than discuss what to do in Iraq, they spend the whole interview arguing over whether or not they should call it a 'civil war' or not.
A civil war? You mean the ongoing struggle between sectarian insurgent groups? The Fath Based Melee?
It is humorous but makes a point. They then argue on whether or not their arguement can be labelled as semantics.
A minor linguistic flare up between two parties of different terminalogical points of view?
Judging from the standards of speech presented by posters, if we cannot call someone an idiot, we should not call them nice or good either. "Well, their actions are good, it does not necssarily reflect who they really are. It doesn't make them a good person...." What does it make them then?
We are more concerned about someone's sensitivities (and they probably don't have many if they want to join a war). We fail to ignore the outcomes of actions. It is simple karma as far as I am concerned. If you join the military, you have a good chance of dying in a war. One which has no end as I see it. I fail to see it is at all honorable to kill a bunch of people with the illusion of 'defending freedom'. I know this is very unpartriotic of me, but I think nationalism is quite a big problem in this whole mess anyway and is completely overrated.
We need to stop being offended by everything. George Carlin warned of the 'pussification' of the modern man. We can't be so soft and touchy fealy about what people say to us. Let's take what is said, read carefully, and respond accordingly. We as a society and as a world community cannot and should not sacrifice free speech out of fear of 'someone's hurt feelings'. To do so is an atrocity.
So let's wipe the tears, put your best poker face on, and let the debates continue.
I have to say that while I agree with what ZM has stated - I feel it could have been stated better.
Part of moving towards enlightenment, in my opinion, is knowing what to say and when to say it. Sometimes, placating someone with kinds words and then dropping hints doesn't really get the point through to a person. They are so caught up with their thoughts and emotions that nothing but a figurative "slap in the face" will grab their attention and help them re-focus.
We see this in the teachings of Buddha. The Buddha didn't molly-coddle everyone. Sometimes his words and actions were very direct and shocking. Other times, his teachings were soothing. I believe it depended on the situation. Having attained enlightenment - it must be easier to figure out how to deal with a specific person regarding a specific situation.
I think that ZM, coming from the tradition that he does (Zen), believes that sometimes you have to shock people into a realization or specific thought process. I find that to be one of the oddities of some Japanese traditions and Zen. We've all read the stories about some Zen student who asked a certain question and the teacher thought that by chopping off all their arms and legs - it would help this student reach enlightenment - or something bizarre like that.
I believe ZM should have tailored his words regarding the situation - given that we are dealing with a young person still learning to deal with things and emotions that the rest of us have had to opportunity to become jaded to.
I believe Sabine should have recognized that maybe ZM was being so terse because maybe he really does wish good things for her. The advice he was giving could have pushing someone to think, "Hmmm... I'm a Buddhist. Given my druthers, I would be a pacifist. I hate war. And yet, I'm attracted to someone who idolizes military. Is this a good match for me? Is this going to cause me pain or suffering in the future? Whether it comes in the form of a loved one dying or in the form of trying to come to grips knowing that your loved one went to another country and killed it's native people."
There is a lot going on with this thread. I just wish it could have gone on a little better.
You know I wish you all the best...
-bf
I liked this line a lot:
metta
_/\_
'Dig that hole, catch the su-uun'
Sorry, Pink Floyd moment.
_/\_
Palzang
"Camp aphorisms" yet!
I do believe we've found a good suggestion here. :rockon:
One time I asked ZM what I should do to gain enlightenment:
I still don't know why he recommended that I get some vaseline, purchase a live chicken and remove my clothing that had ANYTHING to do with enlightenment.
I'm still very confused.
And that poor chicken.
-bf
-bf
Oh stop.
You weren't complaining last night.
Ooops!
-bf
YOU ARE A VERY VERY INTELLIGENT MAN!!
METTA!
Because he gets naked with chickens???
I don't feel that way right now, Colleen.
In fact I'm very upset with the way things have been going while I've been gone for a couple of days.
This is absolutely fucked.
-bf
I apologize for the role I played and it only proves that I have to develop better emotional controll before posting again.
I cannot do more than apologize and promise to try to do better next time.
It's not you. You didn't cause or draw out or blow up or instigate this whole mess.
As Palzang points out - we're all ignorant sentient beings. And I'm sure that I am more ignorant than most.
It just pisses me off that everyone has a fucking point to be made. Everyone has to draw a fucking line in the sand.
And when it's all said and done with - what has actually been accomplished? Was it worth making your point? What has been gained. What has actually been lost.
Isn't it a pity. Isn't it a shame.
-bf
The problem was, for my part, that I got upset, realizing it clearly, knowing I should not post, fully aware that I am in such a state and nevertheless posted. It`s a kind of weak impuls controll and thus unskillfull. It was not worth making my point at all.
" If a man speaks or acts with an impure mind, suffering will follow him as the wheel of the cart follows the beast that draws the cart." says the Dhammapada. I was in a delusioned state and remorse for my words came after my post. I took myself too serious, these are the moments where you think your words can change the whole world for the better right here and now, if you only make your point now, you see. Alas, one goes on focusing to make one`s point as sharp as possible without thinking enough for the consequences, not matter if you are right or wrong.
That`s what happend with me after careful reflection, besides ignoring that the thread originated out of a personal issue, people involved personally participating and being offended for a second about bad taste.
I do not want to make another point at all now, at very least here in this thread, I just want to give you my reflection.
And yes, it is a shame and a pitty.
I understand.
-bf
And I'm absolutely POSITIVE that I'm right about this....
His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from 'Path to Bliss: A Practical Guide to Stages of Meditation'
Merry Christmas, everyone!
Palzang