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Whaddya all think?
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Comments
It was pretty easy to find. Maybe you should actually try "looking" ... hmmm? Yes???
http://www.vegemite.com.au/
-bf
As for the Japanese acceptance of their karma, Buddhism runs deep there, so the idea of karma is part of their makeup. You might say they receive it with their mother's milk. There were many Japanese who did not like at all what their country was up to in those days but were afraid to speak up, just like in Germany. Unfortunately many of the Buddhist leaders of the time parroted the nationalistic theme - with a few notable exceptions (Shunryu Suzuki Roshi being one). The period after WWII was a time of great national shame for the Japanese, but I think they handled it quite well, generally speaking.
Palzang
metta
_/\_
Palzang
Speaking of Miyazake, did you know there is a Totoro store in Kamakura?
well okay. point taken.
okay we want to start bashing countries involved in the war of the stomachs? okay..
McDonalds
enough said?:rocker:
It's gross and you know it.
You don't see us opening up McVegemites over here, do YA?????
-bf
Sorry I am not much of a scholar. But I will try to dig up some sources. It may take a while, I prefer non-electronic sources of information.
The quantity of the atrocities may certainly be less on one side than another, but this isn`t about quantity of the negative actions it is about the negative quality of them. And of course it is going to be hard to find the information as easily as one should if you see my view that these things happened/are happening and yet are being forgotten because done by the winning side, or else done in a just cause. But ends don`t justify the means, do they? At least not all the time.
For the moment I regret that I have nothing better to offer than my somewhat vague memories of a book that I thought was perfectly respectable in which I read that Australian units in WWII were known for taking a policy of "take no prisoners". What might that mean in practical reality? Shooting surrendering soldiers is the same as murdering POWs. Perhaps you don`t call that an atrocity, but I do. A surrendering soldier IS a POW. Maybe I am too credulous, but I don`t really find it at all hard to believe. I mean we Americans and Australians committed genocide on the aboriginals of our respective continents. Every Tasmanian died down to the last man woman and child. And several years back they opened up to the U.S. public previously secret files about WWII. All kinds of stuff came out and it was in well-known magazines like Newsweek and Time: stuff Americans did like sinking captured hospital ships with all the patients and doctors and everybody. One particular thing I saw on American TV was a film made by a US submarine captain. After sinking a Japanese ship, they surfaced and used their deck gun to shoot all the survivors floating on the sea in their life preservers. That they wanted to film themselves doing it speaks volumes, I would say. The fire-bombing done by the British and Americans is a well-known enough (but not really remembered enough, almost as if Dresden were an isolated case!) Civilians were the target and were not some kind of "collateral dammage." It is known about, it`s docmumented, but it isn`t lamented enough. And therefore we do it again, now, in Iraq and Afghanistan. No doubt heroism goes on there among our soldiers as well, though.
I`m trying not to harbour ill-will either towards my own nation or others`. I think the fact is, each one of us in previous lives has commited untold numbers of heinous crimes. As I`ve said before, there is plenty of mud to go around.
And I just have to ask, in the case of the American submarine commander, did you ever consider that maybe it wasn't an atrocity? Could the submarine have rescued the ship's crew? Probably not. Space is very limited in a submarine, especially the ones they were using then, and no doubt the incident occured in enemy territory, which would have made it very dangerous for the sub to try a rescue. So the choice the captain had was abandon the crew to their fate - which most likely would mean they would very soon become shark food - or kill them so as not to prolong their suffering. What would you do? Such choices are never easy, and one should refrain from casting judgment on ignorant sentient beings who were trying to do the best they could under horrendous circumstances. As for the Australian policy of "take no prisoners", if indeed that is true, one should also keep in mind that Japanese soldiers were trained to never surrender. They would often pretend to surrender, only to detonate a hidden grenade when the Allied soldiers approached. So again, what would you do?
The same argument can be made for the use of atomic weapons against Japan. President Truman was faced with a horrible choice. Either he could refuse to use the weapons and go ahead with the planned invasion of Japan against a fierce and entrenched enemy who, again, vowed never to surrender (casualty estimates for Allied soldiers in such an invasion were about 1.5 million dead), or use the weapons to demonstrate to the Japanese that further resistance was futile. Again, what would you do? I certainly can't fault Truman's choice, such as it was.
It is said that when one's karma is to be reborn in the hell realms, one is reborn as a national leader as that will certainly accomplish the result.
Palzang
respect to you.
Thank you for being clear and kind in our disagreement.
They only have meanings associated with them.
AHGHHHGHH!
On this point I just refuse to agree to disagree.
Dog-gone IT!!!!!!
As I stated, if somebody approaches me directly and specifically requests I remove the avatar, I would do so without hesitation.
Nobody has yet done so, and in fact, much interesting, thought-provoking and stimulating dicussion has ensued (although I have some doubts about the vegemite/McDonalds issue.....Is the Big red 'M' a current symbol of the triumph of Capitalist profitteering over common sense eating? Will it always mean this, or will it be given some other significance,in time?)
An unequivocal and explanatory request to delete the avatar will bring about the desired result.
But judging by your post, VWP, you also, may be the subject of confusion and mixed feelings.....?
And I appreciate your view, VWP. Unfortunately, your posts aside, I seem to detect a trend in modern-day Japan to forget the bad things that happened during the war and to glorify the Japanese military of that time. I think that's dangerous, though perhaps no more dangerous than the current trend in the US (and elsewhere) to glorify military exploits and indeed the military solution to so-called problems. Obviously it's not just Japan where this is a problem, but I also think the Japanese need to be reminded every once in a while about the truth of the matter. As the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust constantly remind us (those that are still alive anyway) - Never again!
Palzang
One German said something like, "C'mon.. that happened almost 50 years ago!!!"
One Jew said something like, "Yes... it wasn't even 50 years ago that something like this could happen."
-bf
Mostly, dear Pilgrim, when I read you I am astounded by clarity and conciseness, but quite often I hardly understand you at all, hoping that reading you at a later time will be of benefit, which case is certainly often true. I had to read this several times to be able to get some grasp of the depth of your thought here. However, the text I have coloured red seems imprecise to me.
Banning or outlawing symbols in the USA with our 1st amendment entitlements seems both unreasonable and undoable, but each one of us suppresses some things, even if they are just tendencies within ourselves.
Secondly, I do NOT object to the symbols PERSONALLY as much as what effects they may have on what St. Paul calls "our weaker brethren." (1 Cor 8) In like manner, I would urge any neighbour of mine to remove the Confederate flag bumper sticker from his car, saying that the kids in the neighbourhood look up to him, and does he really want this "thing" to continue. But I would accomplish nothing by jeering at his flag.
My being is NOT "strongly moved by a gestalt of lines and colours." It is much closer to the truth that sometimes impatience with either conventional or controversial matters causes me to OVERSTATE really how I feel.
I always thought the swastika was an ancient Zoroastrian symbol. Am surprised to hear that it is Buddhist. Don't really cope too well with surprises. Not interested in learning any more about the dern swastika. And I only wanna lot of peace, a little mercy, and many aids to forgetting painful things. The present world political situation is more than enough poison for me, and, I assume, for many of the other “weaker brethren,” besides myself.
Namaste
(going on retreat myself tomorrow.)
I don`t have any problem at all with that Buddhist symbol in and of itself. And your use of it has indeed given rise to an interesting interchange of ideas. My own discomfort stemmed from comments of other forum participants on this thread, comments which have made me aware of some of my own "baggage" concerning Japan.
Palzang:
Good point, and I do think it is true that many people in Japan (and elsewhere) are far from being conscious enough of misdeeds done by their nation.
But your words about the American captain shooting people possibly to save them from becoming shark food make me want to mention the fact that my dearest Japanese friend`s grandfather was a communications officer during WWII in the Japanese navy. He died, just about three years ago, at the venerable age of 94, and though I did not have the privelage of meeting him, my friend describes her grandfather as a man of such wisdom and compassion that his eyes could look into you and understand you and speak to you without the need for words to be uttered. He survived his ship beeing sunk. I am glad the sharks didn`t get him either, or else my friend wouldn`t exist!
Palzang
Thank you, BTS, but it has bothered someone on forum enough for them to ask me directy to remove it. In line with my original statement, I have duly complied. hence the Buddha-kid....
It does rather suggest that any avatar may have the potential to offend someone.
.........Doncha like my Buddha-kid - ?!
You know what they say, Simon, about pleasing all of the people....
Palzang
I thought that was about fooling all of the people!
Your Buddha-kid is, of course, an affront to:
- the childless;
- the child-haters;
- those who demand 'historical accuracy';
- those who hate anything schmaltzy
It is, quite obviously, a deliberate insult to the god Cupid and you should be tied to a rock and consumed by the Kraken.Can I 'fess up, 'Rica?
I always admired you 'cuz you seemed so UNATTACHED to your avatar. You changed it so frequently.
Federica's Current Avatar: (sweet!)
I met an old guy on the beach here who goes around wearing a US Navy cap. He likes talking to foreigners, so he came up to our group (we were doing a litter clean up of the beach ) and started talking to us in English. He said something like: "I am a friend of the US navy. I like to visit their ships when they are in port, meet and talk to US navy personnel.....I trained in WWII to be a Kamikaze pilot, but the war ended just days before I was to fly. I cried because I could not complete my mission. Now I am a friend of the US navy." I loved and respected that old man who faced death a long time ago.
All and everyone:
If we are to turn this into a general discussion of our avatars, it might be interesting. My avatar might be a bit alarming to some, and I welcome the chance to explain it a bit...
It is from one of Japan`s national treasures, located at Horyuji temple in Nara, Japan. Horyuji is one of the oldest and most important temples in Japan. The figure is a good deal over a thousand years old and is from a multi-figure group depicting the Buddha`s passing into Nirvana. This particular figure is of one of the monks who were suffering because they were attached to the physical presence of the Buddha. We might be Buddhists and practitioners and all, but then negative emotions may still come.....I hope it reminds me (and/or anyone else who might need such reminding) that I/we have/may have a long way to go yet.
* It may well be that this thread has really run its course, so I'm going to close it, for no other reasons that we are either going over previous discussion, or we're just off-topicking...
Naturally, if someone has something of further note to add, I'll be glad to open it up again.
Thank you all for your valued, concise, open-minded and thought-provoking contributions. It's been a pleasure.