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For real?

KungaTashiKungaTashi
edited January 2007 in Buddhism Basics
Ok, question for you guys...

I was reading part of a book by Thubten Chodron. It was in the section on spiritual teachers. In it she says that if you take precepts and such from someone this automatically makes them your teacher. How true is that?

Thanks in advance for the answers....

Comments

  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2007
    What about it would make it invalid?

    Palzang
  • KungaTashiKungaTashi
    edited January 2007
    ok I changed that part to say "is this true" that's more along the lines of what I was asking. How true is Thubten Chodrons statement that taking precepts from someone automatically makes them your teacher? Does that work better?
  • EngyoEngyo
    edited January 2007
    My other question would be whether this is meant to apply to all Buddhism, or if it is in the context of a particular tradition or school.

    I ask, because teacher has one context in my tradition, and sensei or master has a very different context. I can have many teachers, and I would definitely consider the person I first took refuge from to be one of them. If I were to take vows to become a minister, then I would seek out a sensei, which is a very different situation.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2007
    I'm pretty sure that's one of the rules in Buddhism. I think it was in the Eightfold Path, Appendix 3a.1-5

    You know there are so many little rules like this in Buddhism that Buddha was concerned about sharing with us.

    -bf
  • KungaTashiKungaTashi
    edited January 2007
    BF- And that's why I ask. I have yet to read these words coming from Buddha at all. Maybe it's an interpretation on a teaching he gave? I have no idea. That's why I ask, maybe someone will know where that teaching is. Jason??
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited January 2007
    I'm not really sure how much taking refuge with someone makes any sort of binding contract. While the person I took refuge with does offer meditation instruction and I'm sure I learn from them, we do not have any formal teacher-student relationship. And in my understanding, the purpose of taking refuge in the triple jewel is just that, to take refuge in the triple jewel. Perhaps this is a Tibetan or Vajrayana specific statement. I am not aware of any such injunction in the Suttas. Could you provide any more context of this statement, LFA?

    metta
    _/\_
  • KungaTashiKungaTashi
    edited January 2007
    Unfortunately there is no underlying context. Thubten Chodron is a Tibetan tradition Buddhist though so maybe you are right in assuming it is a Tibetan thing.

    not1not2 wrote:
    I'm not really sure how much taking refuge with someone makes any sort of binding contract. While the person I took refuge with does offer meditation instruction and I'm sure I learn from them, we do not have any formal teacher-student relationship. And in my understanding, the purpose of taking refuge in the triple jewel is just that, to take refuge in the triple jewel. Perhaps this is a Tibetan or Vajrayana specific statement. I am not aware of any such injunction in the Suttas. Could you provide any more context of this statement, LFA?

    metta
    _/\_
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2007
    I would think that if someone says, "if you do this you MUST do that or it invalidates everything you've just DONE" speaks volumes about that tradition. That's all I'm saying on the subject.

    If someone says, "If you do this, it would really benefit you to do THIS - but the choice is entirely up to you and I will agree or respect your decision..." I think that speaks volumes as well.

    But, I could be talking out my ass and have no problem stating that I sometimes talk out my ass because my head is up there most of the time.

    -bf
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2007
    But I would agree that if you are starting upon ANY journey - having a teacher is a wonderful thing.

    -bf
  • YogaMamaYogaMama
    edited January 2007
    buddhafoot wrote:
    But, I could be talking out my ass and have no problem stating that I sometimes talk out my ass because my head is up there most of the time.

    -bf

    We know this. :)

    Hi buddhafoot! :)
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2007
    I don't know what Ven. Chodron's reply would be, but here's something to consider. When you take refuge with a teacher, there is a very special bond formed that is not to be sneezed at. You've entered into a contract, you might say, that will last for lifetime after lifetime. The refuge vow is the one vow that lasts past this one lifetime, and whomever you take it with also has his/her part of the transaction, which is that he/she will return to samsara again and again until such time as the refugee is liberated. Now, that's from a Tibetan Buddhist viewpoint, but I don't think it's significantly different in other traditions. While you may not feel much different after taking refuge for the first time - in fact, you probably had little or no idea of what was going on - in reality it changes you forever.

    Palzang
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited January 2007
    Palzang,

    You may be right about the karmic connection, but I currently have no compunction to take this individual as a direct teacher. Now, his teacher was also there, but they live in California & I don't go to that center anymore. At least not right now.

    metta
    _/\_
  • KungaTashiKungaTashi
    edited January 2007
    Palzang,

    What your saying makes total and complete sense. I realize there is this "bond" that is forever to be, and the strength of the commitment when taking the vow. I guess I just didn't understand the whole thing that the person automatically becomes one's teacher. I guess I'm still confused as to what the real question should have been and now I'm getting lost.

    I'm lost quite a bit, maybe even as much as BF's head is in his ass.... zing....
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2007
    I'd say I'd go with not1not2's reply. Yes, there is the link, but that person may not necessarily be one's teacher in this life. However, there is also the notion that Buddha is Buddha. In other words, just because you take refuge with one manifestation of the Buddha and take another manifestation of the Buddha as your teacher, are they different?

    Palzang
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited January 2007
    :rockon:

    "SOME THINGS just can't be learned in books." I carry my teacher with me wherever I go.
  • XraymanXrayman Veteran
    edited January 2007
    According to my wife's spiritual guide? (Yea I know-whatever) He says "I should take up higher learning" does anyone know WTF that is supposed to mean? Am I a dumb sh*t that needs "repair"?-or like Nirvy says, "some things can't be learned in books"?

    p.s acording to BF he says "I aint never been proper at no book lernin'" :crazy:








    let's see if he sees this one teeheee
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2007
    I'm sorry - at this point "I" can't see this.

    These formings of "bonds" seems like just another form of attachment. Placing significance in something insignificant.

    Not to say that there shouldn't be honor or respect for the one that you are taking this vow with - but where did all these facts about how a "vow" does "this" or lasts past "that" come from?

    The skandhas of this moment have a hard time accepting all this as being fact.

    Sorry :(

    -bf
  • KungaTashiKungaTashi
    edited January 2007
    There was no fact from the beginning, just a question based on something I read in a book by Thubten Chodron.
    buddhafoot wrote:
    I'm sorry - at this point "I" can't see this.

    These formings of "bonds" seems like just another form of attachment. Placing significance in something insignificant.

    Not to say that there shouldn't be honor or respect for the one that you are taking this vow with - but where did all these facts about how a "vow" does "this" or lasts past "that" come from?

    The skandhas of this moment have a hard time accepting all this as being fact.

    Sorry :(

    -bf
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2007
    Hmmm... that may have sounded too harsh ...

    Insignificant? Possibly - in regards to the "big picture" - but it probably is something very special between the two people that do this act. But, does it have some significance in the bigger picture... I haven't seen anything that supports this.

    I meant no offense by my previous statements.

    -bf
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2007
    Looking for Answers wrote:
    There was no fact from the beginning, just a question based on something I read in a book by Thubten Chodron.

    I understand LFA...

    I was mostly speaking in regards to the statements of Pally.

    -bf
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2007
    YogaMama wrote:
    We know this. :)

    Hi buddhafoot! :)

    Hi you.

    -bf
  • KungaTashiKungaTashi
    edited January 2007
    didn't sound harsh at all, I was looking for opinions and you gave yours! :)
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2007
    I know...

    But you know how Pally's gets his pantys in a bunch.

    -bf
  • KungaTashiKungaTashi
    edited January 2007
    you said panties!
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited January 2007
    It's just karma. That's all it is. Nothing magical.

    Palzang
  • XraymanXrayman Veteran
    edited January 2007
    teehee he still didn't find it teehee haha (schoolboy laughter)
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