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Murder by Insanity and Karmha

comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran Veteran
edited June 2005 in Buddhism Today
I was just watching a thing on TV about someone who killed and was found to be insane. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Comments

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2005
    How to define insane..... Adiana's signature is one definition.... I guess Medical experts have to agree in their diagnosis.... it doesn't get the 'criminally insane' the hook though.... This neatly unites the "medication for depression" and "Death penalty" threads.....!
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2005
    Yes I don't know what to think about this subject. I knwo people are crazy and do horrible things but do we ever let them out into society?
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2005
    There are many aspects to the question you pose, Comic.

    Because you are talking about a legal definition, there is a debate to be had about what is meant by 'insane' in the medico-legal sense. We could even swap diagnoses from DSM-IVa or wherever and debate the whole topic of sanity.

    The Buddhist debate may focus on something else. How do I, as a Buddhist, look at crime and criminality? Are they different from sny other negative actions simply because they are under sanction of law? In my humble opinion, they are not.

    It could be said that, because criminal actions arise from the five poisons - attachment, aggression, delusion, pride and jealousy - we, as Buddhists, need to oppose them with quiet mind, compassion and the remedies of the Noble Eightfold Path. In the same way, the pain of the victims of crime is also to be met with the same compasionate quiet mind. We cannot judge between their need because each is trapped in dukkha.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2005
    So Simon let's look at the whole violent crime insanity. Of course are other violent criminals insane? More questions. Your thoughts?
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited June 2005
    "A Romanian Orthodox priest who faces a murder charge after ordering the crucifixion of a young nun because she was "possessed by the devil" was unrepentant as he conducted a funeral mass for his alleged victim.
    Father Daniel Corogeanu, 29, said that the nun had been "possessed by the devil" and was "beyond salvation" in life.
    He claimed that from the religious point of view, the crucifixion of Maricica Irina Cornici, 23, was "entirely justified", but admitted that he faced excommunication as well as prosecution, and was seeking a "good lawyer."
    The nun was found dead last Wednesday, gagged and chained to a cross, after nuns from her order, the Holy Trinity, called for an ambulance in the remote mountain village of Tanacu in north-eastern Romania.
    During a short funeral service at the weekend attended by 13 nuns who showed no emotion, Father Corogeanu said: "God has performed a miracle for her, finally Irina is delivered from evil."
    Romanian reporters present at the ceremony said strangle marks were clearly visible on the corpse, which lay in an open casket.
    Claps of thunder were heard as the coffin was lowered into the ground, a sign "that the will of God has been done", Father Corogeanu said.
    Prosecutors said they had charged the priest and four nuns from the order with imprisonment leading to death, after questioning all 24 resident nuns.
    For four days prior to her crucifixion, Sister Irina had been kept locked up with no food or water.
    She was imprisoned after having an argument with the priest during Sunday mass, according to locals.
    Church authorities said Father Corogeanu was banned from carrying out further duties pending an investigation and might face excommunication.
    The monastery would be closed if the accused were found guilty, a bishop said.
    A police spokesman claimed that during questioning the accused said Sister Irina had been possessed and needed to be exorcised.
    They tied her to the cross after she had "protested violently", Mrs Straub said.
    The Holy Trinity is located in one of Romania's most remote and poorest mountain dwellings, and has no electricity or running water.
    Sister Irina joined the order three months ago, after visiting a friend who lived there.
    According to medical reports she had been treated for schizophrenia."

    I found this article on the telegraph.co.uk. Well , here we have 1.religion 2.insanity 3.murder. I think that this shows how religion can really become obsessive - You truly believe that some demon has entered the body of a woman (who is probably just mentally ill) and torture her before kiling her. It could be argued that the priest himself is insane. How or why would any rational, sane person do anything like this? It seems to me that things like this first need to slow us down and think about some serious issues. We must remember that peoples minds can be flooded with delusion. How can we even begin to judge a person when we cannot fathom the things they do, or say, or think? I imagine than the Buddha had these things in mind when he instructed his bhikkhus to let worldly things go and worry only about their own actions. To try and understand and deal with this may give rise to doubts, and depressions, and discouragements. Unfortunatly I cannot be responsible for everyone. If I could be I would make sure eveyone behaved themselves. So this leaves the question of what to do with them? I think I would recreate our mental health system. I would definitly lock people who are violent and delusional away from the world. But besides trying drug and psychiatric therapies I would try to incorporate things like meditation, spirituality, etc. I know that none of them with be cured by this stuff, but I would try to make their lives livable under the circumstances, and maybe free them from some of their delusions. If we could stop hating others and always spending more money on weapons and wars we could afford this. But sadly the world doesn't work that way so I see no immediate answer without the help of the greater whole. I mean the majority voted for Bush right? The majority likes to sweep these issues under the rug because nobody wants to be responsible, and nobody wants to let the suffering of these people get in the way of their happiness and enjoyment.
    It's sad taking care of these people and never seeing improvement. Also the violent ones are scary and cause fear to arise. Out of sight out of mind seems to be the concensus. You know we all have a little delsuion in us. We are all insane to an extent. Some are just a little more so than the rest. Are we so different? I think we all deserve the same amount of compassion and respect.
    (A note, I am not against Christianity. I just saw the article and used it as an example. It could be any religion-Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Paganism, etc. Without taking a step back to observe these things impartialy we may get too caught up in them, and this gives rise to delusion. The religions are not bad themselves, we just can get out of hand when we become obsessive over them.)
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2005
    Thank you so much for posting that, Elohim. Having read the article, I would say that there are as many ways and means of dealing with crime, insanity and murder as there are the people who perpetrate these acts.... In an ideal world, every situation would be dealt with as unique and individual. No two people are the same... even if you have two schizophrenics, they're bound to be wildly different in their suffering..... But they may be given the same medication and prescribed the same treatment.....

    It reminds me of the story (briefly, because I don't want to crash this topic) of the three monks who want to get to the nice long expanse of sandy beach, to meditiate, but their way is barred by a wide stretch of shingle and stones.... the first says,
    "These stones are so sharp, painful and hard on the feet! We must take each individual stone and wrap it in its' own silk padded cover!"
    "No", says the second, "far better to weave a wonderful carpet, and cover them all, hide them, and make it so much easier for us to cross them!"
    The third one says .....
    ...."Why don't we just put our sandals on?"

    We cannot change the world, nor hide it under a carpet, hoping that it will 'go away'. We have to start with ourselves, and our own attitudes. If we are 'correct' in our dealings with others, then at least we can live with ourselves..... and, by consequence, them.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2005
    So Fed you are saying that we should sheild ourselves just enough to cross obstacles in our path?
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2005
    What I'm saying is that, no matter what happens to us externally, or what happens at large and in general, the important thing is to remain constant, and Within Ourselves... it's not what happens out there that affects us... it's how we perceive it and PERMIT it to affect us that will inevitably colour our perception.
    Say for example the temperature in London drops to minus 12°c in the winter. Naturally, everyone would complain at how cold it is, and wrap up warm and snuggly in their coats, hats scarves and mittens.... but look at this guy! Strolling down Oxford Street in his shirtsleeves!
    "Hey, man, are you mad? It's minus twelve here! You must be insane!!"
    "No, I'm an eskimo on holiday!" He would laugh!
    So you see? What's one thing for one person will be perceived differently by another. We cannot judge - we have no RIGHT to judge! - what others do and how they behave. Sure, we can compare their behaviour to the Eightfold path or the 5 precepts... But NOT judgementally. Who knows how, if you were able to live their life, how you would react in their place? Mental torment is a terrible thing. And every hardened criminal 'suffers' from mental Torment. Better then, to look within. To calm the mind, release judgement and opinion and declare that this is how things are. This is how this person behaved. Choice - Consequence.
    Punishment, by all means, but through the correct channels and always, always with Compassion.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2005
    There is no such thing as bad weather, only the wrong clothes!
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2005
    Trust you Simon, to say everything i have just said in one, pithy succinct and apposite comment! :lol:
    I laugh, (with deep affection and respect my Dharmabrother) because normally your posts are longer than mine.... But thank you. I will keep this as a quotation - and as a reminder that a Fool (or village idiot ) is known by a multitude of words!!
    All with sincere good humour - thanks for highlighting my afternoon!

    LovingMettaKindness and *hug*!!
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