buddhism=unproductivity?

angulimala

all,
i have a discussion with my friend a few days ago, in short he said that buddhism way in getting rid of suffering is by avoiding desires, but desire is needed to make people work hard to reach their dreams(dreams/goal is part of the desire,he said).if the desire cease to exist than people wont be working hard,in other words they become lazy people.of course i dont agree with his opinion, i told him if his theory is true than countries with buddhist majority are unproductive nations, i took thailand as an example. he said thailand doesnt practice the teaching of buddhism purely,legalizing prostitution for example.so what's your opinion?thanks

Jason

angulimala,

It is not about avoiding desire, it is about abandoning desire.

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's Park. Then the Brahman Unnabha went to where Ven. Ananda was staying and on arrival greeted him courteously. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ananda: "Master Ananda, what is the aim of this holy life lived under the contemplative Gotama?"

"Brahman, the holy life is lived under the Blessed One with the aim of abandoning desire."

"Is there a path, is there a practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice, for the abandoning of that desire."

"What is the path, the practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Brahman, there is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This, Brahman, is the path, this is the practice for the abandoning of that desire."

"If that's so, Master Ananda, then it's an endless path, and not one with an end, for it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire."

"In that case, brahman, let me question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: Didn't you first have desire, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular desire allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have persistence, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular persistence allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have the intent, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular intent allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"Didn't you first have [an act of] discrimination, thinking, 'I'll go to the park,' and then when you reached the park, wasn't that particular act of discrimination allayed?"

"Yes, sir."

"So it is with an arahant whose mental effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?"

"You're right, Master Ananda. This is a path with an end, and not an endless one. Magnificent, Master Ananda! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Ananda — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Ananda remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge, from this day forward, for life." (SN 51.15)

Desire itself plays an important part, but it is a skillful desire.

Sincerely,

Jason

Engyo

Besides, some Buddhist schools emphasize the elimination of desires much less than others; in general, the Mahayana traditions are more focused on elimination of attachment, and the Bodhisattva vows, no?

Personally, I am more productive when I am practicing well and properly than when I am not. I get more done, and I am more efficient and a better manager of others as well.

not1not2

If your friend wants to perpetuate unnecessary toil in the name of 'economic productivity', then i guess that's their call. However, I do not feel it is safe to say that Buddhism promotes laziness. A lack of desire to cultivate the disturbed state that is required to motivate one to produce unnecessary goods & services is not the same thing as laziness

_/\_

Palzang

Engyo wrote:

Besides, some Buddhist schools emphasize the elimination of desires much less than others; in general, the Mahayana traditions are more focused on elimination of attachment, and the Bodhisattva vows, no?

Personally, I am more productive when I am practicing well and properly than when I am not. I get more done, and I am more efficient and a better manager of others as well.

So you're saying desire and attachment are different? They're both made of the same cloth, imho.

Palzang

not1not2

They are certainly very similar, Palzang & yet there is a difference between simply being with desire as it arises & ceases and actively engaging & perpetuating desires from the basis of ignorance. I think the difference engyo speaks of is at the point where craving shifts into bhavana (becoming) on the chain of dependent co-arising. It is the ignorant engagement in craving, and all the way from contact & the six sense bases, which I define as attachment. But craving is one of those real key points that if we can really become aware of, we can cut off continued existence/becoming (aka Samsara) or at least most of the defilements and become a stream enterer.

metta
_/\_

Simonthepilgrim

not1not2 wrote:

If your friend wants to perpetuate unnecessary toil in the name of 'economic productivity', then i guess that's their call. However, I do not feel it is safe to say that Buddhism promotes laziness. A lack of desire to cultivate the disturbed state that is required to motivate one to produce unnecessary goods & services is not the same thing as laziness

_/\_

I think that the whole 'economic productivity' thing is about what we are prepared to do with our time. If we choose to sell it to an employer, we get money and someone else disposing of our time and attention. If, however, we prefer to exchange time for something else, 'enlightenement' or 'making art', we shall live differently. It is the real problem of an age where we are compelled, by economic necessity and resource hoarding by the wealthy, to work longer to house, feed and clothe ourselves than in, say, the Bronze Age.

When Gautama walked Northern India, more options existed for that part of the population which wanted to dispose of their time in non-money-making ways. Blending the duties of householder and Dharma practitioner today is a real challenge.

not1not2

Blending the duties of householder and Dharma practitioner today is a real challenge

I agree

_/\_

Palzang

Me too! It's extremely difficult to try to be a monk and still have to work and do ordinary things. Very, very difficult.

Palzang

Jason

angulimala,

If your friend really thinks that the Buddhism leads to laziness, then perhaps he or she might benefit from taking the time to read the suttas. Not only will they see that the Noble Eightfold Path helps to abandon laziness and arouse energy (AN 8.80), but they will also read countless stories about the Buddha and his disciples before and after their awakenings. I can guarantee you that they were not lazy or unproductive by any means.

The Buddha himself began his quest to discover the end of suffering when he was twenty nine years old. That in itself was his dream. He relentlessly studied and practiced until he finally attained release at the age of thirty five. After that, he spent the next forty years traveling across what is now Nepal and India (barefoot mind you) in order to teach this discovery to the world. That certainly does not sound like a lazy person to me.

Best wishes,

Jason

Celebrin

umm i had no ambition til i meet loopy (love of my so far life).. now i have ambition.. oh and shes from thailand lol

and ummm i think that theory is about as gd.. as my friend aaron the super christians amazing theory

of GOD GIVES THE BEST CHRISTIAN NATIONS WEALTH and non christians shite.. look at africa.. clearly bad christans.. .america clearly the best christians of all..

russia.. clearly bad christians .. they followed orthodox.. this prooves its wrong cus they're poor

need i continue?

not1not2

Celebrin wrote:

umm i had no ambition til i meet loopy (love of my so far life).. now i have ambition.. oh and shes from thailand lol

and ummm i think that theory is about as gd.. as my friend aaron the super christians amazing theory

of GOD GIVES THE BEST CHRISTIAN NATIONS WEALTH and non christians shite.. look at africa.. clearly bad christans.. .america clearly the best christians of all..

russia.. clearly bad christians .. they followed orthodox.. this prooves its wrong cus they're poor

need i continue?

????

what?

_/\_

Palzang

Celebrin, you should really ease off of that pipe, man!

Palzang

inthedharma

To a lay person is sitting in meditation considered being lazy?

My father is a retired cattle rancher and other than going to church for an hour on Sunday he would think sitting in meditation was a waste of time and being very lazy.

I've never thought about this before...........If ppl are like my father......he was a workaholic, they might see Buddhism as being lazy if they knew some one that meditated for a very long period of time. In my fathers case 1/2 to an hour would be considered lazy..........

Brigid

Angulimala,

Check out page 17 (the last page at the moment) of Samahita's thread "Daily Dhamma Drops" and you'll have everything you need to counter your friend's argument.

Nice to see you, by the way. It's been a little while. I hope everything is going well in your life and that you are in good health.

Your friend,
Brigid

Simonthepilgrim

I have no difficulty understanding Celebrin's post! The attitude that he describes, however, has puzzled me for a long time: it demonstrates the inherent nonsense of "prosperity theology" or whatever they want to call it. Calvin, in Geneva, tried to implement it by expelling the poor and, if necessary, burning them, arguing that the fact of their poverty indicated that God did not love them.

When Britain ruled a great empire, that was taken as showing that God favoured the British. Now that the USA is wealthy and powerful, the same applies. The syllogism seems self-evident:

1. God shows favour by giving wealth and power;
2. This or that nation have or have not got wealth and power;
3. The nation's favour with God is determined by GNP.

It is obvious, when put like that, that it is cr*p! If it were the case, the God in question certainly moves favour about a bit over the years.

Celebrin

well all im trying to say is, these theorys that religion actually powers ur motivation.. or that theres a divine rule under what social class you are depending on ur religious status.. clearly not true

different ppl.. its more ur life.. and whats happened during it.. these theories are usually founded or thought up by ppl with too much time.. and absolutely no knowledge of how economics work.. and no knowledge of any countries previous history..

I've not had much ambition for long time.. and it takes a girl to do that for me.. or something to fight for.. this has little to do with religious stuff.. its more to do with lack of motivation. and personal issues..

to me everyone simply is as they are.. there no underlying magic chimpanzee with a billboard attached to him saying Buddhist winding ur cogs... (sorry dave ur a buddhist.. you don't have enough cogs for me to wind up your motivation, you'll have to be lazy)

angulimala

Brigid wrote:

Angulimala,

Check out page 17 (the last page at the moment) of Samahita's thread "Daily Dhamma Drops" and you'll have everything you need to counter your friend's argument.

Nice to see you, by the way. It's been a little while. I hope everything is going well in your life and that you are in good health.

Your friend,
Brigid

hi brigid and hi all,
thank you for your opinions, i think i dont want to discuss this anymore with my friend,unless he asks for it.i think it's useless to try to change his view,i know he is very adamant about everything.and yes he only studies buddhism a bit here and a bit there,just like the blinds who touch the elephant. i just told him maybe buddhism is not suitable for him.
brigid and all, nice to see you too.actually i always drop by in spirit,i mean not logged in.