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Faith Or Confidence?
Dear Members
My question evolves around the concept of 'Saddha' or 'faith' in Buddhism. The following is quoted from Ven. Nyanaponika Thera's book entitled'The Heart of Buddhist Meditation' (page 177-178);
'Beyond Faith (53)
Is ther a way, monks, by which a monk without recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to traditions, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon, may declare the Final Knowledge (of Sainthood): "Rebirth has ceased, the Holy Life has been lived, completed is the task, and nothing more remains afer this"?'
'For us, O Lord, the teachings are rooted in the Exalted One. May the Exalted One speak! The monks will preserve his words.'
'There is a way, O monks. And which is it?
'Herein, monks, a monk has seen a form with his eyes, and if greed, hate or delusion ae in him, he knows: "There is in me greed, hate, delusion"; and if greed, hate or delusion are not in him, he knows: "There is no greed, hate, or delusion in me".
'Further, monks, a monk has heard a sound, smelled an odour, tasted a flavour, felt a tactile sensation, cognised a mental object (idea), and if greed hate or delusion are in him, he knows: "There is in me greed, hate, delusion"; and if greed, hate, delusion are not in him, he knows: "There is in me no greed, hate, delusion".
And if he thus knows, O monks, are these ideas such as to be known by recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to tradition, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon?'
'Certainly not, Lord.'
'Are these not rather ideas to be known after wisely realising them by experience?'
'That is so, Lord.'
'This, monks, is a way by which a monk, without recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to tradition, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon, may declare the Final Knowledge (of Sainthood): "Rebirth has ceased, the Holy Life has been lived, completed is the task, and nothing more remains after this".'
Itivutakka, 111.
And yet, earlier in the same Itivutakka, we find the following;
The Foremost Faith
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.072-090x.irel.html#iti-090
'This was said by the Lord...
"Bhikkhus, there are these three foremost kinds of faith. What are the three?
"Whatever beings there are, whether footless or two-footed or four-footed, with form or without form, percipient or non-percipient or neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient, of these the Tathagata is reckoned foremost, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One. Those who have faith in the Buddha have faith in the foremost, and for those with faith in the foremost the result will be foremost.
"Whatever states there are, whether conditioned or unconditioned, of these detachment is reckoned foremost, that is, the subduing of vanity, the elimination of thirst, the removal of reliance, the termination of the round (of rebirths), the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, Nibbana. Those who have faith in the Dhamma of detachment have faith in the foremost, and for those with faith in the foremost the result will be foremost.
"Whatever communities or groups there are, bhikkhus, of these the Sangha of the Tathagata's disciples is reckoned foremost, that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight individuals. This Sangha of the Lord's disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassable field of merit for the world. Those who have faith in the Sangha have faith in the foremost, and for those with faith in the foremost the result will be foremost.
"These, bhikkhus, are the three foremost kinds of faith."
This is foremost for those with faith,
For those who know the foremost Dhamma:
Having faith in the Buddha as foremost,
Worthy of offerings, unsurpassed;
Having faith in the Dhamma as foremost,
The peace of detachment, bliss;
Having faith in the Sangha as foremost,
A field of merit unsurpassed.
Distributing gifts among the foremost,
Foremost is the merit that accrues;
Foremost their life and beauty,
Fame, reputation, happiness, and strength.
The wise one who gives to the foremost,
Concentrated on the foremost Dhamma,
Whether he becomes a deva or a human,
Rejoices in his foremost attainment.' Itivutakka: 90.
John Ireland, (the above translator of Iti: 90), translates 'saddha' as 'fsith', whilst Thanissaro Bhikkhu (see his translation of Iti: 90 here <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.050-099.than.html>) prefers 'confidence' to 'faith'.
As 'saddha' means to 'support with confidence', Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation would be nearer the mark. Now, I opened with a quote from Nyanaponika Thera - I have copy-typed his 'Beyond Faith' section from his book. He uses the term 'faith', but is this correct? Compare Nyanaponika Thera's translation above, with Thanissaro Bhikkhu;
Iti: 111
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.4.100-112.than.html
'This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Be consummate in virtue, monks, and consummate in the Patimokkha. Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in your behavior & sphere of activity. Train yourselves, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults.
"When one is consummate in virtue, consummate in the Patimokkha; dwelling restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in one's behavior & sphere of activity; training oneself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults — what more is to be done?
"If, while he is walking, any greed in a monk is done away with, any ill will, any sloth & drowsiness, any restlessness & anxiety, any uncertainty is done away with; if his persistence is aroused and not lax; if his mindfulness is established & unmuddled; if his body is calm & unaroused; if his mind is centered & unified: then a monk walking with such ardency & concern is called continually & continuously resolute, one with persistence aroused.
"If, while he is standing...
"If, while he is sitting...
"If, while he is lying down, any greed in a monk is done away with, any ill will, any sloth & drowsiness, any restlessness & anxiety, any uncertainty is done away with; if his persistence is aroused and not lax; if his mindfulness is established & unmuddled; if his body is calm & unaroused; if his mind is centered & unified: then a monk lying down with such ardency & concern is called continually & continuously resolute, one with persistence aroused."
Controlled in walking,
controlled in standing,
controlled in sitting,
controlled in lying down,
controlled in flexing & extending his limbs
— above, around, & below,
as far as the worlds extend —
observing the arising & passing away
of phenomena,
of aggregates:
a monk who dwells thus ardently,
not restlessly, at peace —
always
mindful,
training in the mastery
of awareness-tranquillity —
is said to be continually
resolute.'
Even the word 'confidence', which Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates from 'saddha', does not appear in the English translation above. And as a consequence, there are three distinct questions that need to be asked;
1) Should 'saddha' NOT be translated as 'faith' in the West, as it is often confused with theocratic faith.
2) Was Nyanaponika Thera correct to use the English term 'fsith' in his translation of Iti: 111?
3) Would it then, be correct to say, that Buddhism does not have 'faith' in the theocratic sense, and that 'saddha' should not be translated as 'faith', as a consequence?
Thank you.
My question evolves around the concept of 'Saddha' or 'faith' in Buddhism. The following is quoted from Ven. Nyanaponika Thera's book entitled'The Heart of Buddhist Meditation' (page 177-178);
'Beyond Faith (53)
Is ther a way, monks, by which a monk without recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to traditions, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon, may declare the Final Knowledge (of Sainthood): "Rebirth has ceased, the Holy Life has been lived, completed is the task, and nothing more remains afer this"?'
'For us, O Lord, the teachings are rooted in the Exalted One. May the Exalted One speak! The monks will preserve his words.'
'There is a way, O monks. And which is it?
'Herein, monks, a monk has seen a form with his eyes, and if greed, hate or delusion ae in him, he knows: "There is in me greed, hate, delusion"; and if greed, hate or delusion are not in him, he knows: "There is no greed, hate, or delusion in me".
'Further, monks, a monk has heard a sound, smelled an odour, tasted a flavour, felt a tactile sensation, cognised a mental object (idea), and if greed hate or delusion are in him, he knows: "There is in me greed, hate, delusion"; and if greed, hate, delusion are not in him, he knows: "There is in me no greed, hate, delusion".
And if he thus knows, O monks, are these ideas such as to be known by recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to tradition, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon?'
'Certainly not, Lord.'
'Are these not rather ideas to be known after wisely realising them by experience?'
'That is so, Lord.'
'This, monks, is a way by which a monk, without recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to tradition, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon, may declare the Final Knowledge (of Sainthood): "Rebirth has ceased, the Holy Life has been lived, completed is the task, and nothing more remains after this".'
Itivutakka, 111.
And yet, earlier in the same Itivutakka, we find the following;
The Foremost Faith
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.072-090x.irel.html#iti-090
'This was said by the Lord...
"Bhikkhus, there are these three foremost kinds of faith. What are the three?
"Whatever beings there are, whether footless or two-footed or four-footed, with form or without form, percipient or non-percipient or neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient, of these the Tathagata is reckoned foremost, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One. Those who have faith in the Buddha have faith in the foremost, and for those with faith in the foremost the result will be foremost.
"Whatever states there are, whether conditioned or unconditioned, of these detachment is reckoned foremost, that is, the subduing of vanity, the elimination of thirst, the removal of reliance, the termination of the round (of rebirths), the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, Nibbana. Those who have faith in the Dhamma of detachment have faith in the foremost, and for those with faith in the foremost the result will be foremost.
"Whatever communities or groups there are, bhikkhus, of these the Sangha of the Tathagata's disciples is reckoned foremost, that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight individuals. This Sangha of the Lord's disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassable field of merit for the world. Those who have faith in the Sangha have faith in the foremost, and for those with faith in the foremost the result will be foremost.
"These, bhikkhus, are the three foremost kinds of faith."
This is foremost for those with faith,
For those who know the foremost Dhamma:
Having faith in the Buddha as foremost,
Worthy of offerings, unsurpassed;
Having faith in the Dhamma as foremost,
The peace of detachment, bliss;
Having faith in the Sangha as foremost,
A field of merit unsurpassed.
Distributing gifts among the foremost,
Foremost is the merit that accrues;
Foremost their life and beauty,
Fame, reputation, happiness, and strength.
The wise one who gives to the foremost,
Concentrated on the foremost Dhamma,
Whether he becomes a deva or a human,
Rejoices in his foremost attainment.' Itivutakka: 90.
John Ireland, (the above translator of Iti: 90), translates 'saddha' as 'fsith', whilst Thanissaro Bhikkhu (see his translation of Iti: 90 here <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.050-099.than.html>) prefers 'confidence' to 'faith'.
As 'saddha' means to 'support with confidence', Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation would be nearer the mark. Now, I opened with a quote from Nyanaponika Thera - I have copy-typed his 'Beyond Faith' section from his book. He uses the term 'faith', but is this correct? Compare Nyanaponika Thera's translation above, with Thanissaro Bhikkhu;
Iti: 111
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.4.100-112.than.html
'This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Be consummate in virtue, monks, and consummate in the Patimokkha. Dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in your behavior & sphere of activity. Train yourselves, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults.
"When one is consummate in virtue, consummate in the Patimokkha; dwelling restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in one's behavior & sphere of activity; training oneself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults — what more is to be done?
"If, while he is walking, any greed in a monk is done away with, any ill will, any sloth & drowsiness, any restlessness & anxiety, any uncertainty is done away with; if his persistence is aroused and not lax; if his mindfulness is established & unmuddled; if his body is calm & unaroused; if his mind is centered & unified: then a monk walking with such ardency & concern is called continually & continuously resolute, one with persistence aroused.
"If, while he is standing...
"If, while he is sitting...
"If, while he is lying down, any greed in a monk is done away with, any ill will, any sloth & drowsiness, any restlessness & anxiety, any uncertainty is done away with; if his persistence is aroused and not lax; if his mindfulness is established & unmuddled; if his body is calm & unaroused; if his mind is centered & unified: then a monk lying down with such ardency & concern is called continually & continuously resolute, one with persistence aroused."
Controlled in walking,
controlled in standing,
controlled in sitting,
controlled in lying down,
controlled in flexing & extending his limbs
— above, around, & below,
as far as the worlds extend —
observing the arising & passing away
of phenomena,
of aggregates:
a monk who dwells thus ardently,
not restlessly, at peace —
always
mindful,
training in the mastery
of awareness-tranquillity —
is said to be continually
resolute.'
Even the word 'confidence', which Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates from 'saddha', does not appear in the English translation above. And as a consequence, there are three distinct questions that need to be asked;
1) Should 'saddha' NOT be translated as 'faith' in the West, as it is often confused with theocratic faith.
2) Was Nyanaponika Thera correct to use the English term 'fsith' in his translation of Iti: 111?
3) Would it then, be correct to say, that Buddhism does not have 'faith' in the theocratic sense, and that 'saddha' should not be translated as 'faith', as a consequence?
Thank you.
0
Comments
In regard to your questions:
1) Should 'saddha' NOT be translated as 'faith' in the West, as it is often confused with theocratic faith.
-I don't see any huge reasons not to translate 'saddha' as faith, though 'confidence' does have less baggage & means pretty close to the same thing. We see similar issues with the translation of terms like dukkha as stress, suffering, unsatisfactoriness, etc. Additionally, faith/confidence means (at some point) a removal of doubt towards the teachings & is directly related to stream-winning. I would say confidence implies more of a direct/verified sort of faith than just using the term 'faith' though & is perhaps preferable. The buddha implored practitioners to see directly into the truth of his teachings & not blindly accept them.
2) Was Nyanaponika Thera correct to use the English term 'faith' in his translation of Iti: 111?
-Different translators choose slightly different renderings of Pali terminology to give a certain inflection to the passage. The key in determining whether usage is correct is whether it is in line with the practice & the 4 NT. As I am no Pali scholar, I cannot really comment much further on the grammatical correctness of this translation.
3) Would it then, be correct to say, that Buddhism does not have 'faith' in the theocratic sense, and that 'saddha' should not be translated as 'faith', as a consequence?
-Well, considering that Buddhism is not a theistic tradition, then I would say that 'faith' does not carry a theocratic meaning. In theistic traditions, 'faith' implies relying on a higher power, but it also implies a faith in the truth of the teachings as a basis for practice. And as I mentioned earlier, I don't see that large of a difference between the terms 'faith' & 'confidence'. However, the term faith is broader than confidence & includes blind acceptance. On the other hand, I guess it's possible to be confident blindly as well.
Now, in regard to the first sutta you posted, the idea seems to me that faith in the teachings is good, but it is the direct seeing of things as they are that is the entire aim of the practice & so one may bypass using saddha as an expedient means if they simply see clearly. No need for any teachings if one is already enlightened. You can see this sort of emphasis in the 'sudden school' of Chan/Zen Buddhism. However, this is really just a teaching, imo, to make the point that the point of the triple jewel is actually to achieve awakening, not just to become a good practitioner.
Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.
metta
_/\_
I have two handicaps: I am no Pali scholar and not a native English speaker
Dr. Helmut Hecker translates saddha as "Höchste Zufriedenheit" there which would mean highest contentment/satisfaction in English: http://www.palikanon.com/khuddaka/it/it090t099.html
Regards
1) In my opinion, the word saddha can be translated as confidence, conviction, or faith and still retain its intended meaning. It is a type of confidence, conviction, or faith that is rooted in understanding as well as what we would conventionally refer to as faith in the West (i.e. confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing).
2) First, I would like to point out that one of your quotes might possibly be miss-numbered because it appears that there are two distinct passages with different subject matter being referenced as Iti 111 here. Secondly, I believe that he was neither correct nor incorrect in using faith as a translation since translators have a degree of freedom in their art.
3) No, as I said before, saddha can be translated as confidence, conviction, or faith and still retain its intended meaning. It is a type of confidence, conviction, or faith that is rooted in understanding as well as what we would conventionally refer to as faith in the West (i.e. confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing).
Best wishes,
Jason
'Another topic discussed in the early Buddhist texts is the teaching of faith, confidence (P. saddha, Skt. avetya prasada). For example, definite faith is equated with the faculty of faith (saddha-indriya), which is one of the five faculties (P. Skt. panca-indriyanic: faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom). Faith in early Buddhist texts is not passionate, fanatical, or blind faith, but is closely related to wisdom. "Calmed faith" (P. pasada, Skt. Prasada), cultivated in daily devotion to Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha, leads to confidence in and practice of the five moralities (panca-sila), in which the stream-enterer (sotapanna) should abide. The verbal form of pasada is pasidati, which means not only "to have faith", but also "to be clear and calm; to become of peaceful heart; to be purified, reconciled or pleased". Faith, in early Buddhism, is essentially governed and stabilised by "individual understanding".
The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism: By Choong Mun-Kat, Page vii/viii)
So it would seem that Nyanaponika Thera's translation of Iti: 111, Beyond Faith, must be speaking against 'blind faith'.
Thank you.
'At the second level, there is cintamayi prajna. This is the wisdom or understanding which is developed through thinking, cinta, the kind of wisdom that one develops for oneself, through one's own sustained thinking upon a particular subject. It is important to remember that the three prajnas form a series of gradual levels of wisdom, which means that the Buddhist tradition regards understanding through thinking as superior to that which has merely been heard from another. (This suggests that 'faith', in the sense of a passive belief of received - or revealed - dogma, is alian to the Buddhist outlook, and that when we come upon references to 'faith' in a Buddhist context, as we frequently do, it must carry some meaning other than that familiar to those with a theistic background.)
A Concise History of Buddhism: By Andrew Skilton, Page 26.
I would assume then, that Nayanaponika Thera's 'Beyond Faith' translation, is referring to the comcept of faith that is defined as 'received - or revealed -dogma' And that it is this kind of faith that may not exist within Buddhism, at least within the Pali Cannon.
Thank you
With the greatest respect, coming as I do from what Skelton would call "a theistic background", I would argue that he has completely misunderstood the Pauline notion of 'justifying' faith. It is far from being the hearsay, passive belief suggested here. It is a dynamic and questioning, testing and proving approach to the message, in much the same way as is described for prajnas. That there should be a 'popular' definition is unsurprising, just as there are 'popular' understandings of Buddhist terms.
It is precisely the fact that faith had become a sort of slavish superstition that set the Reformers on their search to understand what exactly was the meaning and process. It is also what those of us who claim that Buddhist principles and Christianity can be held together would argue: faith is a dynamic and developing growth, not a slavish acceptance of word-forms or a refusal to use the intellect.
'Finally, the primacy of faith operated in the Buddhist soteriological system raises the important issue of the relation between faith and understanding. The relation between faith and understanding was of course one of the most famous controversies of Western Medieval theology. St. Augustine established a traition based on the primacy of faith, often summarised in the well-known maxim of Anselm: Credo ut intelligam, "I believe in order to understand." In the Augustinian tradition, Christianity is described as "faith seeking understanding," so that "philosophy is the handmaiden of theology." Augustine's primacy of faith over understanding is very clearly stated when he writes:
'Faith precedes reason, it cleanses the heart that it may bear light of greater reason. Therefore, it is reasonably said by the prophet, "Unless you believe, you will not understand" (Is 7:9). In discerning these two, he meant that we may be able to understand that which we believe.' (Augustine: Patrologia Latina, Vol 33. P 453 - edited by J Migne)
The inseparability between faith and understanding described by Augustine at once calls to mind the Hua-yen and Ch'an system of "round-sudden faith and understanding" developed by Chinul, Korea's great 12th-century monk. According to Chinul's system, faith must precede the levels of understanding, practice and enlightenment, as stated by the Hua-yen scheme of fity-two stages. However, faith and understanding are still regarded as inseparable by Chinul:
'Once right faith is born, it should necessarily be accompanied by understanding. Yung-ming (Yen-shou) says, "Faith without understanding enhances ignorance, and understanding without faith enahces distortion of view." Therefore, you should know that only when faith and understanding are combined can one enter enlightenment.' (Chinul: The Founder of Korean Son. by Hee Sung Keel, Page 235)
It must be pointed out however, that for Chinul, as for Augustine, the type of understanding established by faith is not only an intellectual understanding, but also a kind of "inward illumination." Augustine's faith is a divine illumination, reflecting a theory of knowledge derived from Neo-Platonism. Christ, God's Incarnated Word, is said to illuminate the mind in the light of faith, purifying the heart so that it can bear the light of greter reason. Similarly, Chinul regards the understanding involved in an act of faith as what he terms panjo or "inward illumination," whereby one awakens to True Mind. Yet, there are important differences between Chinul's theory of illumination by faith and Augustine's. For Augustine, illumination means seeing eternal truths (e.g., blessedness, goodness, virtue, etc.) in the light of greater reason, while recognising the source of that light as from God, as well as seeing in the world the reflections of these divine ideas according to which it was made. The light of faith does not give us an immediate knowledge of God according to Augustine. In contrast, Chinul's enlightenment by fisth does not involve a theistic system, nor does it involve a theory of eternal ideas, but instead the means to realsie directly the nature of our own True Mind.'
Buddhist Faith And Sudden Enlightenment: By Sung Bae Park, Page 16-18.
What is of interest here, is what kind of 'faith' is the above quote 'Beyond Faith', actually instructing us to 'go beyond'? Presumably, we are NOT being instructed to forsake;
1) Saddha (supportive confidence).
2) Prasada (a deep rooted confidence).
3) Abdhimukti (liberation gained from having confidence).
If we agree that Nynanaponika Thera is not 'wrong' in his translation of 'Beyond Faith', then we are left with the question of what Pali word is he translating as 'faith', as it can not be any of the three terms quoted above. And yet, the Lord Buddha is definitely instructing us to go 'beyond' somekind of 'faith'. Which faith is that?
Thank you
Love ya'll,
Bobby
Thanks for that wonderful insight, esteemed Pilgrim!
From the first post:
The Pilgrim mentioned St. Paul's take on "faith" or "confidence." Let me bring in John here, also, by referring to that quintessential Christian book, The First Epistle of John:
—1 John 4:4
It is also curious that John uses the word parrysia (confidence) three times (2:28; 3:21; 5:14) and pistis (faith) only once (5:4) in this epistle. However, in his usage, "faith" is more communal and "confidence" more individual and personal.
Love ya'all,
Bobby
http://www.jesusisbuddha.com/review.html
Thank you for this extra information. As regards the Rule of St. Benedict, 'stability' is the key to continuation - and perhaps this 'stability' can serve as a basis for 'faith', in whatever form it takes.
However, Buddhism is a specific developmental philosophy, that is presented (and not 'revealed') to humanity is definite, progressive steps of meditational attainment. As one proceeds through these stages, one's conception of 'one's self', and one's relation to the object of veneration and reverance, changes also. A dogmatic faith would only serve to keep a seeker in more or less the same relationship to the path that has to be travelled. This dogmatic position then requires that the path is not followed, but merely maintained in a spiritual limbo - around which a theology is created, to justify the stagnation, etc.
To reiterate:
'Beyond Faith (53)
Is ther a way, monks, by which a monk without recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to traditions, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon, may declare the Final Knowledge (of Sainthood): "Rebirth has ceased, the Holy Life has been lived, completed is the task, and nothing more remains afer this"?'
'For us, O Lord, the teachings are rooted in the Exalted One. May the Exalted One speak! The monks will preserve his words.'
'There is a way, O monks. And which is it?
'Herein, monks, a monk has seen a form with his eyes, and if greed, hate or delusion ae in him, he knows: "There is in me greed, hate, delusion"; and if greed, hate or delusion are not in him, he knows: "There is no greed, hate, or delusion in me".
'Further, monks, a monk has heard a sound, smelled an odour, tasted a flavour, felt a tactile sensation, cognised a mental object (idea), and if greed hate or delusion are in him, he knows: "There is in me greed, hate, delusion"; and if greed, hate, delusion are not in him, he knows: "There is in me no greed, hate, delusion".
And if he thus knows, O monks, are these ideas such as to be known by recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to tradition, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon?'
'Certainly not, Lord.'
'Are these not rather ideas to be known after wisely realising them by experience?'
'That is so, Lord.'
'This, monks, is a way by which a monk, without recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to tradition, to specious reasoning, to the approval of views pondered upon, may declare the Final Knowledge (of Sainthood): "Rebirth has ceased, the Holy Life has been lived, completed is the task, and nothing more remains after this".'
Itivutakka, 111
The comparative nature of religious paths must obscure very real differences in approach. Simply placing a veneer of mainstream Western Christian theology (as opposed to the Orthodox Christianity of the East), over a different philosophy, does not add to clarity, but serves to obscure diversity.
The intellectual processes of the Mind that underlie theology, are the very same processes of the Mind that the Buddha sort to 'transcend' through His philosophy. The White Robed Monks of St. Benedict, a gnostic Christian sect, use this meditational approach to realise 'God' beyond structure. Faith here, is of the 'heart', and not of the 'intellect'.
I suspect that it is this 'intellectual' faith that the Buddha is openly teaching against in the above extract.
Thank you.
And here is what a Pali scholar had to say to me on the subject;
'I have checked the Pali and found that the Sutta quoted in your initial post is not from the Itivuttaka. It is actually the Atthinukhopariyāya Sutta from the Saṃyutta Nikāya (SN. iv. 138-40). I'm not entirely satisfied with the translation offered. In translating the phrase "aññatreva saddhāya" as "without recourse to faith", Nyanaponika has ignored the indeclinable particle 'eva'. When this too is translated, we get something like "other than owing to mere faith" or "not just by faith."
And so the Sutta's phrase (actually a fairly common one) should not be construed as denigrating or diminishing saddhā (in any of its forms), but as pointing to the insufficiency of saddhā by itself for arriving at the highest fruits of the Dhamma. In his commentary to this Sutta, Buddhaghosa glosses "other than owing to mere faith" thus:
"Other than owing to mere faith" — apart from faith, putting faith aside. Herein, "faith" does not mean faith consisting in [or arising from] personal experience [or direct perception — paccakkhā saddhā], but the condition of believing that arises merely from hearing another report such and such."
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu'
This resolves this matter quite clearly.
Thank you.
"Faith" had previously taken a unbalanced drubbing on these forums. One of the perpetrators of that drubbing was banned, perhaps wisely.
My hunch is that the fanatical attack on faith may have come about by way of over-reaction to the bombast about salvation by faith alone that one hears not only on radios and TVs across America, but even in daily conversation especially in the so-called "Bible-belt", where the fanatical banned drubber was residing.
Growing up Catholic, I had little sympaythy myself for the the notion of faith alone. However, after leaving the U.S. and moving to Japan I have gained some appreciation for its place in the Jodo Shin Shu form of Pure Land Buddhism. So perhaps paradoxically, after giving up being a Christian I have come to have a bit more respect for Protestantism!
However, I find it necessary to point out that calling the monks of St. Benedict a sect of Christian Gnostics obscures a great deal indeed! Within both the Eastern Othodox and Western Catholic traditions, faith and theology on the one hand, and mystical union with God on the other are in no way opposed. And where did that "Jesus is Buddha" link come from? It sure seems way off base to me.