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Dead Classmate and a Loving God
Today, I learned that a young freshman girl died just last night. She was 14 and she went to my highschool. I wasn't familiar with her. As far as I know, I had never talked to her or seen her even. I was saddened to hear that she had died and more so by all the distraught fellow classmates of hers.
But death wasn't the only thing I found troubling about this. It was the morning prayer service that followed. The principal and head priest naturally consoled the school at the assembly. I thought that was nice of them, but they made a big point of saying just how important it was that we all remain strong in our faith. God was a truly loving god (I found this paradoxical in light of this girl's death) God had a special place for this poor girl in heaven. And that "everything happens for a reason".
I found the little prayer service to be inspiring. But the last line I mentioned made me shutter when I heard it today. Most other people probably overlooked it and thought it was sentimental or something. Not me. I found it troubling. So breaking my promise not to debate religion, I relayed on to my Mom my doubts in God's purported love.
God doesn't seem all that loving if he is killing off young girls barely into high school
Well that's just one of the mysteries of our faith. Why bad things sometimes happen.
If God really does care, he is doing a poor job
Maybe God has a special place for that girl in heaven. Because everything happens for a reason. (Yikes again)
Try telling that to that girl's parents.
---The conversation sort of ended there. It just is baffling to me that people still believe in the all-loving nature of a God who would rob you of your child at the age of 14, send cataclysmic catastrophes at people, and drown babies in floods.
But death wasn't the only thing I found troubling about this. It was the morning prayer service that followed. The principal and head priest naturally consoled the school at the assembly. I thought that was nice of them, but they made a big point of saying just how important it was that we all remain strong in our faith. God was a truly loving god (I found this paradoxical in light of this girl's death) God had a special place for this poor girl in heaven. And that "everything happens for a reason".
I found the little prayer service to be inspiring. But the last line I mentioned made me shutter when I heard it today. Most other people probably overlooked it and thought it was sentimental or something. Not me. I found it troubling. So breaking my promise not to debate religion, I relayed on to my Mom my doubts in God's purported love.
God doesn't seem all that loving if he is killing off young girls barely into high school
Well that's just one of the mysteries of our faith. Why bad things sometimes happen.
If God really does care, he is doing a poor job
Maybe God has a special place for that girl in heaven. Because everything happens for a reason. (Yikes again)
Try telling that to that girl's parents.
---The conversation sort of ended there. It just is baffling to me that people still believe in the all-loving nature of a God who would rob you of your child at the age of 14, send cataclysmic catastrophes at people, and drown babies in floods.
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Comments
Nowhere in the Buddhist scriptures do I find that the Buddha wastes energy getting annoyed with those who are confronted with the facts of suffering and death. This is the point at which he takes the time to show that the anger, sorrow, despair and confusion that arise when we encounter such events are themselves conditioned and transitory. He then goes further and says that there is a way out of this suffering.
In the Christian scriptures, Jesus says that the Father notices when even a sparrow falls, he does not say that the Father intervenes to stop the sparrow falling. The idea that 'God' should act outside the normal movement of the universe is a strange one, to my way of thinking. The Genesis comment that 'God' saw what was made and it was good does not say it was "perfect".
Your parents, KoB, are as puzzled in the face of this event as you are. They are probably desperately trying to make sense of it for themselves, aware that they could, themselves, be going through the same thing. Why, then, are you angry at them? Is this not a time when parents and children should be comforting each other as they realise how small, fragile and weak we all are before the vast power of universal law?
if there is something troubling you...even the 'normal' day to day difficulties faced in adolescence, self-development and progress....please be open and forthcoming. We are, believe it or not when all is said and done, your friends; fellow humans who at every and any age and stage, are finding their way too, faced with the same questions and obstacles you are faced with.
be calm, resist less, and seek serenity.
With love and deep metta.
Honestly, you are not alone in such sentiments. I know of many people who simply cannot swallow such pat responses in regards to a death. It can be frustrating to face such statements. On top of that, at least in my experience, it is an isolating experience. When I am among 'believers' I feel as though there is some sort of a wall between myself & them of their creation. I feel like a foreigner. So, quite naturally, the desire in me rises up in me to knock down that wall. I have had some quite painful experiences in this regard. I can understand the bitterness & caustic nature of some of the skeptics & athiests I have come across because of this.
Beyond my own personal emotions though, these are just trying to make sense of existence. They are relying on a supposed 'authority' & have been brought up and conditioned where such beliefs are the norm. The thing is that the culturally accepted christian mythos has become full of superstition & has very little understanding of the actuall reality being pointed to by the scriptures. It would seem that this mythos also requires a much 'higher' (non-dualistic) understanding than I have seen mustered by just about anyone I know in order for God to be truly benevolent. The basic story simply doesn't add up in this regard. I mean, an all-powerful God who creates an existence where even one soul may be damned to eternal hellfire just so that some souls may come to love Him/Her/It, is necessarily of questionable character. Inconsistencies such as this & the genocide ordered in the OT by an 'omni-benevolent' God just make these diametrically opposed characteristics hard for me to resolve. Seems like a case of 'do as I say, not as I do' here. The only thing that comes even close to resolving these issues is a non-dualistic belief system that very very few Christians espouse.
Anyway, on the subject of death, I think we should all reflect on the impermanence of life a little more. It will help us to not take for granted one another & all the things we have. If we know we could lose it All at any time, it makes us appreciate what we have & understand that clinging is fruitless & even painful.
metta
_/\_
P.S.- Fede, my guess is that he's been hanging out with freethinkers & skeptics a lot
I am disturbed by some of the more recent events in my life. That is true. Be it my sudden disillusionment with religion or the death of a girl nearly my same age who is not all that different from me. I don't think it is that I have become angrier here at the Forum, it's just that I am talking about social issues that I either avoided or had unsatisfactory answers for in the past. I am not just lurking in threads offering some provincial wisdom and snappy philosophical sayings anymore.
I have gone from a devout, conservative Roman Catholic to a Libertarian Atheist in a span of time nearly equal to that of my time spent on the boards. That is a major shift in thought for a teenager in such a short time. And with that shift of thought has come some intellectual obstacles; most notably religion.
Many will note (and I will not deny) that I have become less forgiving of the institutions of religion recently. This is no accident. I immersed myself in the writings of secularists when I felt under attack by the more conservative and combative of the religious at my school.
I feel that my eyes have been opened to religion a lot recently. On the surface, it is pretty and shiny. Comforting and compassionate. Deep down though, below the shiny surface of quiet submission and obedience, there is no substance. Empty promises. False hopes and exaggerated claims.
Anyway, blocks of words that I write here can never convey my tone properly. What may feel like witty debating to me or simply honest reflection like what I intend this to be may come across as mean spirited, cold hearted bitterness to others. None of the smiley icons on the side can accurately depict my moods at a given time.
I am confused morally about the world surrounding me. Be it my lack of reverence for religion and disdain for faith and myth while 90% of my culture accepts it. Or perhaps an issue like racism in American culture where Al Sharpton, his ilk, and the Black Panthers are more racist than the people whom they denounce. Or most troubling, the death of a young, bright eyed teenager, who was just another nameless, unfortunate victim of God's divine loving plan.
So to the question of whether I am troubled, the answer is yes.
One of the results of ceasing to believe that there is a 'supreme' deity is that we can no longer blame 'God' for anything. Anger at this 'God' is as useful as being angry at unicorns, and just as logical.
Once I had left behind all the stuff about divine omnipotence, etc., I was able to begin to understand how myth and mythogenesis works. You may find a close reading of Joseph Campbell and James Frazer will assist you in understanding their function. You may then also notice how the true oppression is no longer by churches and temples but by banks and corporations: 'God' has been replaced by 'the Marketplace' as the external rule-giver, the "invisible hand" as Adam Smith called it. No better and, if anything, much crueller.
If you can show me any aspect of this nature in Buddhism, I'd really like to see it.... I have found no "Empty promises," no "False hopes and exaggerated claims."
Whatever of this you have found here, I can only surmise is down to the confusion and trouble arising within you....
Then I was right. And I'm glad you're here with us to share.
metta
_/\_
More like religion in general. I was referring to my malcontent with Western religions, Christianity namely. I should have specified that. I look at Buddhism to be more of a D.I.Y. sort of philosophy where blind obedience is not a virtue.
I think, Fede dearest, that we must be very wary of claiming some sort of perfection from Buddhism as against an immaculate Dharma. There are a number of areas of Buddhist tradition, mythology and esotericism that appear to make promises which may, or may not, be fulfilled. There are also, in our own time, Buddhist teachers who have abused their disciples and ripped them off. It is in the very nature of such structures that such events occur. We even have stories of earlier Dalai Lamas who were drunkards, serial adulteres, etc.
Where I would agree with KoB is that every organisation, whether religious or secular, will, from time to time, be hijacked by the self-serving and abusive. Even the Dharma does not protect us from such events.
Because we live in a post-Christian society, it is the abuses within the Christian churches that we notice most clearly. We hear the excuses about it being "individuals" rather than the "institution" at fault, which allows the believer to continue membership of the structure - and, if we are not believers ourselves, we may dismiss them.
There is news today about yet another abuser within the church in England whose actions were covered up for decades but I would suggest that this sort of behaviour is general within any hierarchical structure, be it Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, the police, Parliament, e tutti quanti.
I was merely stating that for my part, so far it hasn't let me down. I used the term in the first person, because I can only speak from my own limited experience. As I have mentioned many times, I choose to leave aside the deep theological discussions to be found in the 202 forum, because often it comes down to what I ignorantly perceive as "nit-picking" - and I can't be doing with it. There is much to debate and to discuss, as is more than evident. So I have never declared or claimed perfection anywhere. I just meant that so far, it hasn't brought up anything that has given me cause for concern.
*Big hug*.
I really mean that.
And that's either without a God or with one.
______________
If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever. –Woody Allen
And I do.
All round.
And Simon: Just a magnificent post. How you are able to put so much of what I see and understand about this world as it is in so few words and so clearly is a mystery to me. Great, great post!!
Having spent the afternoon writing about the god of the powerless and the folly of the modern church/politics/corporate cabal, I read what you wrote, Boo, and thought:
"They'll tattoo your camp number just above it!"
It's true! I am paranoid! I even use exclamation marks!!
the true essence of a God is both nameless and impossible to understand. When people say it was Gods plan.. this is just stupidity. God is beyond comprehension, and in logical terms, people make their own future. After death is the only time judgement could be ordained. God is not named or to be named.. How can u name everything in the world? if God did exist under teh christian rules.. we'd all say one word
"God" cus thats what everything is.. and all day long our conversations would be utterly dull.
The images created in lay peoples heads, aren't to be bothered with much. Theres no point, just relax in the point that these ppl will never understand past their own shoes, they will struggle to understand anything through their life,but its their choice and you can't blame someone for simply following the moronic road of life.. its been thrown at them and they've chosen to walk it.. only they can choose to walk away from it.
pls note teh sarcastic implementation of my post
In my experience, when people face tragedy, many need some kind of framework they can use to "make sense" of the suffering. So, while I would NEVER say to anyone, "I am sure God had a reason for your loved one to die," I often hear people say that. The idea that a truck or heart attack could just randomly happen is more than they can bear.
Call it God or Karma, for many people, the idea of some guiding force which can make sense of their loss is very important. Of course it is not my job to yank the carpet out from under their feet, nor do I try to encourage them in their groping for meaning.
Someone once said you should never make fun of the way a drowning person is swimming. In the same way, we should never make fun of the way people pray. (I am not saying anyone here is making fun of anyone, btw.)
It took me a long time to shake my "addiction" to God, and I am sure I did some pretty stupid looking things along the way, and still am, but I do think I am heading to shore, whatever shore is.
Being a minister is drag, but being an ex-Minister is a lot more fun. Still won't get you a date on Saturday night, but better than before.
maybe for saturday night....mmmmmm
Well, as I am in Alaska, and she is in Ottawa, it will have to be a pretty spiritual encounter.
Maybe those are the best kind anyway.
For the record, I'm not, in fact, trolling Buddhist boards for a date.
(Xray, I can't believe you said that!! Are you insane? I'm SO getting you back for this!! Just you wait...!!)
But you've got to admit she's an attractive woman.
generally speaking buddhists are good looking types. It's just when we hook up with others we end up looking like this :zombie: and :eek2:
Awww! Such sweet men!
I'm the one who is flattered, Arctic. :buck:
Don't you sweet talking fellas tempt me into jumping back into the dating pool when I've only just jumped out!
Sorry, off topic. I'll go now.
ewww! I just figured out what that was.
hey Arctic ever seen the "New yankee workshop?" Is it me or is there a similarity between you and the star of that show?