A question about the mind.

Brigid

Here's a question for you. I understand (intellectually) that there is no actual "self", that we are comprised of the five khandhas; material form, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness. I also understand that these five khandhas are impermanent. But where does the mind fit in to this? What is the mind?

Ajahn Chah says the mind is naturally peaceful and it is different moods that upsets the mind or makes the mind happy. These moods are created by our delusional beliefs about the self and so on. But what is the mind?

NirvanaNoob

good question. im not quite sure myself concerning what the mind actually is

Jason

Brigid,

That is a difficult question for me to answer in the 101 forum. Simply put, the mind is generally considered to be the combination of the four immaterial aggregates of feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. While the Buddha states that the mind is luminous, but defiled by adventitious defilements (AN I.v.9), he also states that the mind changes so quickly that it is not easy to give a simile for how quickly it changes—that by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another (AN I.v.8).

As the Venerable Nyanaponika details in his Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, however, within the fourth link in the formula of dependent co-arising (paticca-samuppada), the term nama, literally "name", but often translated as "mind" or "mentality", specifically applies only to the kamma-resultant (vipaka) feeling (vedana) and perception (sanna), and a few kamma-resultant mental functions inseparable from any consciousness such as volition (cetana), contact (phassa), and attention (manasikara) (MN 9).

Jason

Brigid

Thank you, Jason. That does help me put it into perspective. So mind is impermanent too, like everything else. I was losing my way a little bit when I was thinking about it, getting confused, mixing it up with something lasting or original or something. But the simple answer, mind generally being considered to be the 4 non-physical khandhas, makes perfect sense and I can leave it there for now until I get a little further along in my studies.

Thanks for giving me an answer I can understand.

Now for my next question.

I've been trying to find simple-ish descriptions of these four immaterial khandhas, particularly mental formations and perceptions, and if anyone knows a good place to find these descriptions could you let me know? Thanks!

Jason

Brigid,

From my understanding, the mind is indeed impermanent. The Buddha once said that it would be better for the uninstructed worldling to hold the body as self, rather than the mind, because the body is seen to last for up to a hundred years. What is called 'mind', 'intellect', or 'consciousness, on the other hand, changes so quickly that it is just like a monkey swinging through a forest wilderness—the monkey grabs a branch; letting go of that branch, it grabs another branch; letting go of that, it grabs another one, et cetera (SN 12.61). As for you last question, for a summary of the aggregates, I would suggest reading SN 22.48; for a description of how we define ourselves in terms of the agrregates, I would suggest reading SN 22.36 and SN 22.79.

Jason

Bunny_Here

Elohim wrote:

Brigid,

From my understanding, the mind is indeed impermanent. The Buddha once said that it would be better for the uninstructed worldling to hold the body as self, rather than the mind, because the body is seen to last for up to a hundred years. What is called 'mind', 'intellect', or 'consciousness, on the other hand, changes so quickly that it is just like a monkey swinging through a forest wilderness—the monkey grabs a branch; letting go of that branch, it grabs another branch; letting go of that, it grabs another one, et cetera (SN 12.61).

Jason

Thank you- very well put.

P.S.: Hi Boo!

Simonthepilgrim

Thanissaro Bhikku has a very interesting article in the Summer 2007 issue of Tricycle Magazine entitled hang onto your ego. He is not writing precisely about this vexed question of "what is the mind?" so much as having a healthy one.

Well worth reading, I thought.

federica

Simon, I have looked up the article, but I don't subscribe to the magazine, as I frankly can't afford it at present. Is there any way you could either link the article or copy and paste?

I'd love to read it...!

Brigid

Thanks so much for your help, Jason. I really appreciate it.

(Hi, Bunny! Nice to see you again. )

I'd like to read that article too. Sounds good!

Jason

Everyone,

I would also highly suggest reading the Venerable Thanissaro's study guide The Five Aggregates along with listening to the complimentary Dhamma talk The Five Aggregates that was given at the Insight Meditation Center for a more detailed and complex look at the aggregates themselves. The talk is quite thorough in my opinion. My only concern is that people should at least be aware of the Venerable Thanissaro's alternate take on the Pali term vinnanam anidassanam (consciousness without feature), which is one of the reasons many people tend to accuse him of holding an eternalist view (sasata-ditthi). Whether or not his interpretation is correct, it is not an interpretation that is generally supported in the "classical" Theravada Tradition in which the enitre Tipitaka and its commentaries are considered authoritative.

Using the Kevatta Suttas (DN 11), for example, Suan Lu Zaw, a Burmese lay-teacher of Pali and Abhidhamma, explains that according the the Kevatta Sutta Atthakatha (i.e. the commentary to this particular sutta), vinnanam does not refer to the usual meaning of "consciousness" here, but instead defines it as, "There, to be known specifically, so (it is) "vinnanam". This is the name of Nibbana." He also explains that the following line of DN 11, "Here (in Nibbana), nama as well as rupa cease without remainder. By ceasing of conscousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here" illustrates ths point. He states that, "Nibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of the Pali names happens to be vinnanam." And finally, he concludes by using a quote from a section of the Dhammapada Attakatha (i.e. the commentary to the Dhammapada), which apparently states that there is no consciousness component in parinibbana after the death of an arahant.

This view seems to be in contrast to the Venerable Thanissaro's note to this particular sutta which suggests that this term refers to a consciousness that lies outside of space and time, and therefore, outside the consciousness-aggregate altogether. The implication of this, I imagine, being that it would not fall under the cessation of [the aggregate] of consciousness. While most people appear to lean towards Suan Lu Zaw's view of this term, I am impressed by the way that the Venerable Thanissaro explores this term—especially in his talk on the five aggregates given at the IMC. During that particular talk, he even brought up the imagery of consciousness that was mentioned in the Atthi Raga Sutta (SN 12.64). While some might say that comparing this imagery of consciousness that "does not land or grow" to the consciousness of Nibbana would be taking it out of context, it is certainly hard to ignore such imagery when considering the possibility. At least I think so.

What this controversy boils down to is the experience of Nibbana and the nature of that experience. The general tendency is to either describe Nibbana as the ending of all consciousness, all awareness, or in other words, to stress the cessation aspect of Nibbana, or to describe Nibbana as a state of purified awareness, "consciousness without feature", or in other words, to stress the transcendent aspect of Nibbana. While I am aware that all of this might seem unnecessarily confusing, I think that it is important to point out certain areas of difficulty for the benefit of the people who are unfamiliar with them. That way, when they finally do encounter such points of controversy, they will have a better understanding of the reasons behind such divergent viewpoints. A well-informed and open mind is needed in order to keep balanced.

Sincerely,

Jason

federica

Boo,
Due to the convoluted somersaults Simon had to go through to send me the copy of the article, I will happily send it to you as a PM attachment, and failing that, I'll copy, paste and send it as the full body of the e-mail.
Don't want anyone to infringe copyright laws, and all that.

VoidWhereProhibited

You are an ecumenical Theravadin, Jason. I am glad to know that there are some within Theravada who hold views which come close to the Mahayana view of Mind, even if they are considered "controversial".

Jason

VWP,

You are an ecumenical Theravadin, Jason. I am glad to know that there are some within Theravada who hold views which come close to the Mahayana view of Mind, even if they are considered "controversial".

You really think so? I certainly appreciate the kind sentiment. I just wish that more Theravadins thought that way about me! I think that "ecumenical" Theravadin sounds much better than "heretical" Theravadin!

Jason

Simonthepilgrim

Those of us who value ecumenism above dogmatism will always be deemed heretical. Indeed, we may be - and it may be preferable to rigid orthodoxy. The orthodox are like the great tree that will break in the high wind. We are reeds who can bend before the storm.

VoidWhereProhibited

For a mainstream traditional Mahayana statement of what is "Mind" I offer the following short excerpt from D.T. Susuki`s translation of the Chinese Cha`an Master (d. 850 CE) Huang-Po`s "Treatise on the Transmission of Mind":

Buddhas and sentient beings both grow out of One Mind, and there is no other reality than this Mind. It has been in existence since the beginningless past; it knows neither birth nor death; it is neither blue nor yellow; it has neither shape nor form; it is beyond the category of being and non-being; it is not to be measured by age, old or new; it is neither long nor short; it is neither large nor small; for it transcends all limits, words, traces, and opposites. It must be taken just as it is in itself; when an attempt is made on our part to grasp it in our thoughts, it eludes. It is like space whose boundaries are altogether beyond measurement; no concepts are applicable here. This One Mind only is the Buddha, who is not to be segregated from sentient beings. But because we seek it outwardly in a world of form, the more we seek the further it moves away from us.

MariaNavarro

Hi
I am new to this forum and would like to add my two cents regarding the question about mind. I am no expert in any of this but it is my understanding that mind is vivid and aware, mind is space and bliss. It is that which is aware of and that looks through our eyes and hears through our ears. Mind is both the ocean and the waves, it permeates everything. It is like a big container where objects appear, play in the space and dissappear into space.
Hope this makes sense and helps
Maria Navarro
Yorkville, IL

federica

Hello Maria, and welcome to the Buddhanutz Hostel for Dharma-dudes!
Nice to have you aboard!

Brigid

Hi, Maria. It's lovely to meet you!

Make yourself at home. You're very welcome here!

MariaNavarro

Lovely to meet you all
Regards
Maria

VoidWhereProhibited

Hello and welcome to Maria!

Back to this thread`s topic:

I would like to clarify that even though I accept the Mahayana notion that the Mind is eternal and is identical with the Buddha, I also, of course, accept that there is no self to be found in the five aggragates and the conventional discriminating mind is not the Mind we are talking about. However, making that distinction is itself an act of discriminating awareness, isn`t it? When we talk about the Mind being eternal and essentially the Buddha we have to guard against any notion that "my" mind is the Buddha.

The Self is empty of self. The "Self" ? Yes, the Buddha. Read the Mahayana Maha-Parinirvana Sutra for the teaching that the Self is the Buddha. (The Buddha in the sense spoken about in my previous post.) You don`t have to belong to "Dark Zen" (which I entirely disapprove of) to know that Mahayana isn`t entirely allergic to talking about the "Self". In the Maha-Parinirvana Sutra it is a question of different types of medicine, the teachings being medicine for our ignorance. There is the medicine of no-self and the medicine of Self. And according to the Diamond Sutra, that which distinguishes the Buddhist teaching of Buddha-nature from the Hindu philosophy of "Self" it the fact that it goes together with the Buddhist teaching of "no-self". But I have a very limited understanding of all this, so pleas check out the Sutras for yourself.

For an understanding of the Mahayana view of what really is the Mind and not-mind, read the Shurangamma Sutra (not the Shurangamma Samadhi Sutra). The opening sections of this Sutra in which the Buddha challenges Ananda to find out where his mind is are some of the most "mind-expanding" words I have yet read.

If you want to find these Sutras on-line just Google "Mahayana Sutras" and follow links from there.

VoidWhereProhibited

Hello and welcome to Maria!

About this thread:

I would like to clarify that even though I accept the Mahayana notion that the Mind is eternal and is identical with the Buddha, I also accept that there is no self to be found in the five aggragates and the conventional discriminating mind is not the Mind we are talking about. However, making that distinction is itself an act of discriminating awareness, isn`t it? When we talk about ideas of the Mind being eternal and essentially the Buddha we have to guard against any thought that what we sentient beings know of as "my" mind is the Buddha. The Self is empty of self.

The "Self" ? Yes, the Buddha. Read the mahayana Maha-Parinirvana Sutra for the teaching that the Self is the Buddha. You don`t have to belong to "Dark Zen" (which I entirely disapprove of) to know that Mahayana isn`t allergic to talking about the "Self".

For an understanding of the Mahayana view of what really is the Mind and not-mind, read the Shurangamma Sutra (not the Shurangamma Samadhi Sutra).

If you want to find these Sutras on-line just Google "Mahayana Sutras".

VoidWhereProhibited

Excerpt from the first volume of the Shurangama Sutra on the mind:

Ánanda saw the Buddha, bowed, and wept sorrowfully, regretting that from time without beginning he had been preoccupied with erudition and had not yet perfected his strength in the Way. He respectfully and repeatedly requested an explanation of the initial expedients of the wonderful shamatha, Samapatti, and Dhyana, by means of which the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions had realized Bodhi.
At that time Bodhisattvas as numerous as Ganges’ sands, great Arhats, Pratyekabuddhas, and others from the ten directions, were also present. Pleased at the opportunity to listen, they withdrew quietly to their seats to receive the sagely instruction.
Then, in the midst of the great assembly, the World Honored One extended his golden arm, rubbed Ánanda’s crown, and said to Ánanda and the great assembly, "There is a samádhi called the King of the Foremost Shurangama at the Great Buddha’s Crown Replete with the Myriad Practices; it is a path wonderfully adorned and the single door through which the Thus Come Ones of the ten directions gained transcendence. You should now listen attentively.” Ánanda bowed down to receive the compassionate instruction humbly.
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "You and I are of the same family and share the affection of this natural relationship. At the time of your initial resolve, what were the outstanding characteristics which you saw in my Dharma that caused you to suddenly cast aside the deep kindness and love found in the world?" Ánanda said to the Buddha, "I saw the Thus Come One’s thirty-two hallmarks, which were so supremely wonderful and incomparable that his entire body had a shimmering translucence just like that of crystal.
"I often thought that those hallmarks could not have been born of desire and love. Why? The vapors of desire are course and murky. From foul and putrid intercourse comes a turbid mixture of pus and blood, which cannot give off such a magnificent, pure, and brilliant concentration of purple-golden light. And so I eagerly gazed upward, followed the Buddha, and let the hair fall from my head."
The Buddha said, "Very good, Ánanda. You should know that from beginning less time all beings are continually born and continually die, simply because they do not know the everlasting true mind with its pure nature and bright substance. Instead they engage in false thinking. These thoughts are not true, and so they lead to further transmigration.
"Now you wish to investigate the unsurpassed Bodhi and actually discover your nature. You should answer my questions with a straightforward mind. The Thus Come Ones of the ten directions escaped birth and death because their minds were straightforward. Since their minds and words were consistently that way, from the beginning, through the intermediate stages to the end, they were never in the least evasive.
"Ánanda, I now ask you: at the time of your initial resolve, which arose in response to Thus Come One’s thirty-two hallmarks, what was it that saw those characteristics and who delighted in them?"
Ánanda said to the Buddha, "World Honored One, this is the way I experienced the delight: I used my mind and eyes. Because my eyes saw the Thus Come One’s outstanding hallmarks, my mind gave rise to delight. That is why I became resolved and wished to extricate myself from birth and death."
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "It is as you say, that experience of delight actually occurs because of your mind and eyes. If you do not know where your mind and eyes are, you will not be able to conquer the wearisome mundane defilements.
"For example, when a country is invaded by thieves and the king sends out his troops to suppress and banish them, the troops must know where the thieves are.
"It is the fault of your mind and eyes that you undergo transmigration. I now ask you specifically about your mind and eyes: where are they now?"
Ánanda answered the Buddha, "World Honored One, All the ten kinds of beings in the world alike maintain that the mind-consciousness dwells within the body; and as I regard the Thus Come One’s eyes that resemble blue lotuses, they are on the Buddha’s face.
"I now observe that these prominent organs, four kinds of defiling objects, are on my face, and my mind-consciousness actually is within my body."

The Buddha said to Ánanda, "You are now sitting in the Thus Come One’s lecture hall. Where is the Jeta Grove that you are gazing at?"
"World Honored One, this great many-storied pure lecture hall is in the Garden of the Benefactor of the Solitary. At present the Jeta Grove is, in fact, outside the hall."
"Ánanda, as you are now in the hall, what do you see first?"
"World Honored One, here in the hall I first see the Thus Come One, next I see the great assembly, and from there, as I gaze outward, I see the grove and the garden."
"Ánanda, how are you able to see the grove and the garden."
"World Honored One, since the doors and windows of this great lecture hall have been thrown open wide, I can be in the hall and see into the distance."
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "It is as you say. When one is in the lecture hall and the doors and windows are open wide, one can see far into the garden and the grove. Could someone in the hall not see the Thus Come One and yet see outside the hall?"
Ánanda answered: "World Honored One, to be in the hall and not see the Thus Come One, and yet see the grove and fountains is impossible."
"Ánanda, you are like that too.
"Your mind is capable of understanding everything thoroughly. Now if your present mind, which thoroughly understands everything, were in your body, then you should first be aware of what is inside your body. Could there be beings that first see the inside of their bodies before observing external phenomena?
"Even if you cannot see your heart, liver, spleen, and stomach, still, you should be able to clearly perceive the growing of your nails and hair, the twist of your sinews, and the throb of your pulse. Why don’t you perceive these things?
If you cannot perceive your internal organs, how could you perceive what is external to you?
"Therefore you should know that declaring that the aware and knowing mind is inside the body is an impossible statement."
Ánanda bowed his head and said to the Buddha, "Upon hearing the Thus Come One proclaim this explanation of Dharma, such a Dharma-sound as the Thus Come One has proclaimed, I realize that my mind is actually outside my body.
"How is that possible? For example, a lamp lit in a room will certainly illumine the inside of the room first, and only then will its light stream through the doorway to reach the recesses of the hall. Beings’ not being able to see within their bodies but only see outside them is analogous to having a lighted lamp placed outside the room, so that it cannot illumine the room.
"This principle is clear and beyond all doubt. It is identical with the Buddha’s complete meaning, isn’t it?"
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "All these Bhikshus, who just followed me to the city of Shravasti to go on sequential alms rounds to obtain balls of food, have returned to the Jeta Grove. I have already finished eating. Observing the Bhikshus, do you think that by one person eating everyone gets full?"
Ánanda answered, "No, World Honored One. Why? Although these Bhikshus are Arhats, their physical bodies and lives differ. How could one person’s eating enable everyone to be full?"
The Buddha told Ánanda, "If your mind which is aware, knows, and sees were actually outside your body, your body and mind would be mutually exclusive and would have no relationship to one another. The body would be unaware of what the mind perceives, and the mind would not perceive the awareness within the body.
"Now as I show you my hand which is soft like tula-cotton, does your mind distinguish it when your eyes see it?"
Ánanda answered, "Yes, World Honored One."
The Buddha told Ánanda, "If the two have a common perception, how can the mind be outside the body?
"Therefore you should know that declaring that the mind which knows, understands, and is aware is outside the body is an impossible statement."
Amanda said to the Buddha, "World Honored One, it is as the Buddha has said. Since I cannot see inside my body, my mind does not reside in the body. Since my body and mind have a common awareness, they are not separate and so my mind does not dwell outside my body. As I now consider the matter, I know exactly where my mind is."
The Buddha said: "So, where is it now?"
Ánanda said, "Since the mind which knows and understands does not perceive what is inside but can see outside, upon reflection I believe it is concealed in the organ of vision.
"This is analogous to a person placing crystal lenses over his eyes; the lenses would cover his eyes but would not obstruct his vision. The organ of vision would thus be able to see, and discriminations could be made accordingly.
"And so my mind is aware and knows, understands, and is aware does not see within because it resides in the organ: it can gaze outside clearly, without obstruction for the same reason: it is concealed in the organ."
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "Assuming that it is concealed in the organ, as you assert in your analogy of the crystals, if a person were to cover his eyes with the crystals and looks at the mountains and rivers, would he see the crystals as well?"
"Yes, World Honored One, if that person were to cover his eyes with the crystals, he would in fact see the crystals."
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "If your mind is analogous to the eyes covered with crystals, then when you see the mountains and rivers, why don’t you see your eyes?
"If you could see your eyes, your eyes would be part of the external environment, but that is not the case. If you cannot see them, why do you say that the aware and knowing mind is concealed in the organ of vision as eyes are covered by crystals?
"Therefore you should know that you state the impossible when you say that the mind which knows, understands, and is aware is concealed in the organ of vision in the way that the eyes are covered by crystals."
Ánanda said to the Buddha, "World Honored One, I now offer this reconsideration: viscera and bowels lie inside the bodies of living beings, while the apertures are outside. There is darkness within where the bowels are and light at the apertures.
"Now, as I face the Buddha and open my eyes, I see light: that is seeing outside. When I close my eyes and see darkness that is seeing within. How does that principle sound?"
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "When you close your eyes and see darkness, does the darkness you experience lie before your eyes or not? If it did lie before your eyes, then the darkness would be in front of your eyes. How could that be said to be ‘within’?
"If it were within, then when you were in a dark room without the light of sun, moon, or lamps, the darkness in the room would constitute your vital organs and viscera. If it were not before you, how could you see it?
"If you assert that there is an inward seeing that is distinct from seeing outside, then when you close your eyes and see darkness, your would be seeing inside your body. Consequently, when you open your eyes and see light, why can’t you see your own face?
"If you cannot see your face, then there can be no seeing within. If you could see your face, then your mind, which is aware and knows and your organ of vision as well would have to be suspended in space. How could they be inside?
"If they were in space, then they would not be part of your body. Otherwise the Thus Come One who now sees your face should be part of your body as well.
"In that case, when your eyes perceived something, your body would remain unaware of it. If you press the point and insist that the body and eyes each have awareness, then you should have two perceptions, and your one body should eventually become two Buddhas.
"Therefore you should know declaring that to see darkness is to see within is an impossible statement."
Ánanda said to the Buddha, "I have often heard the Buddha instruct the four assemblies that since the mind arises, every kind of dharma arises and that since dharmas arise, every kind of mind arises.
"As I now consider it, the substance of that very consideration is truly the nature of my mind. Wherever it joins with things, the mind exists in response.
It does not exist in any of the three locations of inside, outside and in between."
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "Now you say that because dharmas arise, every kind of mind arises. Wherever it joins with things, the mind exists in response. But it has no substance; the mind cannot come together with anything. If, having no substance, it could yet come together with things, that would constitute a nineteenth realm brought about by a union with the seventh defiling object. But there is no such principle.
"If it had substance, when you pinch your body with your fingers, would your mind which perceives it come out from the inside, or in from the outside? If it came from the inside, then, once again, it should be able to see within your body. If it came from outside, it should see your face first."
Ánanda said, "Seeing is done with the eyes; mental perception is not. To call mental perception seeing doesn’t make sense."
The Buddha said, "Supposing the eyes did the seeing. That would be like being in a room where the doors could see! Also, when a person has died but his eyes are still intact, his eyes should see things. But how could one be dead if one can still see?
"Furthermore, Ánanda, if your aware and knowing mind in fact had substance, then would it be of a single substance or of many substances? Would its substance perceive the body in which it resides or would it not perceive it?
"Supposing it were of a single substance, then when you pinched one limb with your fingers, the four limbs would be aware if it. If they all were aware if it, the pinch could not be at any one place. If the pinch is located in one place, then the single substance you propose could not exist.
"Supposing it was composed of many substances: then you would be many people. Which of those substances would be you?
"Supposing it were composed of a pervasive substance: the case would be the same as before in the instance of pinching. But supposing it were not pervasive; then when you touched your head and touched your foot simultaneously, the foot would not perceive being touched if the head did. But that is not how you are.
"Therefore you should know that declaring that wherever it comes together with things, the mind exists in response is an impossible statement."
Ánanda said to the Buddha, "World Honored One, I also have heard the Buddha discuss reality with Manjushri and other disciples of the Dharma King. The World Honored One also said, ‘The mind is neither inside nor outside.’
"As I now consider it, it cannot be inside since it cannot see within, and it cannot be outside since in that case there would be no shared perception. Since it cannot see inside, it cannot be inside; and since the body and mind do have shared perception, it does not make sense to say it is outside. Therefore, since there is a shared perception and since there is no seeing within, it must be in the middle."
The Buddha said, "You say it is in the middle. That middle must not be haphazard or without a fixed location. Where is this middle that you propose? Is it in an external place, or is it in the body?
"If it were in the body, the surface of the body cannot be counted as being the middle. If it were in the middle of the body, that would be the same as being inside. If it were in an external place, would there be some evidence of it, or not? If there would not be any evidence of it, that amounts to it not existing at all. If there were some evidence of it, then it would have no fixed location.
"Why not? Suppose that middle were indicated by a marker. When seen from the east, it would be to the west, and when seen from the south, it would be to the north. Just as such a tangible marker would be unclear, so too the location of the mind would be chaotic."
Ánanda said, "The middle I speak of is neither one of those. As the World Honored One has said, the eyes and forms are the conditions, which create the eye-consciousness. The eyes make discriminations; forms have no perception, but a consciousness is created between them: that is where my mind is."
The Buddha said, "If your mind were between the eyes and their object, would such a mind’s substance combine with the two or not?
"If it did combine with the two, then objects and the mind-substance would form a chaotic mixture. Since objects have no perception, while the substance has perception, the two would stand in opposition. Where could the middle be? If it did not combine with the two, it would then be neither the perceiver nor the perceived. Since it would lack both substance and nature, what would such a middle be like?
"Therefore you should know that declaring the mind to be in the middle is an impossible statement."
Ánanda said to the Buddha, "World Honored One, when I have seen the Buddha turn the Dharma Wheel in the past with Mahamaudgalyayana, Subhuti, Purna, and Shariputra, four of the great disciples, he often said that the nature of the mind which is aware, perceives, and makes discriminations is located neither within nor outside nor in the middle; it is not located anywhere at all. That very non-attachment to everything is what is called the mind. Therefore, is my non-attachment my mind?"
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "You say that the mind with its aware nature that perceives and makes discriminations is not located anywhere at all. Everything existing in the world consists of space, the waters, and the land, the creatures that fly and walk, and all external objects. Would your non-attachment also exist?
"If it did not exist, it would be the same as fur on a tortoise or horns on a rabbit. Just what would that non-attachment be?
"If non-attachment did exist, it couldn’t be described as a negation. The absence of attributes indicates negation. Anything not negated has attributes. Anything with attributes exists. How could that define non-attachment?
"Therefore you should know that to declare that the aware, knowing mind is non-attachment to anything is an impossible statement."
Then Ánanda rose from his seat in the midst of the great assembly, uncovered his right shoulder, placed his right knee on the ground, respectfully put his palms together, and said to the Buddha:
"I am the Thus Come One’s youngest cousin. I have received the Buddha’s compassionate regard and have left the home life, but I have been dependent on his affection, and as a consequence have pursued erudition and am not yet without outflows.
"I could not overcome the Kapila mantra. I was swayed by it and almost went under in that house of prostitution, all because I did not know how to reach of the realm of reality.
"I only hope that the World Honored One, out of great kindness and sympathy, will instruct us in the path of shamatha to guide the icchantikas and overthrow the mlecchas."
After he had finished speaking, he placed his five limbs on the ground and then, along with the entire great assembly, stood in anticipation, waiting eagerly and respectfully to hear the instructions.
Then the World Honored One radiated from his face various kinds of light, lights as dazzlingly brilliant as hundreds of thousands of suns.
The Buddha realms quaked pervasively in six ways and thus lands as many as fine motes of dust throughout the ten directions appeared simultaneously.
The Buddha’s awesome spirit caused all the realms to unite into a single one.
In these realms all the great Bodhisattvas, while remaining in their own countries, put their palms together, and listened.
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "From beginning less time onward, all living beings and in all kinds of upside down ways, have created seeds of karma which naturally run their course, like the aksha cluster.
"The reason that cultivators cannot accomplish unsurpassed Bodhi, but instead reach the level of Hearers or of those enlightened to conditions, or become accomplished in externalist ways as heaven-dwellers or as demon kings or as members of the demons’ retinues
is that they do not know the two fundamental roots and so are mistaken and confused in their cultivation. They are like one who cooks sand in the hope of creating savory delicacies. They may do so for as many eons as there are motes of dust, but in the end they will not obtain what they want.
"What are the two? Ánanda, the first is the root of beginning less birth and death, which is the mind that seizes upon conditions and that you and all living beings now make use of, taking it to be your own nature.
"The second is the primal pure substance of beginning less Bodhi Nirvana. It is the primal bright essence of consciousness that can bring forth all conditions. Due to these conditions, you consider it to be lost.
"Having lost sight of that original brightness, although beings use it to the end of their days, they are unaware of it, and unintentionally enter the various destinies.
"Ánanda, now you wish to know about the path of shamatha with the hope of quitting birth and death. I will now question you further."
Then the Thus Come One raised his golden-colored arm and bent his five webbed fingers as he asked Ánanda, "Do you see?"
Ánanda said, "I see."
The Buddha said, "What do you see?"
Ánanda said, "I see the Thus Come One raise his arm and bend his fingers into a fist of light which dazzles my mind and my eyes."
The Buddha said, "What do you see it with?"
Ánanda said, "The members of the great assembly and I each see it with our eyes."
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "You have answered me by saying that the Thus Come One bends his fingers into a fist of light which dazzles your mind and eyes. Your eyes are able to see, but what is the mind that is dazzled by my fist?"
Ánanda said, "The Thus Come One is asking where the mind is located. Now that I use my mind to search for it thoroughly, I propose that precisely that which is able to investigate is my mind."
The Buddha exclaimed, "Hey! Ánanda, that is not your mind."
Startled, Ánanda leapt up from his seat, stood, put his palms together, and said to the Buddha, "If that is not my mind, what is it?"
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "It is your perception of false appearances based on external objects which causes your true nature to be deluded and has caused you from beginning less time to your present life to take a thief for your son, to lose your eternal source, and to undergo transmigration."

Ánanda said to the Buddha, "World Honored One, I am the Buddha’s favorite cousin. It is because my mind loved the Buddha that I was led to leave the home life. With my mind I not only makes offerings to the Thus Come One, but also, in passing through lands as many as the grains of sand in the Ganges River to serve all Buddhas and good, wise advisors, and in marshalling great courage to practice every difficult aspect of the Dharma, I always use my mind. Even if I were to slander the Dharma and eternally sever my good roots, it would also be because of this mind. If this is not my mind, then I have no mind, and I am the same as a clod of earth or a piece of wood, because nothing exists apart from this awareness and knowing.
"Why does the Thus Come One say this is not my mind? I am startled and frightened and not one member of the great assembly is without doubt. I only hope that the World Honored One will regard us with great compassion and instruct those who have not yet awakened."
Then the World Honored One gave instruction to Ánanda and the great assembly, wishing to cause their minds to enter the state of patience with the non-existence of beings and dharmas.
From the lion’s seat he rubbed Ánanda’s crown and said to him, "The Thus Come One has often said that all dharmas that arise are only manifestations of the mind. All causes and effects, the worlds as many as fine motes of dust, take on substance because of the mind.
"Ánanda, if we regard all the things in the world, including blades of grass and strands of silk, examining them at their fundamental source, each is seen to have a nature, even empty space has a name and an appearance.
"And so how could the clear, wonderful, pure bright mind, the essence of all thought, itself be without substance?
"If you insist that the nature which is aware, observes and knows is the mind, then apart from all forms, smells, tastes, and tangibles--apart from the workings of all the defiling objects--that mind should have its own complete nature.
"And yet now, as you listen to my Dharma, it is because of sound that you are able to make distinctions.
"Even if you could put an end to all seeing, hearing, awareness, and knowing, and maintain an inner composure, the shadows of your discrimination of dharmas would remain.
"I do not insist that you grant that it is not the mind. But examine your mind in minute detail to see whether there is a discriminating nature apart from sense objects. That would truly be your mind.
"If the discriminating nature you discover has no substance apart from objects, then that would make it just a shadow of discriminations of mental objects.
"The objects are not eternal, and when they pass out of existence, such a mind would be like fur on a tortoise or horns on a rabbit. In that case your Dharma-body would come to an end along with it. Then who would be left to cultivate and attain patience with the non-existence of beings and dharmas?"
At that point Ánanda and everyone in the great assembly was speechless and at a total loss.
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "There are cultivators in the world who, although they realize the nine successive stages of samadhi, do not achieve the extinction of outflows or become Arhats, all because they are attached to birth and death and false thinking and mistake these for what is truly real. That is why now, although you are highly erudite, you have not realized sage hood."
When Ánanda heard that, he again wept sorrowfully, placed his five limbs on the ground, knelt on both knees, put his palms together and said to the Buddha. "Since I followed the Buddha and left home, I have relied on the Buddha’s awesome spirit. I have often thought, ‘There is no reason for me to toil at cultivation’ expecting that the Tathagata would bestow samadhi upon me. I never realized that he could not stand in for me in body or mind. Thus, I lost my original mind and although my body has left the home-life, my mind has not entered the Way. I am like the poor son who renounced his father and roamed around.
Therefore, today I realize that although I’m greatly learned, if I do not cultivate, it amounts to having not learned anything; just as someone who only speaks of food will never get full."
"World Honored one, now we all are bound by two obstructions and as a consequence do not perceive the still, eternal nature of the mind. I only hope the Tathágata will empathize with us poor and destitute ones, disclose the wonderful bright mind, and open our Way-eyes."
Then from the swastika "myriad" on his chest, the Thus Come One poured forth gem-like light. Radiant with hundreds of thousands of colors, this brilliant light simultaneously pervaded throughout the ten directions to Buddha-realms as many as fine motes of dust, anointing the crowns of every Tathágata in all these jeweled Buddha lands of the ten directions. Then it swept back to Ánanda and all the great assembly.
The Buddha said to Ánanda, "I will now erect the great Dharma banner for you, to cause all living beings in the ten directions to obtain the wondrous subtle secret, the pure nature, the bright mind, and to attain those pure eyes.

Source: www.buddhistinformation.com/shurangama_sutra.htm

Brigid

Thanks, VWP. I've copied it so I can read it slowly and carefully when I go offline. I appreciate it.