reconsiling with christianity

Linc

I often have long conversations with a friend who is a devout Christian. This same friend also has guilt issues about things he shouldn't be feeling guilt over. When we talk, I often find myself being mad at Christianity and its power structures and systems of control and repression that are demostrated throughout history. The more I study history, the more angry I get about it. As a Buddhist, though, I don't think I should be feeling this sort of resentment toward this other philosophical path. I suppose I also need to distinguish between the faith and the church, but that's hard to do.

I also often feel like what I really want to do is push my friend to get away of Christianity because I feel like its hurting him as much as its helping him. How do I help him without trying to change his religion?


Can we get a monk to sign up here? I need some guidance

Brian

Now THIS sounds familiar. Look, you should know that christianity uses guilt as a tool to get people to behave in a certain manner. It is built right in to the religion. However, you should not be angry at christianity or your friend, as you are becoming attached to that anger, which doesn't help him or you.

Also, you really shouldn't try to push your friend out of christianity. You and I, and others like us, have looked truthfully and deeply within ourselves and seen the "light" so to speak. We could see that no matter how hard we tried, we just couldn't reconcile christianity with what we observed in daily life. For us, the truth is clear.

For him, his truth may be just as clear. Remember that the buddhist path does not preclude christianity, islam, or any other religion. It is very possible for your friend to find enlightment in this lifetime while remaining faithful to his concept of Jesus and God. Personally, I think it is far more difficult for a christian to find that path (backed up by observable truth of the reality of the world around us), but who is to say that it can't be done.

Perhaps the church is helping him. Perhaps faith in Jesus is helping him. If it is hurting him, all you can do is gently suggest why it may be hurting him without trying to get him to reject what he may know and believe. It's not Jesus Christ that's hurting him, it's his own attachments to whatever is making him feel guilt.

Linc

The problem is he seems to think that whatever is causing him guilt is a necessary part of the religion as well... and that's very frustrating for me... and also makes me sad.

Since I made that post, I decided to audit a 400-level religion course called "The Lotus and the Cross" - a dialogue between Buddhism and Christianity. I'm hoping that will give me a better understanding of Buddhism and how my friend and I can find a common ground easier.

Brian

It is very saddening. My grandmother is like that. She is dying. She can't wait to die. She talks about dying all the time. However, I believe that the thing that keeps her alive (and suffering) is her attachment to all her guilt and unhappiness. She believes that she is not ready for heaven, as it were, and it keeps her suffering. I believe that if she somehow found peace one night, she would die that night. I wish there were some way I could help her find it. I've tried gently talking to her about attachment and guilt, but she is very, very set in her ways. It's not so much stubbornness as it is just ingrained into her for the last 86 years.

Like you said, sad.

That course sounds really cool. Please keep me up to date on some of the things you talk about in there.

Gnome

I hate to say but this is common. I am a devout Christian who also due to brian sees the way of the buddist very how to put it Enlightening!

I Believe in jesus Christ as my perosonal savior and he died and rose again for my sins but To push it on others or to feel guilty about something you shouldnt means he is taking it to far. Yes we are to spread the word of God but not FORCE it upon others. The simplist way to lsolve this is to let it be. He will sooner or later deal with it or will ask for guidance

also to seperate church from Faith is difficult. I recently resigned from a possitionj as an assistant youth pastor because of hte poilitcs in church but thats the way it is sometimes. southern baptist are very pushy ( I went to school there 13 years ) and the pentecostals are very free, I like the Non denominational churches cause they go with the flow and arent seperating themselves from the world cause if you seperate yourselves from the world how can you help the world?

Camman

This is kind of interesting to me because I was raised Roman Catholic, I went through Communion and I went through an entire year of weekly sessions to prepare for Confirmation, but in the last two weeks I decided that it didn't feel right and I never got confirmed because I didn't feel like I could, confirm as it would be, my beliefs in Christianity.

I have some ideas about life and things that me and Brian have discussed briefly that could be categorized as 'buddhist idealogy', from what little I know of it, I really would like to learn more. I think a big problem I have is even though I was never really a devout Christian, those younger years of being brought up doing things as a Catholic have really affected my way of thinking, especially in matters when it comes to death and such. I really don't believe in the philosophies and following of the Catholic church but there's certain ideas that have been put into my head that I seemed to be struggling to let go off and free myself of certain guilt, that's really why I'd like to learn more about buddhism.

tycho

Ah Camman I know exactly what you mean. Like brian, I was raised catholic from an early age.... I know just what you mean that there are "certain ideas that have been put in your head" I suggest checking out some of the websites in the reading in this thread http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

Also don't be afraid to ask any me any questions you might have, I'm sure I have stuggled with the same issues at some point

Brian

Yep, you are definitely not alone in these thoughts. That story pretty much sums up tycho's, keebs', and my experiences with christianity.

amoz02

Jesus taught that we must find love and truth (kingdom of God) in ourslef and taught tolerance like Buddha. Yet somewhere along the way men desired power and used fear and guilt to achieve the goal. It is not trying to change somebody's religion but rather help them understand the teachings. After all, both Jesus and Buddha taught the same message and nowhere did it mention to feel guilt over what you have done.

Brian

It is true that Jesus and Buddha taught essentially the same truths.. Why then do you suppose that Jesus' version of the truth became the one that was used to subjugate the people? Is it a flaw in the presentation of the message itself, or a flaw in the cultures that happened to adopt each man's message?

amoz02

It is a flaw in the perception of the message really. Dating to the Orthodox's view of Christianity, the masses were left out of Gnostism that is in all the teachings. Therefore the Orthodox perception changed Christianity from a religion much like Buddhism to a religion that contradicted everything that went into Christ's teachings. Take for instance finding God within you. That essentially means finding truth, love, compassion, everything that makes a perfection in humans. The orthodox came and said God is in an observable place in the skies or as they said the heavens. I am a Christian yes but also a Buddhist. Those Orthodox views do not sit well with me but I do not condemn people with that view. So in summary, it is the perception, not the message that is flawed.

Brian

Welcome to the site, Amoz02. I am REALLY glad to have someone here who is both Christian and Buddhist. Someone with your unique perspective can be a fount of information for those seeking to understand more about BOTH paths

amoz02

To start off, thanks. My view is more Buddhist than Christian though. Let me ask you a question. You don't have to respond but take no offence by it. When Jesus said the kingdom is in you, he was talking about inner peace and being loving. Jesus never said anything about a being in that statement. But referring to the inner peace. Getting to the question. Do you find that all people should follow the Buddhist principles in that sense? Again I am not saying Jesus did not believe in a God but rather taking apart the statement.

Brian

I believe that all people, regardless of their religion, can benefit from the Buddha's teachings. I have no doubt in my mind about that. The number one obstacle is ignorance. People are so attached to words and cultures that they find it difficult to wrap their minds around the idea that Buddhism is a simple, common sense path that reconciles with whatever they happen to believe.

I am not really familiar with that statement. I believe that Jesus' message was highly mistranslated and misinterpreted over the years. Therefore, I think it highly possible that he was referring to inner peace.

amoz02

No text is not without mistranslation and misinterpretations. That is why is comforting to see that Buddhist texts which Ananda wrote feature this is what I ahve heard at the beginning. Jesus's teachings in particular have a storied affair. The Nag Hammadi library boasts a great deal of Jesus's lost teachings but yet the Church will not accpet them. The Gospel of Thomas is perhaps the most notable of the group becuase it contains sayings and actual teachings that Christ said. Buddhists do not worry about the text of the Pali but rather the message they contain. Peace, love, compassion, tolerance. All these things is what we should be focusing on as a society but yet people get caught in what they believe that they fail to see the grand picture of the universe. "I fill a glass of water halfway and people say it is either half-full or half-empty. In truth they are both wrong. It is just half-filled." Osho. Sums up how to be on the Buddha path. Always walk the middle path neither believing nor disbelieving but rather living life in truth or as some would say awake.

Brian

I think you've hit on something very profound. It seems so obvious, yet it really resonated with me:

Buddhists do not worry about the text of the Pali.

One of my most deep-seated issues with christianity is the fact that the bible is considered to be sacred. The bible was created by men! Not only was it created by men, it has been re-written to serve the needs of men in power. How can a book be holy? Especially when the words within the book were written by human beings?

federica

Maybe the secret is not to think that these texts were interpreted, translated and written by men, in order to manipulate and coerce.... by today's standards, what they did was misguided and flawed, but their reasons may have been sound to them, and their objective was to guide and influence. Control and fear are never the right ways, but they knew no other way.
Perhaps, therefore, a more constructive and positive way of interpreting the Written Word is to seek the Voice of Wisdom, Love, Grace and Beauty in what they wrote. In short, one should try to hear the Voice of God.....
Today's Man has no excuse. So to perpetuate teachings that effectively put the Fear of God into people is both dangerous and destructive. The Church (particularly the Roman Catholic church, and particularly now) has a negative reputation. But only because its' administrators are stuck in the Role of Controllers. Look past them. Read the scriptures without their influence. Forget the 'Now' church and seek the 'Then' wisdom.

Maybe you'll think me naïve, but seek God in every Man, and know Him to be there, even in the darkest Soul.....

jjl5217

This is an interesting thread. I've kind of jettisoned Christianity. I too was raised a Catholic, left it, became "born again", but just couldn't reconcile the guilt thing. I've been "practicing" Zen Buddhism now for about four months. I really like it. It's actually more challenging than Christianity ever was (minus the guilt). I just read a great book:

"Living Buddha, Living Christ" by Thich Nhat Hanh

Great book... it's given my a very different concept of Christianity. If anything it really shows the deficiencies of organized religion and how stylized theology gets in the way of the truth. Highly recommeded

Gassho,

Joel

Brian

Welcome to the site, Joel

amoz02

Whats up Joel? I have heard of the book and want very much to read it when I get time. While I'm posting Happy belated b-day to both Federica and Justin. All in all, one should look at the text for the message within not what is written. If you take anything at face value, you are doing a great injustice to any book including the religious text.

federica

Here is a snippet of something I posted a while ago.... It was in response to some thoughtless and derogatory remarks the Pope had made, thereby setting the Buddho-Christian Entente Cordiale back a century or two....

"Thich Nhat Hanh was driven to 'respond' in his book, "Living Buddha, Living Christ." The Dalai lama himself has written a book - based on several lectures he gave to a multi-denominational audience - called "The Good Heart". A book exploring the parallels between Buddhism & Christianity. "

I have read both books and they do much to forge a link and build a bridge between the 'two creeds' as it were.... I do not know if such works exist from a Christian perspective though I would imagine (and hope) there may well be...

By the way, welcome to 'the fold(!) Joel!

Brian

Speaking of folding, everyone should use their computers to fold: It's free, it's fun, and it helps do valuable disease research for stanford university:

www.joinfolding.com

(I'm on Team 93 if anyone's interested )

federica

brian, I've heard of some tenuous links, but that was truly threadbare! will check it out....

Justin

I'm a folder too, Brian, we need to get the sig boxes from SM over here and have our own little "Folding Fold"!!!