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Muslim love
The girl i love, my first love, is a Muslim and i am not. Things have been going fine for a while but i've been told that if i want the relationship to progress any further (i.e. kids, marriage) i have to convert to Islam. I've been studying it and while i found the theology more sound than that of Christianity, theology remains to me a made up subject.
So i'm caught between love for my girlfriend and love for buddhism and i don't know how to let go to either.
And to think that letting go was one of the things that attracted me to buddhism!
So i'm caught between love for my girlfriend and love for buddhism and i don't know how to let go to either.
And to think that letting go was one of the things that attracted me to buddhism!
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Comments
If you are a Buddhist why are you comparing Islamic theology against Christian theology, especially when you have no belief in theology in the first place?
If the girl loves you for who you are, then she will respect your faith and let you be who you are. How can you convert to something which you don't believe in? You will convert with your mouth but not your heart and that's no honest basis for a long term relationship.
Palzang
If theology is a made up subject to you, I don't see how you can call one theology more sound than another.
Maybe he means it's more internally consistant. That's how I took it.
At the risk of sounding patronising (which I assure you, is not my intention) I can't really give you a concrete comment until I know how old you both are. Silly as it sounds, in my opinion, I think age plays a big part in the 'intensity' of a relationship.... care to share a little more?
Muslim women absolutely cannot marry non-muslims, so no chance of letting it be.
About the theology, it doesn't actually matter. I compared it to christianity because that's the environment i grew up in, and buddhism as i know doesn't have a theology, does it? I said Islams seems more consistent since it doesn't give itself problems like the trinity or original sin, but the evidence is still lacking.
....'Maybe'....? You think....?? I would go so far as to say that this is a definite! No question about it, this is the central problem!
Then the answer is very simple. Do you love each other enough to agree to NOT marry, stay together AND respect each other's callings? More importantly, given the cultural differences and customs - is her family?
I think this is a red herring. Smoke and Mirrors, as they say. What Islam, Christianity or Judaism says about God, or his existence, is irrelevant. It doesn't concern you, and because you subscribe to no system where 'God' resides, then it's not the issue, is it?
Your issue is whether you two can stay together given your different opinions. that it and all of it. And the answer, if she is a good and devout Moslem, is 'No'.
If you don't believe in God, then stop right there. Nothing is going to convince you ('evidence is lacking' in ALL and ANY 'God-based Religion) so 'conversion' for the sake of it is selfish, 'grasping' and dishonest. You'd be 'converting' for ulterior motives, so it wouldn't be a well-based conversion.
The issue is really not that complicated.
She's a Moslem, you're not. Full stop.
Go from there.
I have never bought into the notion that to find the person you love, you have to...."be yourself." (*cringes). Sure, if you have a good self, then by all means be yourself. But if your self sucks or is just plain unsatisfactory to the person you want to be friends with (or in this case be married to), then you might need to reconsider the notion.
In your case, the dilemma seems rather clear cut to me. You can either be married to a woman you love and compromise your principles (but not actually hurting anyone mind you)...OR.....you can stay true to your principles, but perhaps be denied a life of happiness and true love.
If you really love this woman, and I mean really love her, then yes, you will convert to Islam to spend the rest of your life as a Muslim (albeit with her).
What would I do? Well, if I really did love this woman, then yes, I would tell a small lie in return for a greater good (as in marriage). Principles aren't really worth adhering to if they deny you legitimate, true love in the long run.
To Thing Own Self be true;
And it MUST follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any Man."
Shakespeare said that, centuries ago, and it holds as true now as it did then.
Knight, what you are suggesting is huge, it's a very big thing indeed, and something that from a personal point of view, would seriously make me question the inner integrity and trustworthiness of any person who would wantonly lie about their faith purely and simply to satisfy an emotional desire.
I would never, at one stroke, either compromise my Buddhist calling, and belittle, insult and trivialise somebody else's religion, purely and simply to follow my heart (and loins!). And i would never demand or expect another to do the same for me.
There are other ways, other paths, other choices and conclusions. But to ask him - and her - to devise a means to go against the precepts and what the koran holds dear, is irresponsible and thoughtless. They might as well juts turn their backs on their respective faiths, and shun them altogether.
A Calling of any nature is not a pick 'n' mix affair. You can't decide to adopt this, but rejec that.
Had God intended this, maybe he would have given us the 10 Suggestions....
If people are sincere about their respective faiths, then to be so dishonest isn't even part of the equasion...is it? That's why the question was posed in the first place - just precisely because it DOES matter!
There is no might be, there definitely will be some massive cultural issues. In any partnership there has to be give and take - it's a compromise. From what you are saying, it's going to be you doing all the giving. This just can't work long term, there is your own sense of self-worth as an English man to consider. It's there, even if you don't know it right now - honest.
What I have just written may sound very odd or even nationalistic, but I assure you it isn't. It's born of personal experience. My wife is foreign (Christian European) and she knew from the outset that I was Buddhist. Some of her family didn't like it and I'm not sure she did either but she compromised on that and now it's not an issue and I'm not 'in her face' with it either.
I spend a holiday at her folk's place once a year. They're nice people, warm and generous to a fault. In some ways more 'natural' that the English. The problem is one uncle, in particular, has got something against the Brits and at the mandatory family gatherings I have to listen to some very provocative, unfair, incorrect and outrageous stuff.
It's at times like this that your very foundations of worth as an individual are questioned. It's not just the sort of criticism that all cynical Brits direct at their own society - it goes way beyond that. You'd have to experience it first hand to know what I mean.
Believe me, once the honeymoon is over you will need this woman to fight your corner against her folks (as my wife has done for me) and she will need you to do the same for her (you'd be surprised). If she concedes to every diktat her family issue, she will never be a proper partner for you. She, also, has to make a choice. She's 30 and old enough to grow up and face the music. If she can't get over it, then you are better off getting over her.
The 'Islam thing' is just a side show. Don't do it mate, it's not the 'real' issue here.
Good Luck
Kris
YET AGAIN, I agree with Knight of Buddha. If you find a pearl of great price, you sell all that you have to buy it [MATT 14:46]. Again, the highest prize is "like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field." [MATT 14:44]
If you really love a woman, you want to be as large a part of her life as possible. You'd just have to reject privately the exclusivistic crap and a lot of the doggerel that other adherents believe. But you'd certainly be wise to think of selling all your formulae and comfortable ways if you want to pursue a fuller life. If it's important, you'll find a way to practice the Buddha's Dharma, although there may be a way for you within Islam itself.
What a sexy name for a thread.
May everyone please be Lucky in Love and strong in Devotion.
Good thoughtful post, and I for one do not take offence, as your approach is both respectful and gentle.
Good one, thank you!
I must apologize to all about the "cultural issue" thing, though, I dispute it slightly.
While that of your conversion to Islam is but tradition, while rooted partially in the Quranic rule which states of the required conversion, I see not a really huge problem around here. After all, Singapore is a tolerant society (or at least we like to say).
A good few of Muslims I know around here have said before, that Buddhism is probably the only "religion" (or philosophy) compatible with Islam. Indeed, the beliefs we share about respect, wisdom and compassion are mutual, while we do not speak of that we can never know e.g. God. Let me first assure you that a Malay-English (I'm assuming that she is one of the majority Malay-Muslims) is perfectly normal. Just don't be racist, supremacist, arrogant and all - but if you were racist, why would you marry a non-English? With the influx of expatriates we have around here, some of our population even envy union with Caucasian-kind, no one will talk of "cultural issues" with you as long as you are willing to integrate. In short, "culture" is a non-issue in Singapore as long as you are willing to let it be so. I'm assuming, though, that you will take up residence in Singapore or something, to apply our societal values to your case.
Can I refer you to this article I read a while ago? While this is not the original, but a review of it, I think it serves the purpose.
I am always skeptical about the ways of my government in their presentation of Singapore as being cosmopolitan and all, but from personal experience I can tell you that in Singapore if you mix with the right crowd, you get to experience multiracialism at its deepest integrative level, not just at tolerance. Sadly, myself an IDed Chinese, I must admit that at times the most insensitive racist things are said and done by the Chinese. I will not deny that to a certain extent I am xenophobic, though, but I am definitely not so to the one who is not desiring to turn Singapore into his little [Insert Previous Country Here]. The local moderate Muslim population, by that I mean those specifically who obey the call to prayer at mosques every Friday, would not frown on you if you explain your case well. Yet if your girlfriend's family already is against your union, then by your own head you must already know that you have a duty to convince them. If you stand by your values strong enough, but is willing to compromise, I am sure they will speak a word of reason too. Beyond that.. I'm too junior to offer any more advice.
I think I recall the case of angulimala, a fellow member of our site, but it's a pity that he has been inactive for long. He spoke before of the laws of Indonesia explicitly demanding his conversion to Islam from Buddhism to marry his Muslim spouse. I cannot remember the verdict, but you could try to contact him, or does anyone around the board know about it and care to elaborate?
Of course, other people change in their feelings and we can not do much about that.
Maybe in these modern times love is something that we do or need more, or something that can creep up on and overpower us for some very unskillful or unwholesome reasons.
But whether one practices Islam, Christianity or Buddhism or practices nothing at all, we wish them the best and hope that their love can be a skillful one, so that even if it does not work out the way they wish it to, they can still come away from it having learnerd something about themselves and life.
We have found that such a thing is possible if one can be mindful and balanced.
Those individuals who practice Buddhism will tell us that Buddhism can make us more mindful and focused.
Right Practice is not to hurt others
And Love is the fuel that makes this possible
And for love to be perfect, it has to be devotion.
Devotion to???
Yes, we get to choose that ourselves.
For my part, I say follow your heart and be devoted to those whom you choose to focus most of your love-rays on.