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I am moving on...
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
No no no, don't worry, I'm not leaving - so, thanks for getting my coat, hat and scarf, but what I mean is...
I think I may have found a way to root myself into a specific 'School' or Tradition.
I have always been drawn to Dzogchen, and now I have a centre of contact I have found, with the possibility of pursuing this tradition...
I found this website, and wondered if anyone else might be interested in having a look at it...
It will be a challenge to find a Master, which I understand is essential. But anything good is worth working for....
I think I may have found a way to root myself into a specific 'School' or Tradition.
I have always been drawn to Dzogchen, and now I have a centre of contact I have found, with the possibility of pursuing this tradition...
I found this website, and wondered if anyone else might be interested in having a look at it...
It will be a challenge to find a Master, which I understand is essential. But anything good is worth working for....
0
Comments
I'm so excited!!!!!
http://arobuddhism.org/community/lamas.html
YOu might want to research a little more. On the other hand...I looked a little further and came across this book written by one of these lamas.
http://arobuddhism.org/books/dangerous-friend.html
Personally, I loved the book.
Knowing what a tease you can be, o celestial whelk, I am not sure if you are being serious. I am tempted to say, "I hope not!"
No doubt you are making your own investigations about this group. Following Harlan's link as well as yours,coupled with a Google search, I have located the e-Sangha thread. One worrying post reads:
I am not sure where the connection is with Dzogchen.
At the same time, I know how easy it is to spread unsubstatiated rumour across the Net. All I would say is that, in your place, I would be wary.
Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn.
To quote Rex Harrison....
I really didn't investigate the site very well, did I...?
And here I was, getting so excited.....
And I thought it looked pretty.:crazy:
Oh well.
(*sulks*)
maybe I'll try my hand at Zen.
Seiously though, the premise of Dzogchen was opened to me by Sogyal Rinpoche and Lama surya Das.
Yes, I know....
He's had his critics too....
But I do ascribe to the notion of Natural Great Perfection.
That is, that enlightenment IS available Here and Now, if we were to just 'Drop it all'.
The two 'Local' Buddhist Centres I have, are;
This one:
and another one I also found....
So even if I don't have the opportunity to pursue a Dzogchen Tradition, at least now I have two fairly local centres. Particularly the one in Hemel Hempstead.
Whelk indeed.....:rolleyesc: :nonono::banghead:
I too have been searching, and searching. But it seems that as soon as I'm interested in a teacher...some roadblock occurs. Too far, not enough money, very inconvenient.
Can one have a lama by e-mail???
You scared the HELL out of me with the title of your post. My stomach went up to my throat and down to my boots until I was finally able to actually read your post. Phew! Thank heaven. I thought you were leaving!!
I've been reading about Chithurst Monastery a lot recently since I'm reading one of Ajahn Sumedho's books at the moment. Do I ever love that man! I have so many "aha!!" moments when I read his teachings.
Amaravati is an equally famous and beloved monastery in the same tradition. I know, I'm biased since the Thai Forest Tradition is the one I follow. But I also love the fact that both monasteries have monks and nuns!! I have a monastery in the same tradition very close to me (about two hours by car) called Tisarana Monastery and I can't wait to go and visit. I receive their newsletter by email every month and it never ceases to make to me smile ear to ear. It's usually full of humour and written with great love, humility and respect. I've had visions of me standing on the side of the highway with my cane holding a sign reading "Tisarana or bust."
Anyway, that's just me. You might quite like them, Fede, and it's worth a shot just to take a look see if it's not too far to travel. On Tisarana's website there's a page on proper etiquette for meeting the monks which visitors are asked to read because they follow the Vinaya pretty strictly so if you do decide to go for a visit have a look for one before you go, just in case there's something in it that you didn't know.
Love,
Boo
I am also very drawn to Dzogchen. Maybe because some of the first books I read were by Lama Surya Das.....
Anyway.......I was excited when you posted the site Fede and I also thought it was pretty:crazy: heehee Thought the first page said great things.....
Oh well, thanks for the warning guys.......:bowdown:
whew!
....You know those odd spiky seed-things that stick to your clothes.... and the bits of tar you get on your socks, when the roads get too hot....or that little piece of food between your teeth that you feel like a rock, but can't shift, even with floss, toothpicks or a high-power sonic-vibrating plaque-shifting, breath-freshening toothbrush? or your mother in law?
Well, I'm harder to get rid of than them.
hah!!:D
And a big HALLELUJAH to that! Can I get an Amen...?
It has been a while since I posted here.
Shingon Mikkyo (literally "true-word-secret") aka "Esoteric Buddhism" is the ancient school of Japananese Tantra/Vajrayana.
Perhaps it will be of interest to know that this Buddhist tradition has a teacher in France and here is the website:
http://thmodin.club.fr/index.html
I found this link in the Shingon Forum at E-sangha.
Note: the English language portion of the site has quite a few grammatical errors, but maybe the French section is better, I don`t know.
And I also don`t know if the temple is near or far for you, but best of luck wherever you go...
There seems to be a perennial problem with many high profile Westerners who have trained within the Tibetan tradition (and some Tibetan ones too). I've read a good deal on E-Sangha about them. It seems no sooner have they got a circle of disciples, a few centres and so on, then somebody points out that they are somewhat less than kosher. I used to be involved with the NKT, so I've witnessed what this can do to people. Just look what has happened to the wonderful Kagu school with the nasty Karmapa spat!
Since the foundation of any success within T.B. is lineage, authenticity, blessings and transmission this becomes a critical problem for people who wish to prevent getting their fingers burned. This comes from the fact that followers are taught that they depend on these 'things' for any chance of progress, so any doubt whatsoever about the teacher's validity means that the requisite "blind-faith" in ones guru (as a manifestation of the Buddha) cannot manifest.
This is a sorry state of affairs as Buddha mind is never anywhere to be found outside of ones own aggregates. I would tend to go along with Brigid's advice and try out the Theravadan place. Their teachings are a useful counterweight to the Tibetan stuff you have studied so far and have helped me immensely. If you have no background in Theravada you could be in for a surprise or two.
Peace
Kris
I think you make a very good point or two. Kris.
One of my worries is that people tend to "quaintify" Tibetan culture and thought. They are attracted by the Buddhist version of Catholic "bells and smalls". My own meetings and discussions with Tibetans during and after my stay with them in Dharamshala simply confirmed this view: Westerners see them as 'quaint' and archaic - and tend to ascribe 'authenticity' to Tibet which they deny to their own heritage. Tibetans are treated a little like rather simple pets and it p*sses them off mightily.
Tibetan Buddhism demands long, deep and serious study. The tendency among enquirers is to dash for Dzogchen and demand 'instant enlightenment', "Buddhahood Without Meditation" as Dudjom Lingpa's wonderful Nang-jang is (IMO foolishly) translated, despite the caveat at the head of the text: I think we shall find that Palzang, ordained in the Tibetan tradition, would agree that Tibetan Buddhism requires deep study and long hours of practice. It is not an easy option nor are the vibrant colours or moving music anything other than aids to the same end as all the other traditions which have arisen since the parinibbana.
Yeh, VWP... so much so, you naughty little absentee, that you haven't noticed I'm back in the UK...?
I jolly well hope you've got a letter from your mum...or at least a sick-note....!!
Thank you so much for your input though.... I fear, as usual, I opened my big mouth prematurely, and my size 3 foot is now wedged sideways.....
Pants.
And I look so good in maroon....
Thank you all for your considerate, patient and detailed replies.
It seems, that in spinning on one spot, and thinking it was about time I showed allegiance to some tradition or school, I have bored a deep pit for myself, and may stay exactly where I am....
But I am comforted at least by the proximity of two centres, and plan to avail myself of their shelter and facilities, in any case....
Thanks guys...but you're stuck with a vague one for a while longer.....!
What is a person supposed to do? When someone is standing in front of you, and glowing from the inside out like a ball of light, and you can FEEL the light switch in your head being 'flicked'...does one heed the words of others?
Just remember, my XXX is better than your XXX and we'll get on fine:p
Seriously, if it's working for you, then I'd go for it. There's a lot of one-upmanship amongst Western converts. Most pay lip service to the notion that "it's all dharma", but scratch the surface and, sadly, a lot of prejudice can be found, as you have experienced. That attitude turns me off too.
My name is Rin’dzin; I live in London and organise our events there.
I just read your posts and felt very saddened that there are still – what I would consider – misconceptions about us.
Re: ‘The dedication of the Aro apprentices that you mention is zombie-like, they are not allowed to discuss or question and if they do Chogyam mutters stuff about "Vajra Hell", they have no contact with anyone outside their own circle ( for Dharma purposes).”
I have to admit this made me chuckle (ok, I admit it, I read vampire fiction sometimes, but I don’t quite consider myself one of the undead…yet).
Aro takes a stance against blind faith. It is considered important that apprentices discuss and question teachings, particularly based on their own experience of practice. Discussions on retreats are lively and respectful. I don’t think that I am indoctrinated, but I guess that would be for others to decide on meeting me. I have plenty of friends outside the Aro lineage, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, and I think they would have told me if they were concerned I was losing my faculty to think and act independently.
The idea that we are discouraged from contact with other traditions puzzled me. I have attended other traditions’ retreats with the full knowledge and support of my Lamas and am planning to attend a ten day Goenka vipassana retreat, with their knowledge and approval. I wonder if this misunderstanding comes from the idea that, once an apprentice, there is an expectation that you regard the Aro lineage as your spiritual ‘home.’ This means that you are saying that your primary practice and reference point is with the practices of the tradition. Obviously, this is not for everybody and prospective apprentices might spend several years testing the ground before they decide to commit to apprenticeship. There are two different categories available to those who don’t want to make this type of commitment: you can become a Friend, (http://arobuddhism.org/path/friends.html) or a Member (http://arobuddhism.org/path/members.html).
If you look at the biographies of some of the teachers in training here:
http://arobuddhism.org/other-teachers/
you will see that most of them have histories with different Buddhist approaches. The majority of apprentices, in fact, come to our tradition having already studied and practiced seriously within other Buddhist communities.
Re: “ The "not defending "stance shows Chogyam to be more clever…”
I see this not so much a clever tactic as an expression of the view that sectarianism – by which I mean denigrating different paths– is pointless and rooted in fear. That’s not the same as recognising that traditions have different perspectives and approaches to dharma. From the Aro perspective, this is healthy and part of the rich variety of Buddhist method available to practitioners. I really do wonder if the hatred and cynicism projected towards Aro is to do with its non-mainstream approach. We are different – we don’t fit in to the prevalent social norms of Tibetan Buddhism in the West. For example, our ordained are non-monastic vow holders; we are less hierarchical than most traditions; more than half our Lamas and teachers in training are women.
Re: “she was threatened and abused, which she expected having seen others receive the same treatment when they left or even questioned.”
Of all the accusations, this is the one I find most upsetting. Firstly, whatever the reality, if someone perceives that they were threatened and abused, this is extremely serious. It is of grave concern to us. These are terms not to be used lightly. What exactly was the nature of the abuse? Who did and said what?
It might be worth mentioning that I have trained in counselling and Gestalt psychotherapy and worked for years with people with mental health problems, and, most recently, with Amnesty International. There are other long-term apprentices who hold professional counselling positions and are qualified therapists – in the UK and US. I can assure you that we would not be inclined to stay in an environment that we found remotely abusive or threatening, towards ourselves or others.
Over the years, like in any tradition, students come and go. Many apprentices who have left are still on good terms and in contact with the sangha.
I hope this is useful and clarifies some of the weird and misconceived ideas that there are about us out there. I am not interested in entering into a huge debate about this, plenty of that has gone on before and on the whole, I think it has caused more confusion than clarity. But if anyone wants to email or ring me to discuss your concerns more, then please do: rindzin.pamo(at)gmail.com or call me on 07855 344468.
I will check into the forum sometimes and post again if there is anything else that I can say that might be helpful. All the best for your respective practices.
Rin’dzin
http://arobuddhism.org/london
Palzang
yes its me xrayman!
Im still around.
cheers-email me you guys I cant get New Buddhist on the work computer (rats)
Palzang
I have been cruising (don't the cool dudes call it "lurking") around for a while-just when I'm at home.
How is it all going, friends?
My website link should work properly now, What is the latest topic of discussion? I'm out of the mix..
Cheers
Previously I posted to this thread with a response to the quote that Simonthepilgrim came across at eSangha (beginning: "Rickpa, I used to hold a very similar view about the Aro until someome close joined and I watched a sincere student become increasingly confused and then increasingly alarmed...").
I thought you might be interested in some new developments. The person who originally posted this to eSangha (as 'Karma Gedun') has publicly retracted his statement. At
http://www.arcanology.com/2007/11/30/more-e-sangha-thought-control/#comment-344393
he writes:
"I bought into what everybody "knows " about the Aro. The fact is though that what everybody ( or at least those who are critical ) " knows " is largely wrong, or partial. Speaking personally I overreacted to what I saw as harm done to a family member. The reality was far more complex, and simply amounted to a mismatch between a seeker and a particular teacher. There was no blame attached actually . However it set me off on a mission , a mission which led to me seizing on the negative reaction to the Aro that exists on the web, and using it to reinforce my own prejudices. As I have said, I regret this and intend doing what I can to repair any damage I have caused. Not least to my own sense of what is honourable."
Karma Gedun's apology is accepted and welcome. It's admirable that he is prepared to recognise that he jumped to conclusions based on only partial information, and a courageous public retraction.
The site
www.approachingaro.org
has been created by an Aro apprentice to clarify myths and reality about Aro, largely in response to those, like yourself Federica, who read negative and factually misleading posts about the lineage and are put off. The site is non-evangelical; it does not an attempt to persuade individuals to join the lineage, so much as provide information to help make informed judgment. At the end of the day, Aro will be a 'good fit' for some, and not others.
With all best wishes for your different paths and practice,
Rin'dzin