Possible culprits?

Knitwitch

Hearing that the hundred or so people killed in Kandahar Afghanistan when a bomb exploded had gathered to watch dog fighting, I wondered if it might not be the Taliban but a new and more ferocious group ...............


The Provisional Wing of the WWF


(Pandas with Attitude)

bushinoki

You've got a point there, Knitwitch. The problem is that the Taliban is a hardline, convert everyone at the barrel of a gun, extremist group. Such a large group is too tempting of a target.

This talk of bombings in Afghanistan is making me nervous. They've been talking about a surge in Afghanistan for the last couple of months, and such things bring me that much closer to deploying to a war zone.

Knitwitch

Sorry Bushi, that was a joke - some of the best humour has come out of the worst possible situations and the idea of the bombs being set off by animal liberation fundamentalists against the dog fighting, rather than Islamists was meant to be a humorous juxtaposition ... obviously failed.

Good example - during WW2, two jews are about to be shot by the Nazis - one says "I want a last cigarette, I demand a last request" and the other says "Shut up, you'll get us into trouble"

That was told me by a Jewish friend

bushinoki

I apologize as well. My battalion commander is hell bent on getting us deployed, and as it draws nearer, the downsides to deployment are starting to come into focus a little more. Yeah, I was a little envious of all the 2nd Infantry Div. guys who just got back with loads of cash to spare, but now it's like, I may not make a career out of military after all, and what good is an extra $10,000 if I'm not around to spend it, or I'm left with diminished physical or mental capacity by the experience.

Plus, I just heard that someone who was in my company for almost a year was killed in Iraq. It hasn't been confirmed yet, but that's the word going around.

Knitwitch

No need to apolgise sweetie - I do understand what it is like to be on "standby" - I am thinking of you and will light a candle for your safety.

Palzang

Afghanistan has been on my mind a lot lately. I just finished the book, The Kite Runner, by Khaled Hosseini (highly recommend it), and also got a chance to see the movie (which is wonderful) when I was down in Phoenix last week. I feel a strong connection to Iran/Afghanistan for some reason. Part of it is because of professional involvement in my past, but there seem to be deeper connections as well. Afghanistan used to be a strongly Buddhist country, you know, dating back to the earliest times. Gandhara was situated on the Afghan and Pakistani sides of the Khyber Pass. Balkh, near present-day Mazar-i-Sharif, was a major Buddhist center for centuries. It was the center of the Mahasanghika school of Therevada. And I don't need to remind you about the Bamiyan Buddhas that were blown up by the Taliban, do I? The interesting thing is that Afghan Buddhists weren't slaughtered by rabid hordes of Muslim warriors as one might think. Rather, they lived in peace together for centuries. It was more of a gradual wearing down of Buddhist culture there as Islam became more popular and centuries of invaders destroyed the infrastructure and disrupted social organization.

I just feel so sad at all the suffering poor Afghanistan has seen, not just in this century, but for many, many centuries. It has always been the route taken by invaders pushing east or west across the bottom of Asia, and it has always meant more suffering for the people of Afghanistan.

There is one pivotal line in The Kite Runner that struck me like a Mack Truck. It happens when the Hazari boy Hassan sets off to run after the kite his lifelong friend Amir (a Pashtun) has just defeated to win the kite fighting championship (hence the book's name). He turns to Amir and says, "For you, a thousand times!" It is a statement of his undying loyalty and friendship for his friend and plays a pivotal role in the book. For me that statement resonated on a very profound level. In my mind it was like a vow, "For you, a thousand times." For the Afghan people, a thousand lifetimes will I come back to bring peace to your land and your people. Crazy, I guess, but just something that's been on my mind ever since reading this remarkable book. Would that I could make it so...

Palzang

federica

One of Nick's fellow students is from Afghanistan.
he calls it -
"Afstanisgone".....

Simonthepilgrim

We appear to be unable to learn by our own as well as others' experiences. The Britiah Raj fought Afghan War after Afghan War, losing each time, The Soviet Union failed and now we are back, failing again. It is a classic example of doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome.

My own feeling is that there is some deep archetypal and mythic stuff going on here. Afghanistan and Babylon are joint 'parents' of our civilisation. Our systematic destruction of their long history will have incalculable cultural impact, let alone the fact that we have unleashed a migration of refugees unrivalled even by the Second World War.

In the UK, there is an increasingly polarised debate about 'Islamisation'. Few commentators want to shine a light on the causes of an influx of immigrants from the Muslim areas which have been our theatres of war: Bosnia, the Gulf, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Palzang

Well, we certainly don't learn from history, particularly W and his crowd of Neanderthals. Yet the Taliban were/are horrendous and pathological. Difficult to call. I guess you could say it was the karma of the Talibans, but still, how about all the Afghanis who weren't caught up in all that?

BTW, did you know that Baghdad is of Sanskrit (or at least Indo-Aryan) derivation? Comes from Bagha Dadda, or Gift of God. Well, the Silk Road ran through that neck of the woods.

Palzang

Brigid

Palzang,

That was an incredible history lesson!! Thank you so much! It's absolutely fascinating to me to hear a Buddhist monk talk about his feelings of connection with Afghanistan. So good.

And speaking of which, when a previous Canadian government sent Canadian troops into Afghanistan just after the invasion of Iraq, the Canadian people were told it was a peace keeping mission, NOT a combat mission. If you remember, the U.S. swept into Afghanistan soon after 911 and it appeared that the Taliban had been quickly and decisively defeated (uh huh). So as a concession for not joining the Iraq war, the Canadian prime minister sent troops into Afghanistan to "keep the peace". Somewhere along the line it turned into combat. The Canadian people never agreed to a combat mission. Yet somehow it crept up on us and now we find our people being blown to smithereens and I cannot TELL you how much that pisses me off. I won't go into the whole situation, but suffice it to say, it sucks. Big time. I want them to come home. No one can win in Afghanistan. How much plainer can it be?? And we're supposed to be happy because combat isn't the only thing the Canadian troops are involved in. They're building schools and hospitals and so on. Which is all very noble and good until we turn our backs for one second and all the hospitals and schools we built are blown to smithereens along with our sons and daughters. It's futile. And the world couldn't give a damn about Canadian blood spilled in futility.

Okay, I guess I did get into to it. I'll stop now. Damn it all, I hate war.

Palzang

Yeah, I don't know what the answer for the long-suffering Afghanis is, but sending in another army in another futile attempt at whatever isn't it.

Palzang

bushinoki

Palzang, was the Taliban, who were clearly supporting terrorism, the right answer then? This is one of those muddy questions where there is no right answer, at least not for the short term. It wouldn't have been to go in, destroy the Taliban, then leave a shambled mess in the wake. Nor would it have been to lay seige to Kabul, demand surrender, and hand over a demand for reparations, which was part of what led to WWII in the first place. The ultimate goal is a Self Governed Afghanistan, whose people practice some semblance of self-determination, but there is the obstruction of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

Palzang

No, the Taliban wasn't an answer to anything, but according to international law, that was an internal Afghan problem. How did it become our problem? We violated international law by invading a country that was no threat to us, al Qaeda notwithstanding. I don't mourn the Taliban at all (not that they are gone), but we just can't go storming around the globe like a bunch of cowboys invading anybody we think needs fixing. And look at the track record. Have we ever succeeded?

Palzang

jj5

Brigid wrote: »

Palzang,

That was an incredible history lesson!! Thank you so much! It's absolutely fascinating to me to hear a Buddhist monk talk about his feelings of connection with Afghanistan. So good.

And speaking of which, when a previous Canadian government sent Canadian troops into Afghanistan just after the invasion of Iraq, the Canadian people were told it was a peace keeping mission, NOT a combat mission. If you remember, the U.S. swept into Afghanistan soon after 911 and it appeared that the Taliban had been quickly and decisively defeated (uh huh). So as a concession for not joining the Iraq war, the Canadian prime minister sent troops into Afghanistan to "keep the peace". Somewhere along the line it turned into combat. The Canadian people never agreed to a combat mission. Yet somehow it crept up on us and now we find our people being blown to smithereens and I cannot TELL you how much that pisses me off. I won't go into the whole situation, but suffice it to say, it sucks. Big time. I want them to come home. No one can win in Afghanistan. How much plainer can it be?? And we're supposed to be happy because combat isn't the only thing the Canadian troops are involved in. They're building schools and hospitals and so on. Which is all very noble and good until we turn our backs for one second and all the hospitals and schools we built are blown to smithereens along with our sons and daughters. It's futile. And the world couldn't give a damn about Canadian blood spilled in futility.

Okay, I guess I did get into to it. I'll stop now. Damn it all, I hate war.

I understand how you feel Brigid, a lot of nations got suckered into the war by our fearless leader. Right after 9/11 I thought the invasion of Afghanistan was justified. But after that, things got way out of hand when President Bush rammed the invasion of Iraq down our throats. I think that just fanned the flames. Unfortunately, a lot of soldiers and civilians from all over the world are dying as a result of that.
Nowadays, I don`t think retaliation is the answer. (though it`s a hard feeling to shake!)

Anyway, your feelings ARE justified. I pray that they all come home soon!

Joe

Knitwitch

I'm really pleased to hear some folks from over the pond expressing doubt about the war in Iraq now.

Way back then, some very nasty remarks were made about France, someone invented Freedom Fries instead of French Fries and our products were banned because we exercised our right to say no and choose for ourselves. It was hurtful.

It's good to see that some people now think that maybe we were right although we ALL mourn the losses of life on all sides that has happened.

jj5

What I couldn`t understand from the beginning was the US attitude towards France for exercising the same inalienable rights that we are supposed to hold dear to ourselves. (free speech and whatnot) I always thought the idea of "If you`re not with us, you`re against us" speech was a bunch of crap! Anyway, there are many of us here with your sentiments Knit! (I actually ate MORE french fries and bought more French wine because of that!)

KnightofBuddha

Knitwitch wrote: »

It's good to see that some people now think that maybe we were right although we ALL mourn the losses of life on all sides that has happened.

Sorry. While I do find the deaths of American soldiers and innocent Iraqis to be regrettable, you won't see me ever shed a tear for the death of someone in Al-Quaeda. As far as I'm concerned, people who pride themselves on strapping bombs to women with down syndrome, (as we saw several weeks ago) do not deserve to live.

I was initially opposed to the war in Iraq as well, but I think it would be completely irresponsible to just leave right now. Immediate withdrawal would be disastrous, although I do favor a very gradual reduction of troops until the Iraqi government can manage itself.

Troops should be diverted to Afghanistan instead where the Taliban has once again taken over parts of it unfortunately.

Knitwitch

I'll agree with you that now the troops are there, it is going to be tricky to get them out, just as it was in Ireland, Yugoslavia and everywhere else.

But .... just as with the recent case in the UK of a man who killed five women - my thoughts also go to the culprits. No one is born evil. We all start off as 8 or 9 lbs of squealing innocence - so what happens to a person to make them able to do something like that (terrorism or murder of any sort) and live with themselves and justify it in their own minds.

Everyone is a victim in these situations, IMHO.

bushinoki

Knitwitch, a lot of things happen to a person to make them evil. I don't ascribe to one particular theory, I just accept that there are many factors involved.

KnightofBuddha

Knitwitch wrote: »

Everyone is a victim in these situations, IMHO.

Though, I would say in the case of very bad men strapping bombs to women with down syndrome...yeah, those women were far more victimized.

I will agree though that these madmen who committed this crime are victims of delusion. Being such, I really wish there is a hell for them. That is, if they don't already meet their [hopefully] grisly ends on Earth.

federica

KoB.... By their actions, they are already "in" 'hell'......