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knee pain
What have others done about it? Mine have been hurting for nearly a year now. I'm about to see an orthopaedist. I am open to the idea that it's psychosomatic. But the pain is searing just the same. Not only when I sit either. There are times throughout the day when I crink my legs in a way that hurts one knee or the other.
Thanks.
Thanks.
0
Comments
I'd get a diagnosis from the specialist before thinking about short - term remedies, it could be that you have cartilage or bone damage or degeneration.
To ease the pain - rosemary oil rubbed on the skin stimulates the circulation and can ease joint pain in any area, but as rosemary is a very strong oil I would cut it with almond oil on a 1/2 ratio and you won't need very much.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for the idea.
I mention the psychosomatic thing because I've fought the sitting for years and years. On and off, time and time again for many years. I've been steady for more than a year now but still delight when the group doesn't sit!
I tried sitting for ages in great discomfort due to a back injury until I got real and adopted a more comfortable position for me, achieving much more because I wasn't distracted by the pain.
Palzang
But once you DO know - kill that pain any way you can. :rockon:
Anyway, I don't put too much faith in the doctor's opinions except with regard to the xrays. I suppose my knees are fine. I suppose it's psychosomatic. I have always glad for an excuse to not sit. I don't know what I might be afraid of; don't know why I might be avoiding it. Even when I am there on the floor, I avoid it by so much thinking. On and on and on. I come back again and again but there are times when I just stay away and think. I don't really believe it's a good idea to wander but sometimes I really don't have enough interest and fire to hang in there.
The importance of just sitting seems more important.
I really appreciate all your replies.
(But as it happens, you're right.... The Liver/Gall bladder, according to Traditional Chinese Medicine, also govern the function of ligamens and tendons.... )
It's complicated.
Look, just take my word for it, ok....??
If acupuncture puts you off, try massaging the other knee, if it's not in pain. I know it sounds cock-eyed, but the Energy Channels, or Meridians, are bi-lateral... that is to say, the Channels running down one side of the body, are mirrored on the other side... so massaging the knee in say, the left leg, will also affect the same Meridians in the right leg. The effect will naturally not be as intense, but it is not a good idea to massage an affected area directly.....
The xrays showed that my knees are fine so I figure there is some psychosomatic action going on that I'm unaware of. You know, it sometimes happens that a person gets sick just before they're supposed to go on a vacation that, for some reason, they don't want to go on. Or, sometimes a person'll have some sort of symptom arise just before something that they don't want to do, then they have their excuse. I have never enjoyed meditation much, and have always been glad to have an excuse to not sit. This psychosomatic thing is just an idea. Who knows what's really going on.
I sit half lotus for thirty minutes then change positions. Also, I find that sitting with my butt about 30 cms high is more comfortable. Especially early in the morning soon after waking up. The night sit hurts my knees much more, even after only thirty minutes.
They will tell you if there is a problem with bone, but when it comes to the more subtle tissue, like the crusciate ligaments, or the synovial fluid, they don't show zip. go to an osteopath, or have he knee scanned...
The knee is the most complex joint of the whole body and can experience problems that the eye, hand or x-ray cannot see. As a therapist, I saw far too many people with joint problems, whose doctors had diagnosed nothing wrong.
A doctor is a doctor. Not an osteopath or chiropractor.
Please trust me - get a second opinion, and have the knee SCANNED.
Language is certainly a factor in all things I do here - like doctor visits. My command of the language ain't great.
Anyway, thanks so much everyone for your advice.
Hmmmm. I wonder what anyone has to say about psychosomatic ["it's all in your head"] symptoms.
Very often when the whole being is undergoing some kind of upheaval, it manifests in physical symptoms which Western medicine examines, finds no physical cause and dismisses. The underlying reason is never investigated and the problem doesn't go away.
18 months ago I got investigated for bowel cancer, diverticulitis, any number of gastro problems involving very personal and painful examinations .... when all my inner self was trying to say was "I have mental health problems, when are you going to listen to me? OK if you are not going to listen to me I will MAKE you realise you are very ill"
A holistic approach might find something that this osteopath has missed. I might PM you about this if you wouldn't mind.
In TCM or TOM (Traditional Chinese Medicine, or Traditional Oriental Medicine) The emotions and feelings can neve be separated from the physical feelings. The emotions are seen as being 'part and parcel' of the medical condition. the two are inseparable. They are never thought of as two different issues, it just doesn't figure at all.
If the spinal cord carries nervous impulses up and down the body, it stands to reason it must carry emotional impulses, too, doesn't it?
Western Medicine has been a little slower to connect the two, but now of course there is much store held in treating the patient psychologically as well as physically. In many different therapies and treatments, counselling is given as part of the treatment... for example for AIDS patients and for cancer sufferers... But most doctors now see the distinct connection - and advantages of - adressing any emotional issues arising with the medical condition.
However, whilst I think you are absolutely right to consider psychosomatic causes for your condition, and whilst I agree they may be a factor, thre is no arguing with pain. Make sure you eliminate akl probable physical causes, before seeking other emotional sources.
Right now, eliminate all self-reproach and self-recrimination. Whatever led you to this state meotionally is immaterial right now. Lay it aside. Accept it. But concentrte on getting bettetr, not on what may have caused it.
It's like the man shot with an arrow... he doesn't sit and analyse the wood of the shaft, the colour and texture of the flight feathers, the exquisite craftsmanship of the forged arrow-head - he just wants to pull the damn thing out and heal!!
When all the different doctors and specialists told me that my back injury and nerve damage was probably permanent and that I would have to find a way to live with the chronic pain, my regular doctor suggested I come to him once a month for a 30 minute counseling session so we could work on my coping skills and emotions. We've been doing this for almost 4 years and I feel it's been absolutely crucial for my overall wellbeing. He's a General Practitioner with a lot of counseling experience and I always leave his office feeling joyful and empowered, like I could take on the world. He understands the connections between the physical and the emotional and doesn't believe in the whole "It's all in your head" stuff. He says pain is pain, and like Fede said, "There's no arguing with pain".
Troy, if you can, take Fede's advice and get the knees scanned. If you can find where the problem is coming from, great. If it turns out that you're somehow unable to find a direct cause and the pain is affecting your life, look for some counseling from a Westerner who understands the connections between the physical and emotional.
A lot of people have a hard time making themselves want to meditate. The ego doesn't like to be scrutinized in the light of day and will often do almost anything to keep working in the dark. It's a wily little devil. :winkc: But remember, there's nothing at all to fear. The mind will come up with all sorts of ideas and pictures and the trick is not to get invested in them. They're diversions and at the end of the day they don't actually mean anything. It's all just "thinking" and "thinking" can't break your bones or kill you. If you don't take it too seriously, "thinking" can't actually hurt you at all.
So keep up the practice and sit in a chair of you have to. I have to sit on my bed with three pillows behind me to lean on. That's the only way I can do it and it doesn't matter so much how you do it. Just do it.
Federica, where can I go for a scan? What is this anyway? What kind of doctor does scans?
Thanks so much,
Troy.
Palzang
Now he goes to a sports medicine clinic, and says that his knee stays quite healthy so long as he's diligent in doing his physical therapy exercises. He also had to give up sitting in full or even half-lotus posture.
Thanks everyone.
If the pain first started coming when you put a certain kind of stress on it, it sounds like osteo-arthritis. The cartilage in your knee began wearing out a certain way, and the pain was a result of the bones rubbing against each other. There are ways to rebuild the cartilage in your knee, but it will be scar tissue cartilage, which will only afford so much relief. But, it will be better than nothing. You can also take medications like Voltaren or Ibuprofen, but you'll want to do both, to limit your consumption of medication. Anything they give you to treat pain is either going to be hard on your liver or stomach.
Painn-killers and anti-inflammatories do exactly that; they 'kill' pain, and prevent or reduce inflammation.
But they are addressing the symptom, not the cause.
I don't know what the situation ios where you live, with regard to health insurance, or availability of such treatment, but yes, do whatever you can to get to the bottom of this.
There's a line in a 'song' called "wear Sunscreen" that goes:
"Be kind to your knees: you'll miss them when they're gone....!"
Ain't that the truth!!
I didn't say that an osteopath did them (although they probably do). I said an orthopedic surgeon does them. Not the same thing. An orthopedic surgeon is an MD, an osteopath is a DO. Personally I'd trust an MD more than a DO, but your choice. Sorry, don't know the Korean word for MRI, but it's such a standard diagnostic tool that I'm sure you wouldn't have trouble getting one.
Palzang
The body is an energy system and the purpose of lotus is to close the circuit, conserve energy. If you look at it that way, you'll see that there are other sitting poses that do the same thing. There's a wonderful phenomenon called 'lotus knee'. It sounds like that's what you have. The simple fact is that the lotus is a hatha yoga asana and asanas should NEVER be forced. There are preparatory poses and follow-up poses that you'd be wise to learn. http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/488
The following are three very effective knee exercises to cure and prevent 'runners knee' which is much more debilitating than 'lotus knee'. Try them out. Hopefully, they will help.
Standing Leg Lifts: Stand with your back against the wall. Lift one leg up as high as you can with the knee straight. Hold for five seconds, then bend your knee to relax, hold for five seconds. Straighten your leg again, and do five of these before switching to the other leg. Over time, see if you can build up to ten seconds.
Foot Turns: Lie down or sit in a chair and stretch both legs out, knees straight and feet pointed up toward the knees. Tighten your thigh muscles and turn your feet out as far as you can, holding for ten seconds. Now turn your feet in as far as you can and hold for ten seconds, keeping your thigh muscles tight for the entire exercise. Do three of these sets.
Foot Press: Either sitting or lying down, put one foot on top of the other and pull up with your lower foot as you push down with the upper foot. Hold that for ten seconds, and then switch feet and repeat. Try five sets of these.
Palzang
Thanks again everyone,
Troy.
It's been a long time since I said I'd get the MRI. But, well, I went to a hospital yesterday and made an appointment for this Friday. I know Palzang and maybe others have said it's expensive but boy oh boy. I didn't ask at the hospital how much it costs but my boss told me it could be about 400,000 won which is in the neighborhood of $400 US. That's quite a lot of money. I'll pay I'll pay, but it dawned on me that I don't know what good could come of getting an MRI. So, if someone out there, Palzang or someone else, could clue me in here, I'd really appreciate it. A couple of people have told me that usually MRIs don't reveal any problem at all. One lady told me that doctors often recommend them so that the hospital can make money!
So, what good could come from getting an MRI?
Thanks much, Troy.
Palzang
And you know, since this pain only started after several months of regularly sitting half lotus for an hour or more (with a break in between sits), nearly every day, then I suppose just sitting in a chair, which doesn't hurt my knees, will solve the problem. Yes, no, maybe? I was sitting in a chair here at the temple, during meditation, at one time, but the old lady who lives here (she'd be the perfect mean ol' Catholic nun if this were a church) complained, so I stopped. But I can go back to it.
I'd rather not spend the time and money on an MRI if it's not going to do me any more good than not doing it. I guess I sound pretty wishy washy here. I haven't gotten serious about the other suggestions. These are all symptoms of my character, for sure!
Thanks for letting me bug you all. Troy.
Palzang
Sue
But, I thought that if I get the MRI and it shows damage, then what? I've got to do some things to fix the damage. If the MRI shows now tissue damage, then, I can rest more easily. In either case, it seems like the best thing to do is stop sitting on the floor so much. Now I sit on chairs. In the morning I sit in an odd position. On a low chair, I sit with my knees in front of me and the soles of my feet pointing up and the tops of my feet on the floor. For 30 minutes in the morning. No pain. At night I sit longer on a chair in a regular chair position. No pain then either.
There is still pain when I walk or when I twist my legs in an odd way. But there's no harsh pain like I used to feel when sitting.
I've downloaded the yoga postures that someone here recommended. Sorry I don't remember who. I'll sit on the floor twice a week and will do the prep poses before the sit and the follow up poses after the sit. Also, I've decided to do the leg things that someone suggested. I appreciate all the suggestions.
I've contacted a raw food / sports therapist doctor (I don't know what kind of doctor but he was a chiropractor for 20 years) for a consultation. His name is Dr. Douglas Graham.
I'll post here what he recommends. I've been eating mostly raw foods for years and years. He may very well suggest that I give up the cooked portion of my diet, or the great majority of it. I've been unwilling to do this for years and years.
Troy.
Here (in Boston) the usual way diagnosis and treatment is approached is; get an X-ray first, that shows if the is a bone problem - small fracture, misalignment or decreased joint space which points to the cause of the pain. Then get an MRI to show soft tissue problem - torn meniscus, tendon or cartilage wear. From there the treatment depends on the extent of the damage and the preferences of the doctor. Artrosopic surgery can correct for meniscus problems and some cartilage/tendon problems if you are the right candidate, usually under 50 yo. Fractures and misaligments can be helped with Physiacl Therapy and relearning proper aligment during activities. Joint deterioration - my problem - can be addressed in a few ways depending on the state of advancement, there are injections that can replace the cushioning in the joint and give a person a year or more of painfree, complete movement, partial or total knee replacements.
There are almost as many treatment/success protocols as there are doctor/patients. Each person has a different 9yet similar) recovery path. (ain't it the truth?)
If you don't trust what you doctor is telling you and it doesn't rest easy with you, go for another opinion. It may not be what you wan tto hear but at least you'll know it is considered to be "medically correct".
Best of luck.
Emma
I am happy with his suggestions. I've got a month of his time. I'd be happy to post what happens at the end of a month.
One thing he suggested is to do the preparatory and follow up yoga poses that someone here suggested. I've been doing them. And starting tonight or tomorrow I'll start the three leg exercises that this person suggested. Other than that, of course, eat raw foods. I've been eating mostly raw for many years anyway so I'm very familiar with the territory. Giving up some comfort junk foods is the place I've really got to practice.
Thanks again, Emma.