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My confession; a crisis of faith.
Jason
God EmperorArrakis Moderator
Everyone,
I have a confession to make. As much as I would like to say that my 5-6 years of study and practice has greatly diminished my suffering, an honest look at my life shows that I still suffer a great deal. Sometimes, for all of my faith in the Buddha's awakening, I doubt that such a thing is even possible. I am afraid that many people, myself included, are deluding themselves that their suffering is really diminishing; that they they are simply reducing the conditions for pain and suffering in their lives (and not eliminating them), or they are blatantly ignoring the majority of their pain and suffering out of an intense desire to be free from it.
Make no mistake, I can honestly say that Buddhism has helped me a great deal in shapping my life and my actions in a more positive way, and I definitely think I am much better off for it (I have certainly been able to reduce the conditions for pain and suffering), but I am no closer to nibbana than we as a society are to a social utopia; and I am beginning to feel about the former what Dostoyevsky eventually felt about the latter—to put it politely, they are nice ideas, but ones that are ultimately unrealistic and unobtainable. Idealistically, I find both to be beautiful ideas; but realistically, I see little to suggest that they are at all possible.
Sincerely,
Jason
I have a confession to make. As much as I would like to say that my 5-6 years of study and practice has greatly diminished my suffering, an honest look at my life shows that I still suffer a great deal. Sometimes, for all of my faith in the Buddha's awakening, I doubt that such a thing is even possible. I am afraid that many people, myself included, are deluding themselves that their suffering is really diminishing; that they they are simply reducing the conditions for pain and suffering in their lives (and not eliminating them), or they are blatantly ignoring the majority of their pain and suffering out of an intense desire to be free from it.
Make no mistake, I can honestly say that Buddhism has helped me a great deal in shapping my life and my actions in a more positive way, and I definitely think I am much better off for it (I have certainly been able to reduce the conditions for pain and suffering), but I am no closer to nibbana than we as a society are to a social utopia; and I am beginning to feel about the former what Dostoyevsky eventually felt about the latter—to put it politely, they are nice ideas, but ones that are ultimately unrealistic and unobtainable. Idealistically, I find both to be beautiful ideas; but realistically, I see little to suggest that they are at all possible.
Sincerely,
Jason
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Comments
This is completely normal.
I actually think you might be experiencing the effects of a little 'over-load'....
Hark at me, the expert....! :rolleyes:
I saw you posted something similar elsewhere, and do you know, I had mild alarm bells clanging there.
I thought:-
"hell-lo....That's not like our Elo-Jase...."
Might I suggest perhaps that you've been throwing yourself into your practise and studies with such a devoted intensity, there might be a fraction of a hint of 'burn-up'....?
You are one of the most 100% Buddhists I know.
I have often turned to you in times of bewilderment, ignorance and just plain curiosity.
You have always been able to explain absolutely everything with remarkable clarity.
Chapter and verse. Every bit of information has been underpinned by reference and quotation.
And here (although please don't take this as a criticism) might lie the problem.
Perhaps you might need to 'let your hair down'.
I'm sure that my telling you that I respect you enormously, look up to you, and find you quite the 'spiritual guide' makes you cringe with horror and dismay.
Yes, it should.
well, I do, but....
Actually, chapter and verse aside, you and I are just the same.
We're both plodding.
We don't know if we'll get there, but slow, fast, complex or simple, eventually, we'll get there just the same.
You have doubtless better boots than I.
But I feel, that barefoot, I can feel the cool grass against my toes.....
Maybe you just need to take your boots off for a while......
Who was it told Cooran to lighten up....?
With so much metta you'd need a bigger room -
Fede XX
All I can do, in that dark place, is reframe Pascal's wager to fit the situation at hand. Those are the days when I answer, if asked "How are you?", by simply saying, "Putting one foot in front of the other."
In many ways, it is like the desert patches that we go through in marriage, when everything seems stale and unprofitable - at least that is how it is with me.
This is the time when I need "soul friends" and it warms my heart that you should honour us by sharing here.
Let me ask you this:
You say: Can you tell me difference between suffering 'really' diminishing and imagining that one's suffering is diminishing? Perhaps this could be a threshold time for you where you discover that "the ox is altogether imaginary."
One other thought, which has helped me through these desert times, is that they force me away from books and texts and 'thinking about', and force me back into a more wholesome practice.
Fear not, my friend, there are oases. They may be far between but you will find another. As to whether there is a paradise garden somewhere beyond the desert, I cannot say. All I have experienced is that I have always come across a water-hole or a fellow-traveller who helps me on my way to the next tree-lined resting-place.
Thank you both for your comments and support. As much as I would like to respond and answer all of your inquiries, I simply do not have the desire to go into the complexity of my dilemma, my "crisis" if you will, right now ... at least not in written form (I would be more inclined to discuss these issues in person as I find talking an easier way to express myself at the moment, but sheer physical distance makes that impossible).
I thought that, at the vesry least, I should share where it is that I stand philosophically and spiritually so that people do not mistake me for any kind of spiritual guide (bless you Fede), only a person who has spent a lot of time studying and practicing a particular spiritual path that has provided me with certain benefits but not [yet] true and lasting happiness. At this point in time, uncertainty seems to be the one constant in my life.
Best wishes,
Jason
Everyone goes through doubt and uncertainty. Only those new to a system can be 100% convinced by it.
The last decades of her life, Mother Theresa felt that she had lost God, but she still continued, in her desperation doing what she knew she had to do, whether she felt God was there or not.
I hope that you will find your way. And we will all be here for you in whatever capacity you need us.
And so say all of us...
Jason, whatever you choose to do, however you decide to tackle this, don't please, forget to 'come home' now and then.
We're always here with a hot pot of tea, and a slice of whatever takes your fancy.
I wish we could speak.
Right now though, I think I'd settle for giving you a hug.
Yes, some will delude themselves with the same techniques that others use to touch Nirvana. There's no helping it it just is. Please don't grow weary and let things fall away, which is an easy thing to do. Perhaps it is time to take a break and take refuge in the island of self.
Just be, and breathe. Breathe and be.
Then carry water and chop wood.
What did Georgre Harrison say,
'....and the time will come when you'll see we're all one, and that life flows on within you and without you.":winkc:
Suffering a great deal with ONES OWN issues and problems and questions is, I think, preferrable to being empty and shallow, and refusing to deal with things as they affect us. These burdens and problems and fears and doubts have the capacity to help us rise to better occasions. Our valleys of torment provide us with the means to enjoy the mountaintops better.
Truth is internal and not outside of us. Fare Forward patiently. You will get there. If not in this lifetime, there'll be others.
May the Force Be Always With Thee!
Palzang
Hi Jason,
Sometimes you have to smash it all apart to get out of the straightjacket.
The sooner you drop the "faith" stuff, the sooner you will be forced to 'see' what Buddha taught.
Namaste
Kris
But if you need to off-load, PM me. I know you said that talking face-to-face is best for you right now....
but I can't offer you that.
Feel free to yabber, if you want.
Talking's always great if you can find someone that appreciates that all you need right now is a sounding board that's willing to just listen....
people are quick to jump in wih advice, beause somethimes, they think that's what you want.
You write well.
let me know if I can at least listen.
Hugs friend.
And much Metta, always.
Hi Jason,
I think you should do whatever makes you feel better, regardless. I understand what it's like to run up against stuff. For myself it's been like I have always had separate compartments in my brain for different aspects of who I am.
Dharma has had its own little box, which has allowed me to (hypocritically) dabble when I feel like it and opt out when I don't. This is just my way of dealing with it and taking it on a bit at a time whilst keeping it at a distance which suited me.
In this way there were a set of principles, beliefs and practices which I (sort-of) felt should be adhered to but which I only occasionally adhered to (when I chose). I flip-flopped about between them and the other stuff.
Lately though, it's as if the Dharma box has expanded and began to enclose the other things and now I find 'Dharma' in all of them - as if the distinction between Dharma and "real life" is diminishing.
Anyway, that probably doesn't help at all but shows what a hypocrite I am. In any case I wish you all the best and have always had the utmost respect for your contributions.
Namaste
Kris
Pity I can't send some virtual home-made cookies to you - they work wonders!
Hello Jason
Nice to meet you.
I don't know much and am fairly new to Buddhism but something tells me that Palzang is right.
Maybe you really are starting to see the depths of suffering and rather than working on eliminating the conditions for suffering you are seeing that this is really an avoidance tactic.
It sounds like you have pulled the rug out from right under you and are looking with complete honestly at your practice and your life. I think this is a really positive step in awakening despite some fear you may be feeling at the moment.
Go with this fear and look at this groundless feeling you have at the moment, meditate on it and keep on going deeper. Stay with it; it could be telling you something really important.
That of course is just my opinion but it sounds like you are seeing things as they really are and that is not a bad thing, it can only be of benefit.
I wish you well and as always this will pass and you will move beyond this.
Remember what Chogyam Trungpa used to tell his students when they breathlessly told him of some amazing spiritual experience or awakening they'd just had: "That's wonderful!...But no big deal, eh?" That goes for the big, negative experiences as well. You'll find your way again sooner or later...or it will find you.
Much love and big, gentle hugs,
Boo
Palzang
In hindsight, one good thing that has come from all of this, besides the wonderful support and encouragement, is that I have been able to simplify my problems by seeing them in light of the first and second Noble Truths. I have seen that my suffering, regardless of the particulars, is being caused by my desires, i.e., I do not want to feel depressed, so my depression is "hard to bear," I want to see some tangible results from my practice, so the relatively small amount of progress that I have observed is "hard to bear," et cetera.
What still plagues me, however, is tied into the Fourth Noble Truth; that is, the path that is supposed to lead to the abandonment of the cause of suffering does not seem to be getting me anywhere, at least not as far as I had hoped. My suffering is hurting myself and others; I am acting in unskillful ways, and my actions are conditioned by the negative mental states which in turn are conditioned by my suffering. In essence, it appears to be a feed-back loop that bewilders me, and I am having difficulty in discerning "the release."
None of this is said to engender sympathy or advice as much as it is meant to be cathartic. Having moved away from my friends, family, and spiritual community, there is literally nobody that I can talk to about these types of things and, as a result, my practice is suffering. I have become discouraged, I lack motivation, and I have fallen into the same old habits that I have been trying to break—this has continued to occur until something seemed like it had to give, and expressing my feelings of anguish and doubt is the end result.
Sincerely,
Jason
Well, Jason, I hope you don't mind if we do share some thoughts of goodwill. Everybody deserves expressions of goodwill, whether their situation be hard or exalted.
I think what our friends Brigid and Palzang said right above was very apt and to the point.
Cookies and ice cream seem like good seasonal nourishment to me. Take a break for a while, and if there's spiritual work to be done it can be moved slowly, "bucket by bucket." There's no need to do it all, as it were, in one fell swoop.
All spiritual work is truly to make us better neighbors and friends to others. Sri Ramakrisna often said that the tell-tale sign of an enlightened person was one who was all-loving and deeply concerned for the well-being of all.
Individual sojourning is just part of the equation, but we do need our joys and our loves, and need not to take ourselves too seriously. Otherwise we'll lose our sense of humour. Once that's gone, the battle's over.
Fond Regards Always!
Well...I'm just throwing my hat into the ring here, see if it fits on anything, and I really, really don't want you to take anything the wrong way, but....
What is the traditional symbol of the Dhamma - The Eightfold Path.....
The Wheel.....right ?
And people keep talking about the cycles of Life, and Death, and Life again.. and so on... you know, The cyclical existence of Samsara....
You don't feel as if you're getting anywhere because - here's the thing - you're not.
You are - to put it bluntly - going round in circles.
And the reason you're not getting anywhere, is because you've developped an attachment - a craving.
To sharp improvement. To progress. To perfection.
You think, that with everything you've been doing, with all the Suttas you've been reading, all the meditation you've been practising, all the wisdom you have been exposed to - you'd think by now you could see 'Light at the end of the tunnel.'
You think that by now, you might actually have developped enough Wisdom, Compassion and equanimity and Loving Kindness... to be a lot more 'Illuminated' than you are.
You want to get off the carousel, don't you?
But you're human, Jason!
You have already achieved the most auspicious re-birth that can really take you there!
Trouble is - and you realise this is all complete hypothesis and guesswork; I could be sooooo way out, I'm in a different country - you've grown attached to The ambition. I get the impression that the goal has become such a focus for you, that you've lost sight of the space you still have to cover....
And I think you need to let it go, to get hold of it properly.....
as I have said, I could be really out with this one.
And I really am not trying to insult you, because I could be completely misinterpreting what you're saying....and I don't want to risk hurting your feelings or causing offence, but...
Is your ego trying to convince you "you're better than this!" - or should be....?
Like I said... if the hat's not a good fit, feel free to toss it back.....:o
with much metta, Jason.
You did write: "5-6 years of study and practice..." Get real bucko!
Gautama spent longer than that in his practice before the full flowering of buddhahood. And how many kalpas of preparation & service & practice in previous lifetimes before that? Lots.
Even if you are not aiming at buddhahood, it takes many lives to turn upstream against the current of worldliness.
So let the waves of flatness & depression wash over you, for they come to nearly every practitioner, just do not embrace these sorrows closely, try to be even-minded or even create positive thoughts (feeble though they may be) during the downer sessions.
The practice of Buddhism (and it's called "practice" for a reason) doesn't lead to quick results. It's more like peeling an onion layer by layer. If you're really careful and do each layer one at a time, how long is it going to take? A long time! And when you get done, what have you got then?
As my teacher has said on many an occasion, if you want something easy, go find another religion.
Palzang
I often liken a spiritual practice to learning an instrument. When you start, you make a Gawdawful noise, frighten the dogs and irritate the neighbours (and yourself quite often)
As you practice you get better - the dogs stop howling and the neighbours stop banging on the wall except in the early hours of the morning, which is reasonable.
But you always reach a plateau - you are now quite good, can play several tunes very capably and are proud of them. BUT there is this feeling that you could do so much better - a virtuoso performance if you only tried harder, practiced for longer, were more focused.
That is the time when a lot of people quietly put the instrument back in its box, shove it in the loft and never look at it again.
The other option is slogging on with it, accepting that it is going to be much harder work to get "good" than it was to get "competent" .... is this somewhere near where you are at?
I think you put it very well, Fede, and I'm glad you agreed, Jason. Whenever I suffer and wish to know where it's coming from I go to the ego first and there I usually find the culprit. Our egos are very, very good at manipulating us and making us suffer. So being in pain, whatever kind of pain it is, is the perfect time to contemplate the teachings of not-self and turn our intellectual understanding of them into experiential understanding.
I also wanted to add that if these challenges begin to overwhelm you, Jason, go to the nearest soup kitchen, homeless shelter, wherever, and volunteer for a few hours. That's the fastest acting medicine at our disposal.
Much love,
Boo
Yup, that's the antidote! Nothing like worrying about someone else's problems to take your mind off yours. As Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche says in his video, "What about me?", "when you're happy, I'm happy."
Palzang
Interesting suggestion, I will keep it in mind.
Jason
"Roots in the mud" - exactly! As Oscar Wilde put it, "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars".
There was a wonderful prog about Tibet on the BBC which included footage from the '30s and '40s. We were shown HHDL seeing it and exclaiming in joy as he recognised his family. He said, recognising his elder brother, "I used to bully him". Elsewhere he has written of his violent temper tantrums as a child. Sitting with my son and me, asking about my late wife, he wept with us and, later, we laughed together and sat in silence.
It is precisely this aspect of transforming the 'mud', of making it fertile and productive, of claiming their authentic, liberated humanity that attracted me, first, to Jesus and then to Gotama - both of them as I understand them. These, along with TNH, HHDL and others, don't simply stand on the clean pavement and tell me to look up; they are down here in the gutter with me and support me, showing me how to turn my face to the stars.
There aint no flies on ME!
(They all did their business and left.)
Thanks Fede, I wish I could have heard that about a year and a half ago.
Ah, I probably wouldn't have listened then. Phunny the fire's one needs to walk through to burn down illusions.