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Earthquake "karma"
Simonthepilgrim
Veteran
The actress Sharon Stone, who is a Buddhist, has got into trouble for suggesting that the earthquakes in China are the result of "bad karma". See:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/outrage-in-china-after-stone-says-earthquake-may-be-due-to-bad-karma-835869.html
We have, indeed, seen similar comments here and, I presume, Buddhist boards elsewhere on the Net.
I admit that I find this post-Calvinistic attitude revolting and 'unBuddhist' in the extreme. If we are to take this view, surely we must assume, too, that the invasion and oppression of Tibet is also the result of 'bad karma' - not to mention the slaughters of the genocides, 9/11, Katrina, e tutti quanti.
In my opinion, Ms Stone does neither herself nor the perception of Buddhist understanding any good at all and would do better to stick to her chosen trade. And, if she wants to gloat over the death of thousands, let her put it down to the reality of her own schadenfreude.
Reminds me of Jeremy Hardy's question whether, if, as some Christians believe, AIDS is God's punishment for homosexuality, was the Black Death his punishment on the 14th Century for wearing funny clothes.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/outrage-in-china-after-stone-says-earthquake-may-be-due-to-bad-karma-835869.html
We have, indeed, seen similar comments here and, I presume, Buddhist boards elsewhere on the Net.
I admit that I find this post-Calvinistic attitude revolting and 'unBuddhist' in the extreme. If we are to take this view, surely we must assume, too, that the invasion and oppression of Tibet is also the result of 'bad karma' - not to mention the slaughters of the genocides, 9/11, Katrina, e tutti quanti.
In my opinion, Ms Stone does neither herself nor the perception of Buddhist understanding any good at all and would do better to stick to her chosen trade. And, if she wants to gloat over the death of thousands, let her put it down to the reality of her own schadenfreude.
Reminds me of Jeremy Hardy's question whether, if, as some Christians believe, AIDS is God's punishment for homosexuality, was the Black Death his punishment on the 14th Century for wearing funny clothes.
0
Comments
I couldn't agree more, Simon. Well said.
I seem to remember the same uproar when some ex football manager who had got tied up in New Age spirituality spoke out about handicapped and disabled people being the subject of bad karma in previous lives.
When oh when will people in the public eye realise that their mindless musings are taken far too seriously and they should think about what they are going to say? Or could the press not stop giving these utterances the gravitas they don't deserve?
Footballers, their wives, models, film stars et al are not, by and large, spiritual experts. While they are entitled to their private opinions, it would be more mindful on their part to consider the way their words will reflect on their own religion, faith or philosophy before opening their big mouths.
Now there's an interesting profession.
But I agree as well. I don't give these kinds of quacks the time of day.
"Yes. Of course. We are punished for feudalism. Every event is due to one's karma."
Here's the full interview: http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=399
But what does he know, right?
Palzang
My opinion - and I am not contradicting HH the DL - is that he knows far more than I, but I am convinced that had he had more time (the interview was hurried, and he was somewhat vexed and impatient) he would have elaborated and tried to expand upon the subject.
Because during his talk at the Albert Hall, which I (and several hundred others!) attended, he was asked the question, whether the events happening were as a result of Karma, and he was far more reluctant to commit himself to such a definite, precise and 'black and white' answer...
He explained that the law of Karm a is univeral, and that we are all subject to it.... but he was not prepared to either insinuate that the Burmese merited the events unfolding, that China merited the events unfolding, or that Tibetans merited the events unfolding... he explained that Karma was not a question of 'just desserts', but was an extremely complex process requiring much study and understanding....
"One of the four things to not be thinking about because we would go crazy, quite mad!" he giggled, tapping his forehead.....
Palzang
Every "oh mummy pat my tum" has an effect - get to it folks
I am truly troubled by what you wrote here, Palzang-la. I have read it over a number of times and have sat with the ideas expressed. It surprises me. Let me 'deconstruct' what I understand of your points:
1. You say: "Ms. Stone's comments were pointless and hurtful (poor Chinese!)" It is the last two words that concern me. As ever, I try to hear what they would sound like if they were about another disaster, such as Katrina. How kind or benign would the words "poor Americans!" be after someone had attributed the loss and despair of those affected by the hurricane? As a net-friend, I would most strongly urge you, dear Palzang, to look into your attitude towards the suffering beings in Sichuan Province and lay aside your anger at the Chinese regime.
2. You say: "the murder of monks and nuns and the rape of a Dharmic country like Tibet will create horrendous causes for those who perpetrate such atrocities." I seem to recall a thread here on the topic of 'national karma' and a general conclusion that such a notion is simply a half-educated construct of half-understood ideas. Are you saying that China, as a nation, and the Sichuan Province in particular, attracts some sort of 'punishment'? What, then, do we do about our own nations which have genocidally attacked our own native peoples? Was Katrina a 'punishment' for the way in which Native Americans have been treated? Was the winter of 1947 a 'punishment' on the British for our attempts to wipe out the Welsh? And, even if we werwe wise enough to discern this to be the case, would we then have left the sufferers to their fate?
But you go further and posit the notion of a "Dharmic country". I do not pretend to be as deep a student of the texts as, say, Elohim and I should be grateful for a reference to a scripture to support the idea. I am also troubled by the notion that the death of monks and nuns is, somehow, to be paid for "karmically" by the innocent, somehow makes the deaths, maimings, etc., following the earthquake OK-ish. This is not the Dharma in which I take refuge.
"What," I wondered, "do I find makes me so uncomfortable about this concept?" I think it must be its similarity to notions of 'manifest destiny', 'white man's burden', 'Christian nation', or 'taliban'. Tibetan history, aside from that of monasticism, has contained at least as many horrors as ours or the Chinese. It is one of the problems that we have with Tibetan historiography that it centres so much on the monastic and avoids the military and economic.
There was an abhorrent idea around, some years ago, arising out of 'esoteric work', that the Holocaust was the 'karmic consequence' of the Israelites' genocide of the Canaanites (which probably never happened anyway). Are we now to replace antisemitism with "antisinoism"?
It is unjust and short-sighted to ignore that fact that Tibetans have opposed the Chinese invasions with force of arms, not just with peaceful prayers. To deny the deaths of brave freedom fighters and to pretend that Tibet is some sort of peaceful 'Shangri-La' is just another sort of denial. In Iraq, we speak of 'insurgents' who want to rid their country of the invaders but we pass over the armed resistance to the PLA in silence.
The people of Sichuan and suffering and dying. The horror is not yet over. To make it "their own fault" seems, at best, ungenerous.
Please understand, dear Palzang, that my long association with the Free Tibet movement and my respect for the living sangha are what prompts me to share these thoughts with you. Your words appear to reveal a mindset of aversion towards the people of China which cannot be useful to you. If, however, I have misread and misunderstood you, please accept my sincere apologies. I have had to confront the aversion to which I refer within myself and I know the harm it does.
There are just too many gaps here to fill to say that the deaths of 10000 and the suffering of hundreds of thousands of others is the result of karma. And Sharon Stone's comments typify everything I hate about the so-called "Hollywood Elite". A bunch of idiotic liberals that spout ideas off the top of their heads and expect the rest of us to listen. She is no different than some of the Bible Belt preachers who spew forth fire and brimstone and hate everything that doesn't follow their teachings. Same with the Taliban and the terrorist cells operating in Iraq.
While I do not wish to offend anybody or turn this into a "sectarian" debate on kamma, I must stongly disgaree with the idea that the earthquake in the Sichuan province was kamma-produced. There are many misconception in regard to kamma and the ways in which kamma is said to work. To begin with, the Buddha said, "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect" (AN 6.63). The word itself simply means "action." Thus, kamma is commonly defined as intentional actions of body, speech, and mind. Intention (cetana) is a product of the aggregate of mental formations (sankharakhandha). The cause by which kamma comes into play is contact (phassa). Furthermore, according to Nyanatiloka's Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, vipaka is "any ... mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc.), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life."
Essentially, volitional actions of body, speech, and mind produce fruits or results that are said to have the potential to ripen during this life-time, in the next birth or in later births. In the words of S. Dhammika, "... every intentional action modifies our consciousness, thus building our character and thereby influencing our behaviour, our experience and consequently our destiny. Positive intentional actions (motivated by generosity, love and wisdom) tend towards consequences that are experienced as positive while intentional negative actions (motivated by greed, hatred and delusion) tend towards consequences that are experienced as negative." Additionally, the commentarial tradition of Theravada denies that everything is the result of kamma. According to them, there are five natural laws (panca-niyamas) which operate in the physical and mental worlds. The five laws are seasonal laws (utu-niyama), biological laws (bija-niyama), psychological laws (citta-niyama), kammic laws (kamma-niyama), and natural laws (dhamma-niyama) *.
Therefore, I believe that in certain contexts, it would be appropriate to think of kamma as "habit energy" in that the potential effect of an action can be to strengthen certain physical and psychological reactions. This is especially true in regard to psychological reactions considering that vipaka is limited specifically to "mental phenomena." Corporeal things are never called kamma-vipaka; instead, they are termed kammaja or kamma-samutthana (kamma-produced). This category would include internal bodily phenomena such as the sense organs and these phenomena are said to be conditioned through wholesome or unwholesome volitional actions in a previous existence. To summerize, kamma is intentional actions of body, speech and mind that are performed in the present moment; the present moment is conditioned by the results of past actions combined with the results of present actions; the psychological results are termed kamma-vipaka; the corporeal results are termed kamma-samutthana; and earthquakes are not kamma-produced.
Sincerely,
Jason
Thanks Jason,
At last, the voice of reason.
Kris
The other thing that no one has apparently even noticed is that all the press coverage has been on the Chinese victims of the earthquakes. Did anyone happen to notice where the quakes took place? Western Sichuan Province, up in the mountains. That area used to be part of Kham, the easternmost province of Tibet. In other words, there are many Tibetan communities in the area that were no doubt as hard hit as the Chinese communities you read about. But no press coverage of that. No one knows how many Tibetans died or even if anyone went to their rescue. That's where the comment "poor Chinese" came from. Everyone treats them with kid gloves. Maybe if the West stopped seeing China as the golden cow that will make all us capitalists rich we could get past all this flimflammery in the press and government. China suppresses Tibetan monks and nuns with tanks and storm troops, and what do you hear? Cries of outrage over monks and nuns throwing stones at them! Huh?
What also really irritates me about the whole thing is that the deaths in the schools were unnecessary. If the Chinese officials hadn't been so corrupt, the schools might have been built properly and not collapse like a house of cards when the ground started shaking, and all those poor kids who got crushed inside would have been alive now. What kind of karma is that do you think?
As for whether or not collective karma is "real" or not, I'm just repeating what I have been taught by my teachers. If you don't like it, talk to them and straighten them out. Even the Dalai Lama has said that the bad karma accumulated by Tibet when it was a powerful, warlike nation was the cause that laid the groundwork for Chinese invasion. It's really all just karma.
Palzang
Good point. My girlfriend mentioned to me today that she thought is was interesting when her co-workers were discussing the earthquake and instead of talking about the "poor children," they were talking about how the structural damage would have been much, much less if China had something comparable OSHA. It seems that the majority of the deaths were due to poor construction than anything else.
Jason
Palzang
Hi Palzang,
Perhaps they were just repeating what they had been taught by their teachers?;););)
:rolleyes:
Just kidding
I am very aware of how the idea of karma can be easily misunderstood and misapplied. And it doesn't just happen in the West where one would understand such a thing. It even happens in Tibet.
I was just reading today about a blind German woman who traveled to Tibet with her partner in 1998, I think it was, to start a school for blind children in Lhasa because there was no school in the entire country for blind children. In fact, blind children are shunned in Tibet. They are considered cursed, and parents with blind children don't educate them, don't teach them how to take care of themselves, and pretty much ignore them. This is in a country where compassion is supposed to be learned with mother's milk!
It's hard to believe for Westerners, I think. Whatever the cause for a child's blindness, even if it is a curse, why wouldn't you still treat that child with compassion and do everything you could to improve the quality of that child's life? I've known blind people in this country who were perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and contributed to society at least as well as sighted people. I had a Religion professor in college who was blind, and he rode the city bus to the college every day. It boggles the mind that supposedly compassionate, Buddhist people could act this way. You could say it's just a cultural thing, but that seems like a cop-out to me. I guess all you can really say about it is everyone has blind spots (excuse the pun). In the West racism is hardly unknown, and I think most people suffer from it to some degree, even unknowingly. So it doesn't pay to point fingers. But it is sad.
What brought this up is I'm going to see a movie playing here next week about six of the children from this school in Tibet who actually climbed Mt. Everest (with guides, of course). They wanted to show their countrymen that, cursed or no, they were capable of doing things also. Good for them! As my teacher often has said, you're never a prisoner of your karma!
Palzang
As a Burmese commentator said recently, it is a cause for despair that the West wrings its hands over Tibet whilst the agony of the vast 'Buddhist nation' of Burma is sidelined.
The truth is that there are hundreds of thousands who are suffering, starving, dying of disease and wounds. Their 'nationality' is irrelevant; only their pain and need matter.
The 'Sharon Stone' type of comment adds nothing but a sort of post-Christian self-satisfaction to the disasters. Isn't it time we let go of the obscenity of Augustine's notion of 'original sin' which lurks within the Western psyche? How can we, in all honesty, dedicate ourselves to the benefit of all beings whilst holding to some concept of judgment and condemnation?
It is where there is suffering and despair that the Buddha appears, that the Christ is manifest, to lighten burdens and struggle alongside weeping humanity.
It's one of those automatic knee jerks about which I have to be extremely careful myself. Oooooooooh that Right Thought ... when will it kick in?
The writings of Fr Matthew Fox, with his emphasis on 'original blessing', helped me. Since reading him - and Saint Irenaeus - I have incorporated the notion of our fundamental innocence and buddhanature/christnature into my world-view. The result is an innocent universe.
You're quite right, Simon, about the corruption and arrogance of public officials. It's certainly not limited to China. The recent crane failures in New York City attest to that. However, this particular instance cost the lives of thousands of young children, which in my book rates as criminally horrendous rather than just criminal. Especially in a country with a one child per family law.
Palzang
Hi Simon,
Got it there - spot on. Karma was never about that in the first place.
Kris
I heard, read or watched something a while back about prosecutors choosing jurors for the trial of a rapist and how they didn't want too many women on the panel because women in general had a tendency to blame the victim ("She wasn't wearing enough clothing", "She never should have been out drinking in a bar full of strange men", "She never should have gone home with him" etc. etc.) The explanation for this phenomenon is actually quite understandable. Women want to believe they have control over whether they're raped or not and want to believe it can be avoided by making better decisions. The last thing they want to think is that any woman can be a victim of rape.
I found that jury selection thing so interesting. We're a complex animal, aren't we?
As an example of what I'm trying to say: I know very well that smoking causes lung cancer, and I would certainly discourage anyone from taking up that habit. But I certainly don't think that smokers deserve to die of lung cancer. Anybody who thinks that "the punishment fits the crime" would have to be completely nuts!
As for the whole idea of collective karma, I really can't get my head around it at all. I wonder if it might be a bit of my Canadian-ness showing through - I'm not used to thinking of groups of people in such a way. Of course, I understand that customs and taboos differ widely around the world, but I don't really believe in such a thing as a national identity, or whatever you want to call it. *shrug*
Has anyone stopped to see that her comment with regard to the earthquake in China was not a statement of belief, but a speculative comment?
It was actually a question she was asking herself....
Then she mentioned that a Tibetan organisation contacted her with regard to setting up a fund to help Chinese Earthquake victims, and it made her cry, because she felt humbled, and understood that sometimes the best thing to do is to offer unconditional help to others, even if you don't like them.
At no point in the interview did she actually categorically and definitely state that Yes, absolutely, as far as she was concerned the earthquake WAS Kamma.
So it is that the media turns the comment from a speculative one to one of outright judgement and condemnation.
And then it follows that the sensationalist compunction of the Media, forces someone to apologise for something that was never said, or even implied, in the first place.....
My take?
She's a celebrity.
A fairly prominent one, who isn't shy in coming forward in some cases, on some issues...
So she has a voice, and uses it at appropriate given moments.
Due to her hightly public profile, or indeed, anybody's who is in the public eye, some things about these people, becomes public knowledge.
But I suspect much of it is hyjacked by the media, and blown up again, to sell their airspace, name, paper.... whatever.
So although information becomes public knowledge, I doubt there is little that is distorted, at the moment it comes to the public's attention.
I think at this moment, she was caught off-guard.
She wasn't attending this function to speak about anything to remotely do with Tibet, the Olympics, China, the earthquake or anything of that ilk.
Had she been, she would have had a prepared speech, carefully composed to reflect her sentiments, but phrased, I am sure, and couched in terms of correctness....
This question caught her on the hop.
And it came back and bit her, where the doorknob should have hit her....
Because the media then swooped on her statement and beat her black and blue with it.
But she tied to think about what she was saying. She was speaking slowly and deliberately, and attempting to use the right language. She tried to convey her thought processes, and explain how she had arrived at the conclusion that ultimately, no matter what, we must develop and cultivate Compassion, laying our personal feelings aside.
That's right isn't it?
That is Right View and Right Intention, Right Effort and Right Awareness?
She got a couple or Wrong 'uns too, granted.
I of course, get it Right all the time.
as I'm sure, does everyone else here.
Particularly when we have the world media shoving microphones and cameras in our faces and asking us unexpected questions, the replies of which hinge upon our own personal and very often (rightly) private spiritual or religious views.
Something a friend said, on another forum, hit me fair and square betwen the eyes.....
The bottom line is that it matters not what happens to you, or how it is is generated. The event, circumstance or happening is of no importance.
What is important, vital and of enormous consequence, is what you do with it.
There's your Karma - right there.
Palzang
Apologies Pally, sorry if I failed to check.....
We agree then.
Palzang
I apologise if my last post sounded like a criticism of your views. It wasn't meant that way, but I think I tried to write too many ideas at once.
I have meant some people who make gloating remarks about karma whenever someone they don't like gets it in the neck. Those folks bug me, a lot! :mad:
On the other hand, and it took me a while to figure this out, plenty of Buddhists can say "Experiencing _______ is often the result of _______ in a past life" without meaning "You deserve all the bad things that happen to you!" Like in my previous example, saying "Well, he was 30 years a smoker" doesn't mean "He deserved to get cancer."
I do have a tendency to ascribe hidden motives to a lot of what people around me say and do. It's something I need to work on.
Everyone else's is their responsibility.
As my old Ma used to say "Don't wish harm to those who do you ill, it will come anyway" and that includes very sneakily thinking that their kamma will catch up with them. Because that is not Right Thinking, is it?