Buddhism and the 12 steps

Iawa

I have been referred to certain twelve step groups to address areas in which my life can be improved upon. My dilemma is that I am a non-thesist and I'm supposed to come to believe in a power greater than myself. Then I'm required to turn my will and life over to the care of God (of my understading of course). That is if I care to proceede my way through the steps.

I guess I'm just way GOD weary. Most meetings require closing with the "Lord's Prayer".

Any thoughts out there?
Thanks

federica

Substitute the word God for Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha....
This is where your refuge lies.
The triple gem is your 'Port in a Storm'....

When the Lord's Prayer arises, lower your head, and recite the five precepts....

In my limited sphere of thinking, what I have always come to understand (and I am probably mistaken) is that Theology requires you surrender your efforts to, and offer them up to God.
In Buddhism, the Buck Stops Here.
But the Refuge in the Triple Gem, and the 5 precepts, give you the opportunity to know ther is always something you CAN fall back on, and harness strength from.

The Eightfold Path.

Brigid

Hi, Iawa.

I have a lot of thoughts on this and will try to put them down in as succinct and orderly a way as I can.

(1) Twelve Step programs work. They've saved countless lives since the advent of their existence. They don't work for everyone all the time, but they do work. They improve lives and for this reason alone they're a valuable resource.

(2) These programs have a lot in common with Buddhism and the ways in which we train our minds when following the Buddhist path. So you'll probably feel quite at home. They are also as varied as the Buddhist schools and traditions and not all groups put as much emphasis on god as others. There are Christian Twelve Step programs and there are atheist programs as well as many others, including those that do not emphasize any particular religion or philosophy other than its own.

(3) If you have no choice but to attend a group that does have a heavy god influence, don't let that deter you from benefiting. You can view the idea of 'god' as your wiser self, your deeper mind, or your own Buddha nature. You don't have to visualize something that lies outside yourself and has more power than you do. Every step you'll be taking in this group will be taken by you and no one else. If the group ends each session with The Lord's Prayer, you do not have to recite it along with everyone else. As long as you show respect to those in the group who do want and need a god in their lives you'll have no problems.

My family has a long history with these groups and I've seen first hand how they can drastically improve and even save lives. My advice would be to find one you're comfortable with and go for it. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

Good luck to you, Iawa, and remember, one day at a time.

Your friend,
Brigid

Brigid

I guess it took me a long time to post because Fede's response wasn't there when I was thinking this question over. And she brings up a wonderful point. If you want to look for a power bigger than yourself, The Triple Gems are it! That's for sure. Thanks for pointing that out, Fede.

Palzang

12 Steps is something we have used a lot at our temple because, if you think about it, we're all addicted to samsara, to desire. The Buddha said that he looked out over the entire world and saw it aflame, aflame with desire. So whatever form of desire you are dealing with, I think the 12 Steps can be useful. And as Fede said, instead of saying "God", say "higher power", and that can mean whatever you wish it to mean, namely, the Three Precious Jewels. It is like taking refuge when you vow to take refuge in the Three Precious Jewels. It is exactly the same in the 12 Steps where you turn over your power to the Three Precious Jewels.

Palzang

srivijaya

Palzang wrote: »

It is like taking refuge when you vow to take refuge in the Three Precious Jewels. It is exactly the same in the 12 Steps where you turn over your power to the Three Precious Jewels.

It was never clear to me, until I started seeing it in meditation, what real refuge meant. Sure I know the stuff we all get taught - prostrate and verbalise about something... "Oh great one save me" etc. But apart from words what is it?

Real refuge is something we all do all the time whether we have faith or belief or not because we go for refuge to the objects of the senses and the discursive mind. We take refuge in objects of addiction, in desire, in anger and in the personalities and boundaries that define our egos, whether we like those things or hate them.

They can help us forget our pain for a short time and get us out of our selves but they ultimately confine and punish us.

When you sit in meditation and begin to release into stillness, this is the actual refuge because you begin to substitute the wordly stuff in this way. You don't need to affirm or deny - just enter the eye of the storm.

Good Luck
Kris

Knitwitch

I can only go with what the others have said - I've been in the situation many times where I am not in a position to wholeheartedly participate in a ceremony (friends' Catholic weddings etc) so I find mentally substituting a form of words that resonates with me works very well - in my example, when I was a committed pagan I just said "Goddess" in my own head every time the priest said "God".

Palzang

Yeah, exactly, Kris. We're always taking refuge in something, whether we realize it or not. It could be sex, drugs and rock and roll, or it could be the Three Jewels. Only the latter, however, will deliver on what we're really looking for, lasting happiness. It's like I said, we're all addicted to samsara, which is the same as saying we're all taking refuge in samsara, all the time, every day. But samsara is a cruel bitch who will never deliver the happiness she promises. Instead she gives us suffering, old age, sickness and death.

Palzang

Iawa

Palzang I hear what you're saying, but at some point can one come to the point where they no longer spin the wheel of samsara? Or is that a dillusional aspiration.

srivijaya

Iawa wrote: »

Palzang I hear what you're saying, but at some point can one come to the point where they no longer spin the wheel of samsara? Or is that a dillusional aspiration.

Hi Iawa,
If it were not possible to stop the wheel of samsara, Buddha would not have taught the dharma. How you do it is another matter and everyone has a different angle on that.

Namaste
Kris

Palzang

What Kris said. And if you get to that point, you'll know it.

Palzang

Jerbear

Iawa,
Yes you can be Buddhist and use the 12 steps. It was because of my involvement in AA for the past 19 years that led me to Buddhism. It is "YOUR CONCEPT" of a higher power. Now, when I have problems with severe pain, I go to my doctor. When I have car problems, I go to a mechanic. All AA offers is to help you get sober and stay that way. Some may tell you that you must believe one way. I was a "born again Christian" when I started and have changed my mind about a number of things. People in the rooms can be you're higher power. They have done something that you have been unable to do so far, attain sobriety/abstinence! I was amazed that people could be happy without the fix of their choice.

Right now, I would suggest going to as many meetings as possible. You can get a better handle on what the program is about. And LISTEN to what the people have to say. You don't have to like it or agree, but think about what they are saying.

Feel free to PM if you like or have any questions that you have.

Knitwitch

I am an alcoholic but managed to get and stay sober without AA. Just my choice, I am not a big team player and there wasn't one within easy distance of me.

I did find however, that swapping one destructive addiction for another, more productive one helped enormously.

In my case it was embroidery, knitting and dressmaking - I am now a stitch addict but it does me no harm .... and with all the time I have where I would have been getting blotto, I have plenty of hours to practice my new skills and produce useful and pretty things instead of hateful and destructive memories.

Just my 2c.

PS - I saw Alice Cooper interviewed on TV the other day - he swapped his booze habit for a golf addiction - see? It works.

Jerbear

G-GOOD
O-ORDERLY
D-DIRECTION

I'm not sure why I hadn't mentioned this yet. Keep this in mind.

zasetsu57

With hands palm to palm...
The rituals we come to associate with AA and NA are no different than the ritual of lighting incence and bowing. They set the pace for movment through this marvelous NOW we are in the midst of. The words and symbols can change..the intent generated never changes. There is no reason for any thought of theism to interrupt your working meditations...Take what works....drop what does not. Wonderful!

LesC

Excellent advice. I know how you feel Iawa, it happens to us all. I was a member of Kiwanis (the charity group) for many years. they begin and end each meeting with a prayer. While the prayers make direct use of the term God, which I clearly had no problem with, my particular club seemed to be made up of born-again Christians, and ended each of the prayers with the add-on "this we ask in Jesus name...".

That I did have a problem with, as I have never considered Jesus to be my personal saviour, even before becoming a Buddhist. Like so many here have suggested I just ignored that part, and if asked to lead the prayer, skipped it and went directly to the Amen, much to everyone's surprise I'm sure. I chose not to mention I was a born-again Buddhist... Born again and again and again and again and again... Hahahahaha!!!

I am also familiar with the 12 Step programs, I've been in a couple. At some point you may find yourself having to recite (perhaps alone) the 12 Steps. It might help you to say that you have "personalized" these so that they have more meaning for you, without going into more detail, and recite them the way you understand them. I sure the group will be understanding and accepting... it is after all the nature of 12 Step groups.

Les

formermonkJohn

I have direct experience with AA, and find it to be a selfish, watered down version of Christianity, with all the focus on worldly things and not spirituality, never once do I hear AAs reccomend helping homeless people, or loving their neighbor, its all me, me, me, If theres any way you can get sober without AA by all means do it, I did. However I realize that some people are so addicted that without the crutch of AA they cannot succeed at sobriety, my best friend goes to meetings and she still drinks, surrounding yourself with other drug addicts and alcoholics is just not conducive to sobriety in my opinion, the best thing you can do is get the hell away from druggies and make new sober friends, and the Buddhist Temple should be a good place to meet them, AA just replaces the addiction for the intoxicant with an addiction for meetings, and I personally get very little positive from their meetings, just my opinion.....

sincerely john

robot

My brother, sister and two nieces go to meetings. All very intelligent people. Far more so than me. I personally gave up drinking 30 yrs ago without AA. It works for them and thats all that matters to me. You woke up a two year old thread for that?

nullcore

robot wrote: »

You woke up a two year old thread for that?

Interesting that this has happened, as I've felt a strong urge to find more meaning in my life lately. This urge has reached an apex of sorts, and I was compelled to look on the Internet for meaning in my life. Granted, this is an extremely lazy approach to finding such meaning, but it's an attempt nonetheless.

I am currently struggling with addiction and have a great deal of experience with 12-step programs. My journey has taken me to 2 rehabilitation facilities in the past year and many, many 12-step meetings. I still haven't kicked my addiction, though I am hopeful that embracing a spiritual approach to life will help.

Until now, I've made it a point to ignore spirituality. I'm a scientist and have lived my life under the principle that scientists should be free of emotion: only pure thought matters.

I've always been jealous of folks who live spiritual lives. I'm not really sure what the point of this post is, other than, I suppose, to serve as my introduction to this community. I hope that my search for spirituality has brought me to the correct place and that my search is ultimately fruitful.