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Question #2, Input welcomed!
Jerbear
Veteran
I thought I would add some color to this message. I'm starting at square one with everything again. I have come across the Four Noble Truths and trying to think about 1. Life is suffering. The word for suffering is "dukkha". If I remember, dukkha can be translated "suffering" but also it is a sense of dissatisfaction with one's existence. It has been one of those experiences that has led me back to the path. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be in extreme suffering to understand it. I would like others input here and how they have experienced it.
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He recognised that parts of it could actually be quite cool, pleasurable and certainly fun at times. Our self-imposed suffering occurs when we cling and grasp, and open up to desire.....If life contains suffering, it's because we put it there.....
It is no secret that I have been through the mill over the last couple of years. BUT my suffering is no greater than someone else's self-imposed suffering who is tearing themself apart because they can't have that nice car, dream partner, etc etc.
Blowing your own foot off is just as painful as getting shot by someone else ... but one is avoidable.
I believe the Buddha said that the main problem confronting us human beings is dukkha. In that respect, to say that life is dukkha is, I think, much closer to his meaning than simply suggesting that there is suffering in life. That would seem to be a statement hardly worth transcribing by so very many over the centuries.
However, perhaps the most beautiful essence of the realization of this great truth (that the human condition is basically one of disaffection with ones lot) is a proper distillation and appropriation of this message. Such a realization would lead a thoughtful, humane soul to identify with the problems confronting his or her fellows rather than just being fixated on his own difficulties. It would make one have a different world view, and give one spiritual insight not to judge the outer shell but to try to see and know the core within.
By identifying the problem that so stifles the ecstasy which is our birthright and knowing it is a universal problem confronting all, we can better understand those troubles that beset or plague others, and thereby instill in ourselves the most beautiful thing there is in all the world: true heartfelt compassion and goodwill for all beings whose paths we cross.
We are dissatisfied with our lot in life because we cannot see the big picture, have selfish aspirations, uncharitable thoughts and speech, dangerous inclinations with their concomitant unskillful habits, callous or indifferent pursuits, lack of initiative to take on useful or just actions, have scattered interests, and, lastly, because we fail to examine ourselves in depth and in the perfect peace and stillness our souls require.
Buddha, I think, calls on us to translate that basic physical dissatisfaction inherent in life to a spiritual thirst only quenched by a bliss not based on things that can be parcelled and sold —but that rises above all this in impartial identification with the very ground of being.
We're all in the same boat, only the baggage is different. The question might well not be to whom does the fancy baggage belong, but how much baggage does it take to drown a man? If it causes pain, let it go! Even if it fascinates you.
To define suffering would be different for everyone I would think. Things that might not bother you would be horrifying to Fede and might only cause me mild discomfort. There are those of us on the board that deal with chronic pain and somedays we suffer and others we don't.
To sum it up, suffering seems to be that feeling of deprivation of ones wants or needs that screams "WHY?!?!" and not seeing it for what it is. I found out where I saw that "Dukkha" could also be translated to dissatisfaction. www.buddhanet.net is a wealth of information. Since I don't know how to make hyperlinks, just cut and paste to your browser.
We seem foiled at every-which-way turn, and we just feel like thumping the wheel, the traffic cop - anything! - just to be able to find the right way for the last goddamn time - !!!
Suffering is relative. I agree.
I think it's fair to say we've all at one time been through the mill.
I would never presume to say "My mill's worse than your mill" because everyone's mill is what that person has to endure.....
The stories of the Buddha's teachings are full of such moments: different for different people.
Although the Noble Truths appear straightforward, expressed in short, snappy sentences, I strongly advise spending a few years reflecting on them. They are not simple nor two-dimensional. Turn them over and over, taste and smell them, they go beyond simple mental tricks or intellectual speculation. You will find them hidden in all spiritual disciplines. They are truths and, as such, universal.
This question of suffering and dissatisfaction can't be examined enough because, as Simon pointed out, there are so many dimensions to it, so many ways to turn it around and look at it from different angles and distances. This is our experience; dissatisfaction (which is suffering, really, isn't it?). This is something we all share. Life in samsara will never be satisfactory because we exist in a deluded state, seeing things that are not there, not seeing the things that are, and when we are faced with the truth we cannot understand it. We are the authors of most of our own suffering yet even if we got out of our own way there would still be other things, like sickness, age and death, that would make us suffer.
Sometimes I think this path is about the slow diminishment of suffering, bit by bit, as we train our minds to become clearer and calmer, to make our behaviours more skillful, to see reality as it is, to accept what we see and what we experience, and to know the difference between what we can change and what we cannot (as the old AA saying goes). Maybe as we develop along this path our suffering becomes less and less until we eventually....well, you know. Nibbana or what have you. I don't look at Nibbana all that much. Just trying to enjoy the ride. Maybe we learn how to avoid self inflicted suffering and then eventually we learn how not to suffer over everything else and along the way we come across other truths that help us as well and so on.
But my point is, maybe it happens bit by bit. You know? Maybe as we walk this path our suffering decreases slowly over time as we develop and practice. Maybe that's why we need perseverance. Maybe we experience little enlightenments every once in a while along the path. Maybe it's a slow, gradual sort of thing. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud.
Anyway, yes, back to suffering. I tend to agree with Simon about the power of the word 'dissatisfaction'. I find it very useful to think of the First Noble Truth being "Life is unsatisfactory". Because it is, and because it implies that there is something better.
So, those are some of my tangled thoughts on this early July morning. Great thread. I hope we keep it going.
If the first truth is that life *is* suffering, or unsatisfactory, and not that 'there is suffering/dissatisfaction', or 'there is suffering/dissatisfaction in life, or 'we are suffering/dissatisfied' then there is no path, no chance of things every being 'not suffering' or satisfactory.
If unsatisfactoriness, suffering, insufficiency is an essential quality of life itself and not just due to us having expectations on how life should be and so cannot see life as it is, if life _itself_ *is* unsatisfactory, then we may as well lay down and give up (or alternatively dedicate our lives to seeking out pleasure) right now because nothing we can do will change that.
There have been multiple paths offered from several different religions including the one in the title of this forum, so it would seem there have been people who have concluded and experienced that suffering/dissatisfaction is not a quality of *life* but of how we experience it.
Another way of looking at it might be that it points to another truth... that maybe *life* can't be separated from our experience of it, and if so 'life is unsatisfactory' might not be a statement about life itself so much as about our experience of life.
This has been a major obstacle for me since I was very young. Not just to a path, but to living. 'Life is not good, we just have to try to survive it.' My approach has been, and still is to want little and be as invisible as possible so as not to attract the attention and wrath of the powers that be (anyone that could potentially have any sort of power over me and thus hurt me, basically, everyone
I can see the errors in my thinking, and I can see that it keeps me trapped inside myself, but I don't have the faith or confidence (in myself? in the possibility that it could be different?) to take those steps. I don't even think I know how.
/end ramble
It isn't.... You're still missing the point.....
Yes, but it doesn't have to be this way.
You're still missing the point.....
So...... what's the point.....?
Nope. Still missing the point.
Nope.... Point, missing, you are.....
You need to take the next step, towards the Point.....
You are taking the First Noble Truth out of Context, and missing the point.
You have to progress to understanding, seeing, accepting and realising the First Noble Truth - in conjunction with The Second, the Third and the Fourth.....Thus to the Eightfold Path. If you stay where you are, you'll be missing the Point: you'll be practising avoidance and remaining stuck.
This is not what the First Noble Truth is for. It's not to keep you stuck, it's to lead you towards liberation.
THAT'S the point.
Someone in my sutra class asked about what it means when the Prajna Paramita sutras talk about how to save sentient beings, a bodhisattva must first realise that there are no sentient beings to be saved (I'm paraphrasing here, but that sort of sentiment is expressed in a lot of different sutras.) I said that I thought it was good news: "If sentient beings really existed, it would be stupid to make a daily vow to save them all. But, since they don't, it's not an impossible task. If either happiness or pain could be made to last forever, then every day would be a huge struggle for me, and a lot of stress. But since I know that both are temporary, I can just relax and enjoy my life."
I decided to pick up the Dhammapada and read a bit and this passage jumped up at me. See how fast things can happen!
3 Those who entertain such thoughts as ‘He abused me, he beat me, he conquered me, he robbed me,’ will not still their hatred.
4 Those who do not entertain such thoughts as ‘He abused me, he beat be, he conquered me, he robbed me,” will still their hatred.
5 Not by hatred are hatreds ever pacified here (in the world). They are pacified by love. This is the eternal law.
6 Others do not realize that we are all heading for death. Those who do realize it will compose their quarrels. (Dhammapada 3-6)
I have been feeling intense anger since losing a job in May. Though the reasons may or may not be true, I still need to still my own hatred. I like how these two pairs go together. First, quit blaming others as it will not help and the second pair states the solution is love. We are all human ("heading for death") and we need to practice loving-kindness to each other.
As any truth worth its salt, they have multiple layers of meaning and application. I think of bible verses that I used to think profound, and they will pop out at times. Being a source of truth, they still apply to the human condition.
"But my point is, maybe it happens bit by bit. You know? Maybe as we walk this path our suffering decreases slowly over time as we develop and practice. Maybe that's why we need perseverance. Maybe we experience little enlightenments every once in a while along the path. Maybe it's a slow, gradual sort of thing. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. "
I sure hope so! If living is a process not a destination, we need multiple experiences or "opportunities" to learn and progress. This is a great little gem of wisdom here. Not bad for 7 am in the morning.
When I describe metta meditation to people, I sometimes get questions about whether it really works. Does the person chosen as the meditation object really become more well and happy?
I say that I don't know at all. But that whether it affects the outside world or not, I know it makes positive changes for my own thoughts. The more often I do a thing, the better I tend to get at doing it. And if I leave my thoughts on their own, I tend to revisit past hurts and regrets. When I consider things that made me angry in the past, the same anger rises up in me again. So it becomes that much easier to become angry or upset the next time I'm in a difficult situation. I'm really good at it by now.
I'd like to become more patient and compassionate, but I don't think it will happen for me unless I practise. I think that metta meditation is a good way to practise, and maybe will help reprogram some of my habitual responses.