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What is considered "sexual misconduct" in Theravada?
Jason
God EmperorArrakis Moderator
To begin with, we should make it clear that Buddhist precepts are not equivalent to commandments in that precepts are training rules that are voluntar... Continue reading
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I elaborate and explain that this precept refers to Sexual Misconduct, but makes no distinction as to the person's sexual persuasions or preferences. However, there are certain traditions that have elaborated upon certain matters (as Jason mentions with regard to different orifices) but that as far as I am aware, this is a condition imposed by the strictures of the pertinent Tradition, and does not come directly from the Buddha himself.
Ridiculously, I had not immediately considered taking the Five Precepts as correlative. But of course, it makes sense. As with the Eightfold path actually being one great big reminder about Mindfulness, so it follows that the Five Precepts are a composite 'think about what you're doing!'
Good article.
In trying to practice Buddhism, I try not to hurt my fellow person/sentient being. I tried to do that before, but had no real impetus to do so except I felt it right not to hurt others. If my conduct is going to hurt me or my partner, then it is not mindful.
This does bring up another question though. Many parents, siblings, and friends are hurt when a gay person "comes out" and act like the gay person is at fault and not trying hard enough to "be straight and right with God". Could this kind of hurt be a reason to abstain until one comes to terms with what being gay means to them? What's everyone's thoughts on this?
That's social conditioning and fear of what the neighbours may think. In my opinion you don't have to try (or not) to be straight, gay or bi - you just are. People don't choose their sexuality it's hardwired into the rebirth process. I'm 100% straight but have had past life recall (and some very lucid dreams) as a straight woman, so figure that one out. I personally believe that our sexuality is quite shallow, on a gross level of our being and does not go as deep as we imagine it does. We become so very identified with it, that it's hard to imagine that it can be so easily discarded.
In any case the male and female (yin yang) potential is in all beings.
As far as the rebirth side goes, it's one aspect of Buddhism where I still adhere to my Tibetan training. The reason being, that my own experience accords with those teachings.
Essentially we have desire, aversion and ignorance as prerequisite factors, the detail of which changes with each life. Being gay is the same as being straight in this respect. The three factors are present, the overall situation is the same.
The whole "try to be straight" thing makes no sense at all, it's as pointless as telling a straight person to try to be gay.
Whilst a gay person has hurdles to cross that a straight person doesn't, one thing is the same for all young people. When it comes to 'when, where and with who', then it should be a free decision made under no duress. It may have as much to do with not being 'peer-pressured' into it, as it does with coming to terms with our desires. It's a minefield of emotions in any case.
As far as what constitutes misconduct. For monks and nuns, there are rules and for lay people who wish to follow precepts there are also some rules. Beyond that, I think that consent between two adults is the main thing.
I asked that specifically for your answer. When I was a teenager and easily manipulated, I would have said that would be a good reason to abstain. In 40's now, in hindsight I thought more about what people thought of me than what I thought of it. It took until I was 35 years old to accept things as they are. It's harder to do when others are putting the roof over your head or part of your social structure and all you know.
Parents, siblings, friends and others can influence a younger person easier than a mature person. If someone tried to convince me that I was wrong now, I would look and smile and say "You are free to your opinion and I am free to disagree with you". Sometimes those loved ones can do and say things with good intentions but really out of selfish motives. My parents never accepted my sexual orientation and I had to learn to live without their approval. My church kicked me out, my friends disowned me. And I made it through that time stronger for having stood up for myself. Sometimes for the gay (and for that matter the straight) person, the misconduct can be towards one self trying not to hurt others. Denying one's feelings to make others feel better is a type of masochism that the Buddha would not approve of I'm sure. I became healthier and happier caring for me first and then others. Just some thoughts.
Hi Jerbear,
You've certainly been at the receiving end of a lot of prejudice. I think much of the problem stems from how Christianity approaches the issue of sex. It informs and reinforces wider animosity towards gays. It can do this, as it considers mankind to be sinners. It can do this, as it has a god who can be offended by our deeds.
Still, some Western Buddhists mistakenly substitute the concept of sin with karma and believe that their deeds may offend some manifestation of Buddha.
All rubbish essentially.
I'm glad you have finally been able to be yourself. Good for you.
Namaste
Kris
For a time, I worked as a volunteer and trainee at the Centre du Christ Liberateur in Paris. This was a house run by a Protestant Christian pastor. We ran a drop-in counselling service and held a weekly meal, offering affirmative support for anyone, self-referring, who was "marginalised because of their gender or sexuality". Pasteur Douce, a "professional" Christian, trained and ordained, was constantly under pressure from both the churches and the state. His murder has never, to my knowledge, been solved. I witnessed, day after day, the healing power of unconditional acceptance. And, day after day, I heard our visitors express their deep anger at the 'Christianity' or 'Judaism' that parents/teachers/etc had used as an excuse to persecute them.
Back in London, I worked with Father Bill Kirkpatrick and Streetwise, a drop-in place for young men in the sex industry in London. So many of these young runaways had come from 'good Christian' homes. Some, however, cxame from secular homes, places with no religion other than 'reason'. Reason?!? I met parents who argued, from their 'scientific' logic, that a sexuality or gender awareness different from their own was "unnatural" or "wicked" or whatever nonsense that justified them to themselves.
Many of us were deeply disturbed by the Dalai Lama's early statements about homosexuality. Our belief in his wisdom was restored when he showed his readiness to confront his prejudice.
I would also point out that the 'gay community' can be discriminatory too. The London Lesbian and Gay Centre (LLGC) voted to exclude bisexuals!
The real problem does not lie 'upstream', with belief/faith systems, but with the mind which will twist such systems to serve its own prejudices. So, if this is the case, let our prejudices be positive, non-judgmental and compassionate - pejudice for rather than against.
The truth is someone can come up with any "reason" they like for prejudice. My father was an avowed atheist. He wasn't supportive of me or my relationships in the past. He just thought it was wrong and went with the status quo. That is the same as "natural" to others. We hear so much of what the church has against this, that and the other thing more often. Part of it is that it tries to set itself up as a moral authority and can make these pronouncements. Too few are doing what you had done and meeting people where they were at.
I must admit that I have had trouble accepting transgendered individuals. The best I can come up with is that I don't understand and try to treat transgendered people with the dignity and respect that I want. I don't have to understand eveything about a person to be kind to them. Actually, some of the funniest people I've met have been transgendered. There take on the world is so different from anything I've experienced that I find there blunt honesty refreshing.
Lots of ink gets spilled on Buddhist boards on this topic, as in one corner we have 'ideal pure practice' (horaaay) and in the other 'grubby reality' (Boooo). So the two combatants square up and slug it out but the bad guy keeps on winning. It seems the harder the good guy tries, the more soundly he gets defeated.
Or is that just me?
What do you guys think?
I don't think it has much to do with 'religion'. As I said, humanists can be just as prejudiced and, as Jerry has been brave enough to admit, there are some groups (transgendered for example) who remain targets for discrimination.
I seem to recall, from a 'gay novel' of the '80s, a diatribe along the lines of:
"The Sermon on the Mount blesses the poor, the mourners, the meek. Other groups such as prisoners and the naked get blessings but there is one group that is always ignored and reviled: gay men with small dicks!"
That is the funniest thing I've read in a while. Will share with Michael when he gets home. The problem is determining what "small" is. And for most guys it means smaller than them.
If a man just folds his fingers down, in a relaxed way (not a clenched fist) then wherever his middle finger tip extends to, that's how long his erect penis is.
Curiously, this was a measurement Da Vinci did not include in his 'Vitruvian Man' illustration, detailing the body's anatomical proportions. However, a close look at the illustration, might indicate that such an alleged proportion may not be inaccurate..... :eek:
(This is very off-topic. I apologise. But it was posted as educational.....
Eh?
Ok, step-by-step...
Fold your fingers down.
See where the middle fingertip, touches the pad of your thumb (on the palm....)
(mentally mark that spot.....)
Re-extend your fingers.
point on thumb pad - to middle finger-tip (extended....)
I did.....
.....I left out a whole line, dinn' I....? :-/ :wtf:
This is all 'allegedly'.
I have noooo idea whether this is representative, or even true.
Who knows. My relaxed finger rests about half way down my forearm, so hey it could be
Does the measurement also apply in some way to females? :rolleyes:
We got us a quality thread going here Freddie.
There is an equivalent in women.
Cross your arms.
Measure the distance from the exposed fingertips, to the first crease of the hidden hand's wrist.
This is just about as far as you can push a woman's patience before she whangs you round the head with the rolling pin, her 'hidden hand' is holding.