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Question #3 In vs Out
Jerbear
Veteran
Hi gang,
Not had any questions come up as of recent as I had to figure out what I was asking first. Many people talk about taking the precepts, getting baptized, doing RCIA or the like of religions and it can almost be a pseudo high. As some of you may remember, I was part of a Zen sangha that required you do 3,000 bows before you could take the precepts officially. Some things I could not agree with at the sangha and I decided to move along. But something sticks in me and would like others experience/input on this.
I think it is more important that you are on target inside about doing something that actually doing it. The 3,000 bows I did became a test and actually hurt physically by the end. I completed it and felt not one bit different than before. I wanted people who hadn't done them to feel just as welcome at the sangha as I did. Almost like it was an initiation I guess. Since I felt the need to feel accepted, I did as the teacher told me to. Then I realized this was a way to set one up and started asking questions that I felt were pertinent. My desire is to follow the Path and do so with as pure of motive as possible. I realize that isn't going to happen 100%, but to try is the point.
Now, can you preform rituals/deeds and do them with less enthusiasm as other times and still consider yourself seeking or practicing the precepts? I want the inside to match the outside but sometimes that just doesn't happen. What do you do at the times where you truly don't feel like it or not getting the point in your opinion? Is faking it til you make it still just faking? What do you think?
Not had any questions come up as of recent as I had to figure out what I was asking first. Many people talk about taking the precepts, getting baptized, doing RCIA or the like of religions and it can almost be a pseudo high. As some of you may remember, I was part of a Zen sangha that required you do 3,000 bows before you could take the precepts officially. Some things I could not agree with at the sangha and I decided to move along. But something sticks in me and would like others experience/input on this.
I think it is more important that you are on target inside about doing something that actually doing it. The 3,000 bows I did became a test and actually hurt physically by the end. I completed it and felt not one bit different than before. I wanted people who hadn't done them to feel just as welcome at the sangha as I did. Almost like it was an initiation I guess. Since I felt the need to feel accepted, I did as the teacher told me to. Then I realized this was a way to set one up and started asking questions that I felt were pertinent. My desire is to follow the Path and do so with as pure of motive as possible. I realize that isn't going to happen 100%, but to try is the point.
Now, can you preform rituals/deeds and do them with less enthusiasm as other times and still consider yourself seeking or practicing the precepts? I want the inside to match the outside but sometimes that just doesn't happen. What do you do at the times where you truly don't feel like it or not getting the point in your opinion? Is faking it til you make it still just faking? What do you think?
0
Comments
As you probably know, Vajrayana has what is called ngondro - preliminary practices - that encompass 100,000 repetitions of four (or five) practices. The first one you encounter is 100,000 prostrations. That's usually a major stumbling block for most people. It certainly has been for me! I really tried hard at first but never seemed to make any progress. I actually gave up at one point as it seemed like all I was doing was accumulating numbers with no real effect. However, as time passes and wisdom (hopefully) increases, it has become apparent to me that these practices actually do work. Prostrations actually do purify negative body karma. Mandala accumulation actually does accumulate merit. Vajrasattva practice actually does purify one's karma. Guru yoga actually does develop devotion. It takes a long time to actually see a result, at least for me, but it does happen. I remember that when I finished the Vajrasattva accumulation I could actually feel a big difference. But it's a slow process. These aren't just arbitrary practices someone thought up to torture us (though initially they can seem so)!
So I would say that when confronted with an issue like you were with the 3000 prostrations, the best thing is just to do it with an open mind, not expecting anything, and not resenting it. Just do it. You may be surprised at what comes out of it.
Palzang
I did complete them and did feel some difference. My question is can one do outward signs of devotion/practice without feeling it on the inside? You know when meditation becomes work, chanting sounds monotonous to you and you wonder why you're doing it. Sort of like going through the motions. The question is more about how the practitioner feels towards whatever they are doing. You might have answered that and I may need to read your answer a few times before I catch on. This may be the "faith" of Buddhism. Doing the practices based on what others have said about them. Look for a PM later if you don't mind.
I was thinking about this without trying and was trying to figure out why did I care about the question at all. In looking at the part that faith has played in my life previously, it has always had to be demonstrated for others to see. Furthermore, my fellow Fundies would judge me based on what they saw and deem it appropriate or not. This is part of "church" that has nothing to do with one's own peity but crowd pleasing. When I started feeling that again last year, I had to split from what was happening.
Faith seems to me should be a quality that one has toward their practice, not how cross legged you sit, how long you chant or meditate, or what color mala beads you have. For me to come to this on my own has not been easy. I'm not saying one should not try, but one shouldn't worry about what others think. Taking refuge in the Sangha is a struggle for me. Actually, you guys are it for now until I develop some more of this quality so I can honestly say I don't mind what others think of me. It seems that I am going to have to learn how to let my practice be satisfying to me. Any former fundies will know the sense of fear I'm feeling with this. Just need to take this one day at a time.
Hi Jerbear,
I know what you mean with the faith and devotional 'thing'. How about in the mean time just meditating? No strings attached, no preliminaries, no prerequisites or "must-do"s - a simple breathing meditation (when you have a few spare minutes) for example.
Just relax, watch the breath and note what happens.
It helped me.
Jerry, dear heart,
"Say not the struggle naught availeth."
The sad fact is that those of us who care about the opinion of others have a life-long struggle. In my garden, I am plagued with bindweed. There is no way to get rid of it completely but I can 'teach it some manners' by constant vigilance. I remove it as soon as I see it. Sometimes I focus on it and get yet more out. And, next year, I shall find it again. What I call my 'vanity' (my care for the opinion of others) is the bindweed of my life and it needs constant alertness, constant attention.
It's much better, as my teacher says, to be a slow burner, someone who just keeps on keeping on even when things get tough or when your practice seems dead. I was surprised to hear that Mother Teresa, in her biography, says that for most of her life after she began tending to the poor in Calcutta she really felt Jesus was gone from her life and that her practice was arid and devoid of meaning. In 1979 she wrote to a confidante that Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear. But yet she accomplished tremendous good in the world despite this personal "darkness of the soul" and even now is on the path to sainthood in the Catholic church (and deservedly so). In fact, it was that great Christian mystic, St. John of the Cross, who coined the term "the dark night of the soul" during his own fallow periods. Actually I think that such periods are extremely healthy and a sign that one is practicing well because practice is about change, about giving up old illusions and growing into a better appreciation of reality just as it is. So I see your questioning and reluctance to get into this type of shallow practice attitude as very healthy, Jerry. It is basically the same attitude I finally adopted with ngondro. Even though I didn't actually see how doing all these practices could have any effect whatsoever, and even though I couldn't logically see how they could possibly work, I decided to do them anyway because I could see that they had worked for my teachers who had very obviously attained that which I most desire. And it has proven to be so.
Palzang