Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Do monks and nuns matter?
Simonthepilgrim
Veteran
Just a few thoughts on the monastic life from the pov of a ‘householder’, lay person and arising from a comment that our dear Knitwitch posted elsewhere: “why don't you take a menial job …………… rather than expecting complete strangers to stump up for it?”
Before anything else, I want to stress that this is NOT about the original request but a reflection on the monastic and mendicant vocation in general.
This remark caused me to reflect on the long history of mendicant and conventual monastics (that is those who wander about begging and those who stay in monasteries and convents) in both the Christian and Buddhist traditions. Few aspects of life in India struck me as forcible reminders that I was in a far older and more traditional society than in the UK than the sight of ‘householders’ (the laity) giving alms, both solicited and unsolicited, to monks and nuns. This is so different from the collection in church or the standing order to a charity - and it is a tradition that the combination of the Reformation and the Industrial Revolution have almost completely wiped from our own culture. On the Subcontinent and elsewhere in the East, even perhaps in China, the wandering monk or nun or scholar or holy person goes about ‘expecting complete strangers to stump up’.
So why an attitude of disapproval when we profess to love stories of mendicants like Saint Francis (voted top saint in all polls) or the Buddha and his followers?
From this, I began to wonder and repeat the question I have been asked so often: what are monastics for? What purpose do they serve in the modern world? Aren’t they just running away from the world’s day-to-day problems and aren’t they simply parasites? And, from some points of view, I think that this can be argued quite cogently. Any ‘corporal works of mercy’ that they perform (running schools and hospitals, soup kitchen, etc.) are as much the business of lay, secular organisations - if not more so. ( * ) Monastic life, whether shut up or wandering, is alleged to bring something more to the mix so what is it?
These are some thoughts which are certainly not necessarily in order of importance.
STUDY:
The first thing that happened, so the story goes, after the death and perinibbana of the Buddha was a meeting of the sangha to settle the precise words that would be remembered, recited and taught. From that moment on, one of the tasks of the sangha became the preservation, intact, of the teaching. As a result of constant repetition, these men and women have, over 2500 years, become skilled in understanding more and more about the complexities and beauties of the Dharma. And the sangha that the Buddha gathered around him was compoised of monks and nuns supported by the communities through which they travelled.
To put it in secular terms, it is like the development of today’s musical instruments from the earliest ones. Had there been no musicians and composers pushing at the frontiers of the musically possible, we would not have the piano, the violin or the guitar among so many others. And many of those inventive musicians did their work under generous patronage because it really isn’t possible to write great music and be a postman or factory worker save in the rarest of cases.
And our universities? Where would they be without funding and where would we be without their research, ‘standing on the shoulders of giants’?
So the community that wants to have the Dharma preserved and studied needs to provide the means to do so.
**********************
CONNECTEDNESS
This is a more tenuous matter but modern physics seems to be catching up with mystics who have glimpsed the interconnectedness of all that is. The interdependency and co-arising of all beings is central to Buddhist thought and to some aspects of those other traditions that also contain forms of monasticism (Christianity, Islam, Shamanism and Hinduism for example). When John Donne writes that “Every man’s death diminishes me”, he implies far more than just the impact of death. Each one of our actions and inactions affects the whole structure, to a greater or lesser extent.
We acknowledge that here when we offer each other prayers or distant healing. We accept it when we accept such support.
Need I say more about this? In our monastic communities, prayers are constantly being offered, specifically for those who ask, and for the world and its needs.
Is that worth supporting? And, if so, how to we ensure its continuity into new generations.
*************************
PARODY
This is a favourite of mine, the true reason that I endorse and support the monastic tradition and work to see it continue and flourish.
Monks and nuns are the extremists of the precepts and by denying themselves much that the laity deem makes life worthwhile they parody those values: the values of possession and ownership are challenged by refusal to own; the values of intimate, mono-gamous/androus relationships are challenged by a vow of chastity. Some monastics never leave their conventual’s home again, thereby challenging the “free movement of peoples” as being of value. The promise of obedience to a superior laughs at the belief in ‘personal liberty’.
For myself, I want a society which can contain such maniacs.
Finally, I would note that many of the great religious teachers left their jobs and set off to spread their message relying on the kindness of strangers. Jesus and Gotama were only two and they called their followers away from family and job. George Fox, who founded the Religious Society of Friends, gave up his trade as a cobbler because he deemed his preaching more important. He was variously housed and fed by supporters and, often, by the state when imprisoned.
So, what do you think? Are we in favour of some people devoting their lives and energies to mediation and study, supported by the rest of us, or should they (as in the Dissolution of the Monasteries by Henry VIII and Mao Tsetung) be made to get “proper jobs”?
( * )At this point, my reflections were distracted by Article 13 of the Anglican Articles of Religion treating “Good works before justification” and the Protestant work obsession! I did wonder if doing good thingd for the wrong reasons was an area to investigate.
Before anything else, I want to stress that this is NOT about the original request but a reflection on the monastic and mendicant vocation in general.
This remark caused me to reflect on the long history of mendicant and conventual monastics (that is those who wander about begging and those who stay in monasteries and convents) in both the Christian and Buddhist traditions. Few aspects of life in India struck me as forcible reminders that I was in a far older and more traditional society than in the UK than the sight of ‘householders’ (the laity) giving alms, both solicited and unsolicited, to monks and nuns. This is so different from the collection in church or the standing order to a charity - and it is a tradition that the combination of the Reformation and the Industrial Revolution have almost completely wiped from our own culture. On the Subcontinent and elsewhere in the East, even perhaps in China, the wandering monk or nun or scholar or holy person goes about ‘expecting complete strangers to stump up’.
So why an attitude of disapproval when we profess to love stories of mendicants like Saint Francis (voted top saint in all polls) or the Buddha and his followers?
From this, I began to wonder and repeat the question I have been asked so often: what are monastics for? What purpose do they serve in the modern world? Aren’t they just running away from the world’s day-to-day problems and aren’t they simply parasites? And, from some points of view, I think that this can be argued quite cogently. Any ‘corporal works of mercy’ that they perform (running schools and hospitals, soup kitchen, etc.) are as much the business of lay, secular organisations - if not more so. ( * ) Monastic life, whether shut up or wandering, is alleged to bring something more to the mix so what is it?
These are some thoughts which are certainly not necessarily in order of importance.
STUDY:
The first thing that happened, so the story goes, after the death and perinibbana of the Buddha was a meeting of the sangha to settle the precise words that would be remembered, recited and taught. From that moment on, one of the tasks of the sangha became the preservation, intact, of the teaching. As a result of constant repetition, these men and women have, over 2500 years, become skilled in understanding more and more about the complexities and beauties of the Dharma. And the sangha that the Buddha gathered around him was compoised of monks and nuns supported by the communities through which they travelled.
To put it in secular terms, it is like the development of today’s musical instruments from the earliest ones. Had there been no musicians and composers pushing at the frontiers of the musically possible, we would not have the piano, the violin or the guitar among so many others. And many of those inventive musicians did their work under generous patronage because it really isn’t possible to write great music and be a postman or factory worker save in the rarest of cases.
And our universities? Where would they be without funding and where would we be without their research, ‘standing on the shoulders of giants’?
So the community that wants to have the Dharma preserved and studied needs to provide the means to do so.
**********************
CONNECTEDNESS
This is a more tenuous matter but modern physics seems to be catching up with mystics who have glimpsed the interconnectedness of all that is. The interdependency and co-arising of all beings is central to Buddhist thought and to some aspects of those other traditions that also contain forms of monasticism (Christianity, Islam, Shamanism and Hinduism for example). When John Donne writes that “Every man’s death diminishes me”, he implies far more than just the impact of death. Each one of our actions and inactions affects the whole structure, to a greater or lesser extent.
We acknowledge that here when we offer each other prayers or distant healing. We accept it when we accept such support.
Need I say more about this? In our monastic communities, prayers are constantly being offered, specifically for those who ask, and for the world and its needs.
Is that worth supporting? And, if so, how to we ensure its continuity into new generations.
*************************
PARODY
This is a favourite of mine, the true reason that I endorse and support the monastic tradition and work to see it continue and flourish.
Monks and nuns are the extremists of the precepts and by denying themselves much that the laity deem makes life worthwhile they parody those values: the values of possession and ownership are challenged by refusal to own; the values of intimate, mono-gamous/androus relationships are challenged by a vow of chastity. Some monastics never leave their conventual’s home again, thereby challenging the “free movement of peoples” as being of value. The promise of obedience to a superior laughs at the belief in ‘personal liberty’.
For myself, I want a society which can contain such maniacs.
Finally, I would note that many of the great religious teachers left their jobs and set off to spread their message relying on the kindness of strangers. Jesus and Gotama were only two and they called their followers away from family and job. George Fox, who founded the Religious Society of Friends, gave up his trade as a cobbler because he deemed his preaching more important. He was variously housed and fed by supporters and, often, by the state when imprisoned.
So, what do you think? Are we in favour of some people devoting their lives and energies to mediation and study, supported by the rest of us, or should they (as in the Dissolution of the Monasteries by Henry VIII and Mao Tsetung) be made to get “proper jobs”?
( * )At this point, my reflections were distracted by Article 13 of the Anglican Articles of Religion treating “Good works before justification” and the Protestant work obsession! I did wonder if doing good thingd for the wrong reasons was an area to investigate.
0
Comments
Gladys Aylwood (real life person, Film - Inn of the Seventh Happiness) was rejected by the authorities who organised missioniaries to China. She was so convinced of her vocation to go to China that she worked scrubbing floors and saving a portion of her wages each week to ensure that she could pay for her trip herself. She subsequently proved herself more than worthy of her calling.
My remark was only to suggest to Two Hands that a year or two of scrubbing toilets in her home town and saving for her final switch to Plum Village might be more worthwhile than getting it paid for by strangers and instantly realising her ambition. What we work for, we value, as my Old Ma used to say.
Nothing against the monastic life, just the way of getting into it.
In favour 100%
I am also ordained. I am a High Priestess of Isis of Ten Thousand Names and have made life-time vows but live in the "ordinary" world.
This means that
a I am available at all times to anyone from the Pagan community who needs my services for ritual and can pay my expenses
b I am available to anyone who comes to me for healing or teaching
c I am committed to opposing anything that will put sacred spaces in danger - the definition of sacred spaces being somewhat elastic.
I also have to go to work, pay my bills, see to my family and generally live like the rest of the community.
So yes, sometimes it has crossed my mind that it would be very nice to opt out - in my case to become an anchorite, living in the wilds, devoting my life to the service of the Goddess but making it bloody difficult for anyone to find me. Anyone who did would deserve my total attention. But when I am trying to participate in distance healing when I am completely shattered from my work .... you will understand.
I have absolutely nothing against religious communities that can support themselves in whatever way is viable. What I do find repulsive is religious communities that take offerings from very poor people in order to build gilded edifices and I make no distinction between which particular religion - many seem to do it.
In the days before most people could read and sacred texts were available only to the few and teachings had to be guarded .. maybe. But in this day and age, perhaps more monastics should be doing as Pally and I do - devoting their lives to a purpose but not retreating from the world.
Only my take.
Concerning monasticism, I have always seen monks and nuns as teachers who teach not only from written texts or oral transmission, but also through practice and example. What better way to achieve a deep understanding of the teachings than to immerse yourself in them? What better way to hone your practice than to devote every moment to it, without distractions? Once you have strengthened your own practice, you will be better able to serve others. Personally, I know that I will be better able to help myself, and, in turn, my family and society by becoming a monastic. At present, I am far too distracted, pulled in too many different directions, to be of much help to my loved ones, and sometimes I do more harm than good. My well-being is not separate from that of others, and the other way around. The best way to take care of others is to take care of yourself.
I know that once at Plum Village, I will be able to better care for myself through my own practice and the supporting practice of my brothers and sisters. I will be better able to care for my family, as they -- especially my mother -- will not worry because they will know I am happy, and as I will have a clearer and calmer mind able to offer whatever insight I can (as it is, whenever my mother or brother comes to me for input, I am too entangled in my own worries to help them, and sometimes end up making matters worse).
I know that I will be better able to serve my teacher and my sangha, to whom I owe so much. I will be tending the beautiful plum trees whose fruit is sold to support the community. I will be working in an office to keep the community functioning smoothly. I will be assisting visitors during their stay.
I know that I will be better able to serve my fellow human beings through being in touch with and caring for those who are suffering, whether they are in Thay's native Vietnam or in prison or any other place where people are in need, whether they are suffering from poverty or war or any number of calamities.
Monasticism does involve living separate from the worldly world, as it were. But no one can retreat from the wider world, from reality. Mindfulness requires that one be in touch with everything, from the joyful poem in the book in front of you to the AIDS orphan suffering from hunger and sickness in Africa. Monks and nuns devote themselves not just to their own well-being, not just to their family and friends, not just to their country, but to all sentient beings everywhere. And as numerous as they are, they take a lot of time to care for.
There are several traditional views on monasticism as it pertains to Buddhism that should also be considered. First of all is the concept of merit. Merit is generated by doing virtuous deeds. It is considered meritorious because it goes against the grain of our normal way of thinking which is entirely self-directed and ego-clinging. Even the apparently selfless act of a mother for a child, for example, has at its root ego-clinging as the mother sees the child as an extension of herself, so whatever benefits the child also benefits the mother. So meritorious action is something that goes against our usual manner of behavior and helps us move past ego-clinging to awakening, which by definition results in liberation from suffering. So engaging in meritorious activity, one might say, is the fuel that keeps our engine going on our road to enlightenment.
There are many ways to earn merit. One is by selflessly giving of oneself to benefit others with no "hooks" involved. For example, if one gives to charity and then goes around bragging about how generous one is, that is not "selfless" but ego-clinging. If, on the other hand, one gives to charity out of true concern for the benefit of others unable to help themselves, perhaps even anonymously, then that would be a selfless act. Another way is to sponsor the building of a stupa or a temple or the operation of a temple. Offering food to the Buddha, even though the Buddha is not physically there to eat it, is also meritorious as the intention is to provide sustenance to the Buddha whose teachings make enlightenment possible for us ordinary sentient beings.
Now, supporting a monk or nun is also considered extremely virtuous as these are people who have vowed to develop a lifestyle that is selfless and very meritorious. By supporting them, we share in their merit. The monk or nun gains merit by dedicating his or her life to the benefit of other sentient beings, and the rules of the Vinaya (monastic rules) support this type of lifestyle.
So the bottom line is if you are serious about gaining liberation from suffering, then you would learn to generate as much merit as possible, and supporting the ordained sangha is an excellent way to do that.
As for the ordained sangha, they are there to support the lay sangha, as well as all sentient beings, in their efforts to achieve liberation. They do this through developing their own qualities through their practice, by accomplishing practices requested of them by the lay sangha, and by being the caretakers of the precious Dharma, the teachings of the Buddha without which enlightenment would not be so accessible.
As part of this concern for sentient beings, the monk or nun would never expect to be supported. Their vow is to liberate sentient beings by whatever means necessary, and if that means supporting themselves by working at a regular job so that they can continue to be of benefit to others, then they will gladly do so. If they go out to beg in the streets, it is not so much so that they can get food in their bellies (though that is a necessary thing to do), but also so that those who offer them sustenance will gain merit. Everything they do is done from this dual perspective of sustaining their own life so that they can continue to be of benefit to others while at the same time using their status as one who wears the robes of the Buddha to provide opportunities to others to accrue merit.
Unfortunately, most of us who have been brought up in Western societies have been fed with our mother's milk the notion that the only value in life is accruing wealth and power, i.e., to enlarge ego's territory, not renounce it. So we as a society no longer value selfless sacrifice for our benefit. We see such sacrifice as parasitism, that the person who does these things is not a contributor to society (i.e., not a wage-earner). The result is that we have long ago discarded any societal means of supporting such people and see no value in it.
To me, that is most unfortunate. We have thrown out the baby with the bathwater and are not aware of the value of what we have discarded. The only way we have to correct this is to find ways to support and encourage the monastic lifestyle. If we don't, it will be lost, and the world will be a much darker place.
That's the way I see it.
Palzang
Personally, I have reflected on all the difficulties I have endured throughout my life and asked myself if I wished that they had not happened, that I had not needed to suffer so. But the answer was an unequivocal and resounding "No!" I would never undo anything in my life because all of it, pleasant and unpleasant, led to this point of realization and opportunity, and I am so grateful for the quality of my life at this time. I don't know if it's just luck or if there is some other guiding force, but I know that my suffering was not in vain.
I also make a clear distinction between the monastic and the priesthood, about which I am far more skeptical.
Does that make you both a Wiccan and a Quaker Knitwitch? I find that very interesting and quite unique.
Well, I'm glad we can see all your colors now. I thought the Skull and Crossbones was it...
You're right, 2 hands, it does take a lot of merit to become a monk or nun. However, it should also be remembered that it takes a huge amount of merit just to be born human. Look at how many beings there are in just this tiny world, and then think how many humans there are in comparison. And to have a precious human rebirth, i.e. one in which one has the opportunity to hear the Dharma, the leisure to practice it, and the faculties needed to make the most of it, you need vast quantities of merit. So to become a monk or nun is more a matter of karma than merit (though that is needed as well). Kalu Rinpoche, a great meditation master of the 20th Century, said that in order to become ordained in these dark times one must have been ordained in a previous life. Who knows?
There is a story from the time of the Buddha. One time one of the Buddha's principal students, Maudgalyayana, approached the Buddha and told him an old man had come to the community requesting ordination as a monk. Maudgalyayana was a very accomplished Bodhisattva and had the power of clairvoyance. When he examined the man's past lives for any shred of evidence that he had the merit to become a monk, he could find none. But the man's sincerity had moved him to approach the Buddha to ask him about the situation. The Buddha then also examined the man's past lives. He then looked at Maudgalyayana and said, "Your clairvoyance is good, but not perfect and complete like a fully enlightened Buddha."
The Buddha then related what he had discovered about the old man. Once, eons ago, the man had been a pig. One day, while happily wallowing in his mud puddle, the pig had been set upon by a pack of wild dogs. In utter terror, the pig ran as fast as it could to try to get away from the dogs. Finally the dogs cornered him in front of a vast stupa that had been erected to honor a Buddha of the past (yes, Buddha Shakyamuni was not the first Buddha). The pig whirled around to defend itself against the dogs, and while doing so, his tail, still covered in mud, wagged against the stupa, which had a crack in it. The mud on the pig's tail actually repaired the crack in the stupa. Thus unknowingly the pig had accrued great merit and created the karmic seed that now connected him with the Buddha. So the old man became a monk and applied himself to his meditation so well that, despite his advanced years, he attained a level of realization that freed him from the wheel of samsara.
So yes, it does take merit to connect with the Dharma and to become ordained. And the other point of the story is that if you really want to make a connection, seek out a stupa and use it!
Palzang
Stories help us to produce a grateful mind and a grateful mind empowers a benevolent mind. This is one reason why the stories are so important, even when science has reduced them to formulae and theories.
Stories! Stories Simon?
How could you?
mmm... the way I see it is that if I now start flinging some mud on this site and some of it hits Palzang in the chops, I'm sorted in a few trillion lifetimes at least. ;-)
What does interest me though is to what extent ordination is perceived to be a prerequisite for success on the Buddhist path.
TwoHands wrote Whilst the sentiment is logical I would first query exactly what the practice will be and what amount of immersion is necessary. There are individuals who honestly maintain that success in Jhana is only possible as an ordained person, as moral discipline is otherwise lacking.
This is incorrect, as the only prerequisites are decent instructions and a bit of time and effort to realise it.
That said, I have met a handful of awesome Sangha in my time who have been an inspiration. I miss them now to be honest. Certainly go for it if you feel the calling (I never did) but don't let your current situation put you off meditating and gaining insight right now. It will be a useful foundation for when you finally get ordained.
Good luck with it.
Kris
Yes, I realized after I made that post that it wasn't quite what I meant to say, just the closest approximation I could manage. I suppose I meant that the best way that I could perceive for myself was immersion in the practice in a monastic setting, but that's certainly not the best way for everyone -- why else would the sangha be fourfold, including monks and nuns and laymen and laywomen? It is entirely possible, and sometimes more skillful, to immerse oneself in the practice as a layperson, and I'm sure that there are laypeople who have achieved a deeper understanding of that dharma than their ordained counterparts. It's just a matter of choosing which one of the 84,000 dharma doors suits you best. As for me, I'm not a nun yet, so it makes more sense to practice as a layperson for now, as that is the current reality.
Just curious, as I don't think you've mentioned it (or perhaps I've missed it).
And it is the practice, the sitting, the prostrations, the walking, the mindfulness which matter - far more than the books or sutras. I have no doubt that my practice during the five years before I entered the noviciate were what enabled me to 'survive' the first 30-day retreat. Some of my peers found the constant silence and isolation were intolerable at first. They already 'knew' a lot but the dedicated life is about the experience, the 'gut' rather than the 'head'.
Do you know Vicki Mackenzie's book about the English-born nun in the Tibetan tradition Tenzin Palmo? It is wonderful and very readable:
Cave In The Snow
Palzang
I also must say that I completely disagree with Knitwitche's opinion of what the monastic life entails. I won't go into too deeply here because Palzang and Simon have covered most of it, but I will say that becoming a genuine Buddhist monastic is never taking the easy way out. Ever. In fact, it's just the opposite. It's called "Going forth" for a reason.
Everything I've ever learned about Buddhist monasticism is contrary to your assertions, Knitwitch. I can't help feeling that perhaps you're confusing the Buddhist traditions with something else. Buddhist monastics go forth into the community. They are expected to be teachers, social workers, therapists, janitors, doctors, nurses, builders, and on and on. They are among the hardest working people on this planet.
I also don't understand why you're giving TwoHands such a hard time. She's said and done nothing wrong. In fact, she's been describing one of the most beautiful aspirations a human can have, service to others, and you're acting like she's offended in some way. I just don't get it.
I also want to point out that in some monastic traditions, the monks and nuns are not even allowed to prepare their own meals. If anyone is interested in why that is so, all you have to do is look it up. The reasons behind that rule will explain a lot.
Here's to all those who have "Gone forth"!! May all great blessings come to you and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
b) I think Two Hands needed some tough questions to make her look at her decision (and I wasn't the only one) to be sure that she was not entering into it with unrealistic expectations and as it turns out, not even having been on a retreat before taking monastic vows, I might have had a point
so c) I was not giving her a hard time.
I think it is vital to give anyone considering a lifelong commitment as hard a time as possible, whether it is about marriage, profession or vocation. These are not states to be entered into lightly and no serious abbot or abbess would entertain an applicant without making them jump through hoops of fire and crawl across broken glass (often metaphorically!!!) before accepting them. So, from that poibt of view, I think you are absolutely right, KW. Any novice will have to deal with much harder problems than a few difficult questions on a bulletin board.
On the other hand, I disagree about enclosed and contemplative orders, as well as hermits and anchorites. I admit that, from some points of view, they may appear 'useless' but, as always, it all depends on what you mean by 'use' and whether your view of the world supports those who appear 'useless'. I can argue for them on the grounds that, in the great scheme of things, they provide some balance to those of us who spend too little of our time in meditation and study.
Interestingly for me, as I read a Jewish philosopher's book on Spinoza, it strikes me that Judaism has rarely supported hermits but Orthodox Jewry contribute to the upkeep of scholars to enable them to devote all their time to Ha-Shem and the words of Torah and Talmud.
I'm sorry if I was too blunt in the communication of my disagreement. I really didn't mean to be. I guess it's because I like discussing things we don't all agree about because I find it so useful in coming to a better understanding of things and I think I'm probably one of those annoying people who are debaters at heart. Just know that even though I disagreed with you it doesn't change the fact that I love and admire you and will always do so no matter what we may disagree about.
When it comes to what life might be like as a monastic I wanted to point out that there are no Buddhist orders I know of that stay in retreat from the public permanently. From what I understand the Vinaya, the monastic rules set forth by the Buddha, precludes this and Plum Village is a particularly socially engaged community. As I'm sure you already know, Thich Nhat Hanh is famous for the international work he's done not only in the area of peace keeping but also in bringing members of various religious communities together in dialogue and understanding.
There are plenty of challenges one must face when deciding to become ordained in any Buddhist tradition. This is why one begins as a novice during which time one learns what monastic life actually entails before becoming officially ordained. The Buddhist monastic code is a highly developed system and the Buddha knew what he was doing when he created these rules.
As one third of the very precious Triple Gem, I view the Sangha as sacred and anyone genuinely wishing to devote their life to it as worthy of my support, both moral and financial. I don't expect everyone else in the world to share this opinion. I do expect the right to disagree with others about it and I expect the right to voice my disagreement in a respectful way. That's all it is, nothing more. Just disagreement. No biggie. So please don't read anything more into it than that. We can't all be in agreement about everything, can we? And it's a healthy thing to be able to discuss our varying viewpoints respectfully as we almost always do on this site. I often wonder what it must have been like during the meetings between the Buddha's followers after his death. Did any of them ever get mad and yell? Did tensions rise and faces go purple?
So that's just my two and a half cents. That's all it is.
Love,
Boo
I can see both sides of this debate. Not sure what to call it.
I feel that both sides do make good points.
I do agree that one should go on a long retreat before considering anything more...
I also understand KW's points on working for ones goals for a better appreciation.
I don't know you TwoHands or how old you are or even what your thoughts have been in other threads...
I do wish you the best on your journey......
Namaste'
Deb
Now, once again, I've faced hardship over pursuing something I want, and the harder I had to work to get there, the more I realized it is the right decision for me. Now that I'm on the verge of signing my reenlistment, I realize that all the hard work will pay off, I made the right decision, and I'm moving in the right direction in my life.
Two Hands, the best thing you can do here is face hardship before you get to where you want to be. A monastic life is a hard one, as it is based on self-denial and service. My advice to you would be to attend a retreat first, and then work on going into a monastic life. Once you can be certain it's what you want to do, then the means will come to you.
He was right - when I was training with a coven I drove for 5 hours, spent the weekend there for one ritual on the Saturday evening and drove back ... it depends what matters to you. And it needs a challenge to make you realise what DOES matter.
What on earth does this mean? Is religious practice a matter of mere psychological significance? If we really believe in dependent origination, we can't say that anyone is cut off from anyone else and anyone that has done long retreat knows that it is often a kind of "super-samsara" with all sorts of neurotic behaviours to deal with. There is no "escape from the world".
I personally believe that compassionate ritual activity by realized practitioners is hugely effective in helping others directly. In fact, their mere presence is a tremendous boon to the world. I certainly believe that there are yogis in caves and monastics in solitary retreat in the Himalayas and elsewhere that don't see people at all that are accomplishing tremendous meditations that benefit us all. Not everyone that helps you needs to say hi and shake your hand.
Importantly, for those of us that have taken refuge as Buddhists, the third jewel is the sangha-- the monastic community that has preserved the teachings so that we can hear them now.
Where is the pre-Gardner lineage of paganism? With but a few exceptions almost completely destroyed necessitating Gardner's reimagining of the tradition. These teachings have declined largely because there was no strong organization to maintain them from the onslaught of the syncretic Roman/Christic religion in its most bloodthirsty phase. This is a fundamentally important point: the sangha has preserved the teachings for us, particularly the extremely delicate vajrayana teachings which require a significant investment of time to realize and pass on to others. For this alone we should be grateful to support them.
Best regards,
Namgyal
Welcome to the board. Just out of interest, are you ordained?
Namaste
There are two parts. Buddhist monastics first go forth into the homeless life. They go forth away from the community. Then if ready & prepared, they go forth into the community.
Thank you, srivijaya. I am not ordained, though I might be inclined to add "yet". As life goes on, vairagya seems to build. Maybe this is just a mid-life crisis. :-)
Pranam.