Perpetually Negative Friend

Glow · April 2009

How does one compassionately deal with a friend who seems to be convinced of his own helplessness and consistently has a pessimistic outlook on his own prospects? I have tried to give him little "pep talks" from time to time, but he seems to be stuck in negativity and it affects me to the point where I now have to avoid contact with him.

Linc · April 2009

Glow wrote: »

I now have to avoid contact with him.

Unfortunately, I think you've found the answer to your question. :-/

Glow · April 2009

Lincoln wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think you've found the answer to your question. :-/

Yeah, I suspected that might be my only option now.

Shame. I really wanted to try and help him, but I find myself being sucked into his pessimism (which sometimes he has even directed at me). He is a good guy at heart, just very disillusioned I think. I found myself being an armchair psychotherapist to him most of the time.

_BeautifulSpringtime · April 2009

I had the exact same problems myself in the past. Eventually you have to let the person be who they are - all we can be is responsible for our own actions in life, I believe.

If you really want to help the person, by all means, give them a hand or listen well but eventually we must all stand on our own two feet.

I've made the mistake of becoming someone's crutch (entirely my own fault) and it does destroy good relationships and, in the end, hurt the person more than help them.

federica · April 2009

People like this are known as Emotional Vampires.
They literally suck the goodness out of us and deprive us of any good sensation, seeking out our positivity upon which to lean on. In the process, they leave us depleted, lacking of any brightness, and they fill our every waking moment with concern for them. They dominate our thinking as we ponder their issues, problems and agendas for them....

Avoidance is one way, but it leaves us feeling guilty and feeling that we have abandoned them, what will they think of us?

There is a way.

I speak from experience, having had the "great good fortune" of encountering two Emotional Vampires in my time.

On both occasions, I eventually resorted to resonding to their negative and self-pitying comments with positive anecdotes about myself.
Bear with me, and I'll tell you of one such episode:

We used to jhave two freinds whom I met in their courting days. They were so much in love, devoted to one another and an absolute joy to be with.
Once married, they seemed to transform into Mr & Mrs Negatively Grumpy, and I had no end of ear-bashing from her with constant tales of woe, mishaps, misfortunes and complaints about him.

The final straw was when they sent a birthday card to my daughter (then 7) apologising for its lateness, but then going on to recount their latest catalogue of woes.
Now, had she written it in a separate letter for me to read, enclosed in the card, well, that would have been one thing. But to actually write in the card that their dog had died, and the baby was sick, and hated-husband had been made redundant, and this, and that, and the other - well. I'd had more than enough.
I wrote back (something along the lines of) the following:

Dear *lady-moo*,
I was so sorry to read about your ongoing problems.
We are all very well! I have had great success at work, being promoted yet again, which is very gratifying, because it means I will have an altered work schedule giving me more time with the girls. *Husband* is doing great at work. He's helping to develop an new technical system which will see him working abroad and increasing his standing in the company. Eldest daughter is doing so well at school. She is so bright, and her enthusiasm and cheerfulness have made her very popular. Little one is begining to crawl everywhere, and is such a bundle of mischief!
Going to see my parents on holiday, and are looking forward to a couple of weeks of well-earned rest!
Much love, blah-blah!

I never heard from them again.

See, it's not the rersponse she wanted.
She wanted placatory, sympathetic, 'there there' responses, to bolster her own 'feeling-sorry-for-myself-edness'....
I refused to give it up.
So, of their own accord, they stopped getting in touch,m because she realised, in one fell swoop, I wans't going to be her buffer any more.

I did something similar with vampire #2, as well.

Works like a charm. And they stop contacting you of their own accord.
So you don't have to cut them off.
They do this, all on their own.
Vampires can't take sunshine, you see.......

*not her real name. :P

jinzang · April 2009

Don't try to "fix" your friend. Just listen with a sympathetic ear.

Brigid · April 2009

federica wrote: »

People like this are known as Emotional Vampires.
They literally suck the goodness out of us and deprive us of any good sensation, seeking out our positivity upon which to lean on. In the process, they leave us depleted, lacking of any brightness, and they fill our every waking moment with concern for them. They dominate our thinking as we ponder their issues, problems and agendas for them....

Avoidance is one way, but it leaves us feeling guilty and feeling that we have abandoned them, what will they think of us?

There is a way.

I speak from experience, having had the "great good fortune" of encountering two Emotional Vampires in my time.

On both occasions, I eventually resorted to resonding to their negative and self-pitying comments with positive anecdotes about myself.
Bear with me, and I'll tell you of one such episode:

We used to jhave two freinds whom I met in their courting days. They were so much in love, devoted to one another and an absolute joy to be with.
Once married, they seemed to transform into Mr & Mrs Negatively Grumpy, and I had no end of ear-bashing from her with constant tales of woe, mishaps, misfortunes and complaints about him.

The final straw was when they sent a birthday card to my daughter (then 7) apologising for its lateness, but then going on to recount their latest catalogue of woes.
Now, had she written it in a separate letter for me to read, enclosed in the card, well, that would have been one thing. But to actually write in the card that their dog had died, and the baby was sick, and hated-husband had been made redundant, and this, and that, and the other - well. I'd had more than enough.
I wrote back (something along the lines of) the following:

Dear *lady-moo*,
I was so sorry to read about your ongoing problems.
We are all very well! I have had great success at work, being promoted yet again, which is very gratifying, because it means I will have an altered work schedule giving me more time with the girls. *Husband* is doing great at work. He's helping to develop an new technical system which will see him working abroad and increasing his standing in the company. Eldest daughter is doing so well at school. She is so bright, and her enthusiasm and cheerfulness have made her very popular. Little one is begining to crawl everywhere, and is such a bundle of mischief!
Going to see my parents on holiday, and are looking forward to a couple of weeks of well-earned rest!
Much love, blah-blah!

I never heard from them again.

See, it's not the rersponse she wanted.
She wanted placatory, sympathetic, 'there there' responses, to bolster her own 'feeling-sorry-for-myself-edness'....
I refused to give it up.
So, of their own accord, they stopped getting in touch,m because she realised, in one fell swoop, I wans't going to be her buffer any more.

I did something similar with vampire #2, as well.

Works like a charm. And they stop contacting you of their own accord.
So you don't have to cut them off.
They do this, all on their own.
Vampires can't take sunshine, you see.......

*not her real name. :P

LOTS of wisdom here. Loved this, Fede.

I've had the misfortune myself although I've thankfully lost touch with all the 'negative vibe merchants' I used to know. (A gold star if anyone can trace the expression...TWO gold stars if you're not a Brit.) Sometimes I wish I had just told them straight out that the friendship was struggling due their negativity. I wish I'd said "You know, I love you to death and I think you're a wonderful human being but your negativity is just KILLING me."

I never did. Oh well. What I couldn't do, geographical distance did!

Glow · April 2009

*BeautifulSpringtimeFist* wrote: »

I had the exact same problems myself in the past. Eventually you have to let the person be who they are - all we can be is responsible for our own actions in life, I believe.

If you really want to help the person, by all means, give them a hand or listen well but eventually we must all stand on our own two feet.

I've made the mistake of becoming someone's crutch (entirely my own fault) and it does destroy good relationships and, in the end, hurt the person more than help them.

Very true, BeautifulSpringFist. I guess I have to come to terms with the fact that I can't solve his problems for him, as much as I would like to. Restraint is the hardest thing.

federica wrote: »

People like this are known as Emotional Vampires.
They literally suck the goodness out of us and deprive us of any good sensation, seeking out our positivity upon which to lean on. In the process, they leave us depleted, lacking of any brightness, and they fill our every waking moment with concern for them. They dominate our thinking as we ponder their issues, problems and agendas for them....

Avoidance is one way, but it leaves us feeling guilty and feeling that we have abandoned them, what will they think of us?

There is a way.

I speak from experience, having had the "great good fortune" of encountering two Emotional Vampires in my time.

On both occasions, I eventually resorted to resonding to their negative and self-pitying comments with positive anecdotes about myself.
Bear with me, and I'll tell you of one such episode:

We used to jhave two freinds whom I met in their courting days. They were so much in love, devoted to one another and an absolute joy to be with.
Once married, they seemed to transform into Mr & Mrs Negatively Grumpy, and I had no end of ear-bashing from her with constant tales of woe, mishaps, misfortunes and complaints about him.

The final straw was when they sent a birthday card to my daughter (then 7) apologising for its lateness, but then going on to recount their latest catalogue of woes.
Now, had she written it in a separate letter for me to read, enclosed in the card, well, that would have been one thing. But to actually write in the card that their dog had died, and the baby was sick, and hated-husband had been made redundant, and this, and that, and the other - well. I'd had more than enough.
I wrote back (something along the lines of) the following:

Dear *lady-moo*,
I was so sorry to read about your ongoing problems.
We are all very well! I have had great success at work, being promoted yet again, which is very gratifying, because it means I will have an altered work schedule giving me more time with the girls. *Husband* is doing great at work. He's helping to develop an new technical system which will see him working abroad and increasing his standing in the company. Eldest daughter is doing so well at school. She is so bright, and her enthusiasm and cheerfulness have made her very popular. Little one is begining to crawl everywhere, and is such a bundle of mischief!
Going to see my parents on holiday, and are looking forward to a couple of weeks of well-earned rest!
Much love, blah-blah!

I never heard from them again.

See, it's not the rersponse she wanted.
She wanted placatory, sympathetic, 'there there' responses, to bolster her own 'feeling-sorry-for-myself-edness'....
I refused to give it up.
So, of their own accord, they stopped getting in touch,m because she realised, in one fell swoop, I wans't going to be her buffer any more.

I did something similar with vampire #2, as well.

Works like a charm. And they stop contacting you of their own accord.
So you don't have to cut them off.
They do this, all on their own.
Vampires can't take sunshine, you see.......

*not her real name. :P

Wonderful post, federica. Thank you for this. The description of emotional vampirism captures the dynamic of our relationship quite well. And I can also palpably feel his turn off when I try to share positivity as opposed to negativity, so I would not be surprised if he were to move on if I refused to placate him. I will definitely try this approach, because I find myself constantly drained after being with him. I am not even a habitually sunny person, but I need to preserve what little positivity I do have as I am prone to depression.

jinzang wrote: »

Don't try to "fix" your friend. Just listen with a sympathetic ear.

This is very good advice, yes. And I would be able to put it into practice with most people I know. But it has become very difficult for me to feel any sympathy for him when he is directly involved in perpetuating his own misery. When he keeps coming back to me with the same issues, over and over again, without any willingness to do something about it, it is rather frustrating. I suggest simple things like starting an exercise program or going to bed earlier or even just practicing self-compassion. Little things that could make a world of difference for him. But he plays the helplessness card, saying that he doesn't have the discipline to do any of that. This would be perfectly fine... if he didn't insist on complaining about being out-of-shape, having poor sleep habits, feeling self-loathing, etc. One can only watch this vicious cycle a few times, before losing sympathy.

Brigid wrote: »

LOTS of wisdom here. Loved this, Fede.

I've had the misfortune myself although I've thankfully lost touch with all the 'negative vibe merchants' I used to know. (A gold star if anyone can trace the expression...TWO gold stars if you're not a Brit.) Sometimes I wish I had just told them straight out that the friendship was struggling due their negativity. I wish I'd said "You know, I love you to death and I think you're a wonderful human being but your negativity is just KILLING me."

I never did. Oh well. What I couldn't do, geographical distance did!

I have actually said something very similar to this to him; that our friendship was threatened by his using me as a place to dump his negativity. If possible, I would like to maintain our friendship, but not if it's based solely on the this dynamic. Hopefully, federica's approach may prove a good litmus test to see if he is interested in our friendship beyond just using me as his therapist.

Brigid · April 2009

Yes, I think that's the wisest course too, Glow. Here's hoping for the best!

sara · April 2009

Hi Brigid,

They very probably don't realise they're like that.

Why not give them the 'gift' of realisation and tell them they are (to the point but tactful!) and while you will always be there for them, you feel you need your friendship to be based on more than their problems, or you'll not have enough in common to be able to continue as friends.

I really think telling them is good. I did this with quite a demanding friend who's very OCD (I am too but not in the same way so I'm fortunate). She was grateful I'd said it. I think honesty proves you care enough not to bull s**t the person.

If it's a very generalised negativity about nothing in particular I would say that their attitude brings you down and just "what are we going to do about it?"

See what they say...

Good luck in whatever you decide anyway!

Brigid · April 2009

sara wrote: »

Hi Brigid,

They very probably don't realise they're like that.

Why not give them the 'gift' of realisation and tell them they are (to the point but tactful!) and while you will always be there for them, you feel you need your friendship to be based on more than their problems, or you'll not have enough in common to be able to continue as friends.

I really think telling them is good. I did this with quite a demanding friend who's very OCD (I am too but not in the same way so I'm fortunate). She was grateful I'd said it. I think honesty proves you care enough not to bull s**t the person.

If it's a very generalised negativity about nothing in particular I would say that their attitude brings you down and just "what are we going to do about it?"

See what they say...

Good luck in whatever you decide anyway!

Thanks, Sara, and I think you're absolutely right. It's the more compassionate thing to do and I'm definitely going to keep it in mind in the future.

sara · April 2009

Similar question in the 'What do you do with a ........ person?' theme.

What do you do confronted with someone who is totally incapable of speaking their own mind? To the point where everytime you speak to them you feel like you're putting that person under huge pressure to unveil themselves and feel uncomfortable around them? Makes me feel like I've just poured salt on a snail!

My mother will turn herself in knots to avoid telling you her real feelings. Reminds me of the Asian 'losing face' concept. Even the smallest thing.

I have asked her to be more direct but she gets mortally offended.

I guess it's having just come back from France after five years. People are more blunt there. But this older generation faux politeness English thing officially does my head in now!

federica · April 2009

That is their responsibility.
You have given them every opportunity to express themselves.
You have tried to be kind, loving, understanding and empathetic.
You can't run for them.
All you can do is to assure them that you are open and receptive to them, and available to talk to.
But if thery're doing a really good impression of a clam, metaphorically twisting the knife in, and trying to prise them open, is both insensitive and unwanted! they squeeze back, and how!

At the same time, do not hold back from speaking your own mind and do not therefore mirror them in hesitating to speak up.
Simply be mindful of your speech and Intention.....

All really easy stuff.

hah!!

sara · April 2009

Hmmm, makes conversation a bit hard but hey!

Jerbear · April 2009

As a former emotional vampire, it took someone to tell me to "SHUT THE **** UP! I CAN'T STAND LISTENING TO YOUR COMPLAINING ANY MORE". I did finally seek professional help and dealt with what is bothering me. When friends do this to me, I will listen but will not take it on me to fix them. I have a friend who swears she will be alone and that it is not her fault but everyone else is a jerk. I've politely pointed out at times when it is unreasonable to think these things. But when she wants to whine I usually give it a 10 minute limit and then change the subject. I have the right to have a good day and feel the positive feelings that I've developed through working for it. I finally had to tell this person that her working in a factory was not on the same level of responsibility that I had as a registered nurse ICU. That was the day that I was so mad I felt like telling her not to call ever again.

I must agree with dear Fede! You don't have to allow the person to suck the positivity out of you. You may want to make a list for when this person calls so that you can have it ready with positive things going on with you. This friend I mention felt that I took an antidepressant, felt better, and never had any more problems. I remind her that It took a couple of years, a lot journaling, and looking at my problems and finding solutions that worked for me. I share this next one as I try my best not to say "GET REAL!" at this one, but she feels that since she took 2 psychology courses at the local community college that she knows how psychology works and doesn't need the help of a therapist.

For everything you come up with, they will have at least 3 reasons why it does not apply to them. Be prepared. If you need a break from the relationship, take it! You're allowed! If you need to end it, don't feel guilt. One thing that has really helped me is saying the Metta Bhavana with this person in mind. They need a lot of loving kindness, and this is a way we can give it to them without their interrupting us while we do it.

federica · April 2009

Jerbear wrote: »

For everything you come up with, they will have at least 3 reasons why it does not apply to them.

Oh my goodness yes!! They start every sentence with "yes, but...." - !

I told a friend of mine in France, that every time she began a sentence with yes but - she was kicking herself in the butt!

She would then 'cleverly' revert to French....

In French it's "Oui, mais...." And I would reply, "Yes, 'we may'! But are we going to....?" (see what I did there.....?

)

Be prepared. If you need a break from the relationship, take it! You're allowed! If you need to end it, don't feel guilt. One thing that has really helped me is saying the Metta Bhavana with this person in mind. They need a lot of loving kindness, and this is a way we can give it to them without their interrupting us while we do it.

Absolutely right. This is self-protection, and we should all adopt this.
Simply because another person is in need, does not mean that to try to make them less vulnerable, we too, should join them. Counter-productive, or what?

Hey, here's an idea!
You could try having a *urinating* contest with them - !!
Every time they complain, reply -
"Huh!! You think that's bad? That's nothing!! I was......" and make something horrendous up, and see what they do!:D

No maybe not.... but keep your sense of humour, whatever happens!

Simonthepilgrim · April 2009

A couple of thoughts arise, Sara.

The first is that there are many people who simply do not know what they are feeling or, even, thinking. Their focus is so turned towards those outside them (to please, or help, or worry about) that they have never looked 'inwards'.

The second comes from Eric Berne's Game Theory (see Games People Play among others). In this model, the most authentic form of transaction is labelled 'intimacy'. It is presupposed that all humans tend towards authenticity or 'health' while, simultaneously, finding it scary. Various ways of 'structuring time and relationships' are closer to or further from intimacy. The furthest is the simple "Hi!"/"Hi!" transaction. Game playing is closest to intimacy and mimics it. I have written that there are people for whom skill at game playing is as close as their 'script' permits.

sara · April 2009

Thanks Simon - I have a whole list of stuff to Google right now thanks to you lol

(and they ask me why my fingers are permanently superglued to this keyboard - lool)

Glow · May 2009

Wow, this thread grew quite a lot since I last was here. Thanks for all the advice, guys. I tried something like a combination of jerbear's advice and federica's approach and, to my astonishment, rather than turning off, my friend actually has gradually lit up over the past two weeks. Needless to say, I was quite surprised, but the quality of our friendship feels much more balanced now. Thanks again for your advice.

nomad · May 2009

Glow wrote: »

How does one compassionately deal with a friend who seems to be convinced of his own helplessness and consistently has a pessimistic outlook on his own prospects? I have tried to give him little "pep talks" from time to time, but he seems to be stuck in negativity and it affects me to the point where I now have to avoid contact with him.

JessicaSparkles · May 2009

My friend is a perpetual victim. You can tell he has no desire to change himself because he likes to describe himself as "having" depression - as though it's not something he's experiencing but this terrible external circumstance that is happening to him. He favours the out of date theory that depression is ultimately caused by a chemical imbalance because it allows him to handle it with a simple pill rather than inward investigation.

I've tried sympathy

I've tried inviting him to come to meditation ("My treatment/condition is incompatible with meditation because it causes panic attacks" was his excuse. Huh?)

I had some success with telling him "Yeah well life is suffering. Nothing good ever lasts. This stuff happens to you all the time. Try not to look so surpised after all these years!" The only problem is that he wishes to remain an "optimist" and an "idealist" and imagines he can change the world to suit him - but first he has to acknowledge it.

Now he's started clinically narcissistic dishonesty behaviour in social situations, I'm hearing exact repeats of the "People are saying things about me that aren't true" and "People are sabotaging my work success" stuff that caused him to move to a different State and start a different career a year ago and I'm just about ready to smack him! Honestly! He's so busy defending himself and explaining all the terrible things that have occured that he never stops to wonder if his dysfunctional behaviour discourages people from trusting him with important work or causes his friends to freak out and change their minds. Knowing that it's caused by lack of confidence doesn't make it any more easy to tolerate.

Now I've done something wrong by him (for which I'm truly sorry). I could probably smooth over the immediate problem but I'd still be stuck with a psychological basket case of a friend.

People like this are stuck in dual thinking because they have a very tenuous grip on reality - they need it to be one thing or another so that they can stop panicking long enough to continue on their terrified path. I empathise and while I can't stay angry with him, I think it's time to realise that I'm just not yet capable of doing more good than harm by being friends with him.

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