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What happens after

NirvanaNoobNirvanaNoob
edited May 2009 in Buddhism Basics
What happens after a person commits suicide according to buddhism? Do they have less of a chance of coming back as a higher life form?

Comments

  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited April 2009
    Yes, I would say so. A human rebirth is exceedingly rare in the cycle of rebirths and the only real opportunity to attain enlightenment, so to rob someone, including yourself, of that opportunity by murdering them (which is what suicide is, self murder) is extremely negative karma.

    Palzang
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2009
    It'd depend on a lot of factors such as previous kamma, present kamma, quality of development along the path, etc. In general, it'd make it more difficult, but in certain cases recorded in the Pali Canon, monks who committed suicide actually attained awakening, e.g, MN 144.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited April 2009
    What happens after a person commits suicide according to Buddhist belief?
    Palzang wrote: »
    Yes, I would say so. A human rebirth is exceedingly rare in the cycle of rebirths and the only real opportunity to attain enlightenment, so to rob someone, including yourself, of that opportunity by murdering them (which is what suicide is, self murder) is extremely negative karma.

    Palzang, I love the way you think —and not least for your succinctness.



    Elohim wrote: »
    It'd depend on a lot of factors such as previous kamma, present kamma, quality of development along the path, etc. In general, it'd make it more difficult, but in certain cases recorded in the Pali Canon, monks who committed suicide actually attained awakening, e.g, MN 144.
    Jason, I love your thinking, too. However:lol: I'd ruther just take your word for it, because even as suicide is not for me, I'm more likely to commit it than ever get to the end of this [insufferable] MN 144 passage_____. Just let me sit back and let you think through this one for me. Guess I'll just save my brain cells for faster chases.:D
  • karmagalkarmagal
    edited May 2009
    Elohim wrote: »
    ....but in certain cases recorded in the Pali Canon, monks who committed suicide actually attained awakening, e.g, MN 144.

    I can believe this for some reason.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2009
    No one knows what happens after death. Any assertions about what happens are pure speculation.
  • nomadnomad
    edited May 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    No one knows what happens after death. Any assertions about what happens are pure speculation.

    So...reincarnated gurus are just speculation?

    ~nomad
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2009
    Yes, because even they cannot tell us what has happened "after Death".
    They have no recollection of what happened between dying, and being re-born.
    They manifest the characteristics of their previous incarnation, but they're not THAT person.

    Even HH the Dalai Lama is unable to attest to any "After-Death" experience.....
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited May 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    No one knows what happens after death. Any assertions about what happens are pure speculation.

    Fivebells,

    There is a lot that we do know about what happens after death. The coherence of the body ends and the process of 'rotting' begins in earnest. This process can be speeded up or slowed but appears to be universal.

    What you say, i.e. "no one knows what happens after death", applies only to the aspect of the person that we designate 'personality' or 'mind' or 'ego' or 'soul' or some such. The problem would seem to be that we have so many different definitions and explanations of this phenomenon of 'individual consciousness' and so little tangible evidence. I can show you a vermiform appendix but I can't show you a mind or a soul.

    This is the 'bit' of us (which we identify as being us) of which we know neither the origin nor the ending. It is the sparrow flying through the lighted hall and out again into the darkness.

    The closer I get to that darkness (again), the less I fear it or, even, wonder about it: there is so much to wonder at here and now.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2009
    @nomad: Are you sure you want to have this conversation? If you have a firm belief in the reincarnation of one guru or another, the conversation is going to be tedious and painful, and probably won't lead to any useful resolution.

    If you really want to have this conversation, what is the basis for the belief that these gurus have reincarnated?

    @simonthepilgrim: Yes, the problem is even more severe than that, because the "bit" which is imagined to persist beyond death doesn't even possess any inherent existence in this life.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited May 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    .............
    @simonthepilgrim: Yes, the problem is even more severe than that, because the "bit" which is imagined to persist beyond death doesn't even possess any inherent existence in this life.

    Indeed so - and much the same can be said of the body, too. At death, it disintegrates into its component parts, breaking down (if left alone), fertilising the earth or feeding the birds. It has 'no abiding city'. It was here for a while and now is gone but its elements remain in their new form.

    It seems to me to be human arrogance that suggests that there is some part of this gestalt that I call 'me' that transcends the rest of 'me' and avoids the dismantling of death.

    Mind you, I'm not even sure that the idea of 'survival' after death is particularly attractive, unless we go with some paradise garden mythology. What if it's Valhalla and we all have to be warriors, dying each day and feasting each night. Oh the tedium!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    @nomad: Are you sure you want to have this conversation? If you have a firm belief in the reincarnation of one guru or another, the conversation is going to be tedious and painful, and probably won't lead to any useful resolution.

    It should be neither, providing we hold onto the view that whatever other people may think/believe, they have a right to do so, and that we should practise acceptance.

    Discussions are all very well, providing debates do not stray into the "I think you're mad to think this!" realm......
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2009
    I agree, federica, but it usually doesn't work out that way.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2009
    Aaaah.....well you see....

    That's what I'm here for. :p

    :cool:
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2009
    Awesome. Perhaps you can tell me what I'm doing wrong. (I am fivebells in that thread, too.)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2009
    Maybe you're all clinging to your perceptions. And Perception can be deception......?
    But it's not for me to say what is 'Right' or 'Wrong', in that thread.
    It's for me to only use my judgement here.....
    My judgement here, is not based on any Buddhist premise. It's based on the social values of inter-personal conduct.
    It's very simple.

    :om:
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2009
    Fair enough. Feel free to pass on any suggestions regarding my conduct, though. It's something I'm very interested in.
  • nomadnomad
    edited May 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    @nomad: Are you sure you want to have this conversation? If you have a firm belief in the reincarnation of one guru or another, the conversation is going to be tedious and painful, and probably won't lead to any useful resolution.

    If you really want to have this conversation, what is the basis for the belief that these gurus have reincarnated?

    I am still new to Buddhism and in learning mode. I think you made some unnecessary judgments about my comment since I never said that I wanted a tedious and ultimately meaningless conversation nor did I say that I believed there was undeniable proof of reincarnated gurus. I was merely asking if your broad statement included the reports of reincarnated gurus. I’m not going to waste my time arguing something that can’t be proven anyway. I asked a simple question and was hoping you would clarify your statement and not assume I was interested in going back and forth with you. I’ve got better things to do with my time and I’m sure that you do as well. :)

    All I have to go on are reports that some modern day gurus are reincarnations of other, older teachers. It seems to me that the concept is generally accepted in Buddhism and I was interested in a contrasting viewpoint. I haven’t come to a conclusion yet on whether I believe it because I’ve never had an opportunity to meet and evaluate one of them. I’m not sure it’s something I could ever believe from text, but is instead something that I would need to experience firsthand.

    ~nomad
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2009
    You're right, I jumped to a conclusion. Thanks for clarifying.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited May 2009
    I once asked one of my teachers (a Tibetan tulku) if he could remember his past lives and he said 'no'. On another occasion a friend told him that he wasn't able to believe in rebirth and the teacher said " Never mind about other lives, this is the one that counts!"

    I have read endless re-birth debates on different forums with posters arguing for and against rebirth. Very interesting to read. My own view is however, that whichever we decide to believe, in the end its just endless speculation and conceptual thinking taking us away from the freshness of the present moment. In a certain sense we are rebirthing ourselves from moment to moment with the forming of strong opinions which we then solidify mentally and become...whatever.

    However I may as well mention my own position on this now I've started
    I don't remember past lives and I never think about future lives. This life is the one that is relevent and I try my best to follow the lay precepts. honor my vows, be kind to other sentient beings, meditate and do any other practice suggested by my teachers.

    I have no idea what's going to happen at death(although I've received the TB teachings related to this) but I certainly don't want to be reborn and my aim is not to be.
    If I am reborn may it be in a place where I can have the causes and conditions to help others in some way. Other than that. as I said previously, its not something I'm bothered about one way or another, its not relevent to my day to day living -so I'll deal with it when it happens.:)


    With kind wishes,

    Dazzle
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2009
    Nomad, I think it worth mentioning (if you don't already know) that Tibetan Buddhism is the only school which ascribes to Gurus and Lamas being reincarnated.
    No other school deems this a possibility.

    All schools - including Tibetan Buddhism - hold the premise of re-birth. But only Tibetan Buddhism also adheres to the reincarnation principle.
  • PrometheusPrometheus
    edited May 2009
    [quote
    Mind you, I'm not even sure that the idea of 'survival' after death is particularly attractive, unless we go with some paradise garden mythology. What if it's Valhalla and we all have to be warriors, dying each day and feasting each night. Oh the tedium!
    [/quote]

    What are you talking about? Valhalla is so much cooller than heaven! An eternity of feasting, drinking, fighting, Swedish girls, and partying it up 'till the end of the universe. Beats the hell outta sitting in some dull 'paradise garden' playing a harp with a bunch of chaste born-again evangelists!

    *cough*... excuse me... 23 year old male...
  • nomadnomad
    edited May 2009
    federica wrote: »
    Nomad, I think it worth mentioning (if you don't already know) that Tibetan Buddhism is the only school which ascribes to Gurus and Lamas being reincarnated.
    No other school deems this a possibility.

    All schools - including Tibetan Buddhism - hold the premise of re-birth. But only Tibetan Buddhism also adheres to the reincarnation principle.

    Thanks, Fed. Sometimes I still get rebirth and reincarnation terms crossed. :cool:

    ~nomad
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2009
    Actually, you can find claims of reincarnation in all schools of Buddhism, but in Tibetan Buddhism it holds a special place as a key determinant of social status.

    nomad, reincarnation means the persistence of some kind of identity past death into a new life. I've never heard a precise definition of what persists, but it seems to involve memories and character traits. Rebirth is a more general term, which potentially includes reincarnation, but also includes shifts in perspective, mood and values from moment to moment. One moment you might be angry, and in the standard Buddhist cosmology, this corresponds to rebirth in the "hell" realm. The next moment you might have forgotten the anger completely, and be striving to impress someone, and this corresponds to rebirth in the "titan" realm. Central questions in Buddhist practice are, "What persists across these rebirths? What experiences this current realm?" It's pretty heavy going, but I've found this essay helpful in understanding this.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2009
    That's interesting fivebells, I didn't know that. I was under the impression that Theravada for example, 'dismissed' (that's a strong word... I don't know which other might suit better, here) the reincarnation aspect.....

    Can you give me a clue or reference as to where Theravada ascribes to reincarnation?

    Thank you!

    :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2009
    We can thus make a clear distinction between the terms "Reincarnation" and "Rebirth."

    "Reincarnation" is the term used by those who hold that a real entity (a "soul") exists and passes on from life to life, occupying successive bodies. Literally, this should only apply to manifestation in "fleshy" bodies, though it is commonly applied to discarnate states as well. "Rebirth" denotes the Buddhist view that while this is indeed what seems to happen, the true process is entirely impersonal. What, therefore, in terms of relative truth appears (and can be experienced by some) as Reincarnation, is in terms of absolute truth Rebirth.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/walshe/wheel261.html
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited May 2009
    OK, I had a different understanding of the distinction you were drawing, because Tibetan Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation as you've defined it, either. I was assuming that you were calling it reincarnation if it appears "in terms of relative truth" that a "soul" is being transmigrated from life to life, because otherwise your assertion about Tibetan Buddhism is untrue.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2009
    Thank you for clarifying.
    Truth be told, until a couple of months ago, I was pretty much as confused as anyone could be, I then checked on a forum where Mahayana/Tibetan Buddhism was prominently and widely discussed, and was advised (in a tight nutshell) that although un-enlightened, un-realised, un-illuminated Tibetans ascribe to an 'ordinary' re-birth (forgive simplistic terms please!) they also ascribe to the view that realised, illuminated Lamas/Gurus are able to decide in whom they will next manifest, as Tulkus.
    The journey to locate the re-incarnated Lama/Guru (as a Tulku) can take many years. Those entrusted with the task have to follow clues laid down by the passing Lama/Guru, and once they feel they might have located the reincarnated Tulku, perform several exams, tests and whatever to verify that they have indeed located the correct 'person'.

    The Dalai Lama was four years old when he was finally discovered.
    The XIIIth Dalai Lama left behind several clues, and the current Dalai lama was able to satisfy all criteria of tests put to him.

    It has to be understood that the reincarnation may look absolutely nothing like the previous person/existence.... they could be strikingly different.
    The physiognomy is immaterial. it is the essential 'high' consciousness manifesting, that makes the tulku 'recognisable'....

    That is putting it quite simplistically, but I think it is accurate.....

    :)
  • nomadnomad
    edited May 2009
    federica wrote: »
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/walshe/wheel261.html

    <LINK rel=File-List href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CHOWARD%7E1.DAR%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><LINK rel=themeData href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CHOWARD%7E1.DAR%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><LINK rel=colorSchemeMapping href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CHOWARD%7E1.DAR%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><STYLE> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:1; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-format:other; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-520082689 -1073717157 41 0 66047 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:12.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </STYLE>That's a great text! Thanks for pointing it out. I had started to read it a few nights ago when Nirvana first posted about suicide, but I didn’t get through the entire thing.
    <O></O>
    ~nomad
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited May 2009
    Nothing survives death. But then we are reborn. Your paradox for the day! (no need to thank me)

    Palzang
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