compassion vs submissiveness

yuriythebest

Right, I am not irascible, however how do I treat anger in others? I don't respond to anger with anger, since anger is a form of insanity, but then I am on sort of a tightrope, because if I respond with "compassion" I either sound condescending, which provokes more anger, or I sound submissive, which makes people think they've won. Is there a golden middle?

Jason

Welcome to the forum, yuriythebest. Interesting question.

I think the possibility of provoking more anger is a bigger concern than making other people think they've won by dominating us in some way; but even so, we can only responsible for our actions. If we respond to anger in others with compassion and it provokes more anger, that's more a reflection of their unskillful mental states than any wrongdoing on our part.

I'm not sure of there's a "golden middle," but I do think that the most appropriate response often depends on the particular circumstances involved. Compassion might not always be the most skillful approach, but as a general rule, I think it's a much more skillful response than anger.

Jason

federica

Yuri, whatever the circumstances might dictate, I'm very glad for you that you manage to control that element in yourself.
Anger of course, is not to be suppressed, but channelled and transformed.
If you simply do not manifest anger because you 'force it down' and suppress it, I advise caution, because it has to therefore manifest in other ways....
if however, you've got a good handle on it, and you are simply able to respond without feeling angry at all, I commend that, I do!

I remember once (and it's quite memorable, because of the man's irrational and disproportionate level of anger) letting a gentleman vent until he was spent. Had no more to say.
Then, I acknowleged his anger, and empathised with him...
"Goodness, you really are very angry about this aren't you? I take your point...."

It's almost as if I'd released a blown-up balloon... he just seemed to 'deflate, but not because I'd literally knocked the wind out of his sails.
He actually seemed relieved that I'd recognised just how angry he was....

It therefore took me far less time to help solve his problem, than if I'd bellowed back.

Must remember this more often.....:rolleyes:



Welcome, Yuri.
Nice to meet you.

Jason

federica wrote: »

Anger of course, is not to be suppressed, but channelled and transformed.
If you simply do not manifest anger because you 'force it down' and suppress it, I advise caution, because it has to therefore manifest in other ways....

Good point, Fede.

if however, you've got a good handle on it, and you are simply able to respond without feeling angry at all, I commend that, I do!

I second that! if I could only be so lucky.

Orangeblossom

In this dificult journey of ours, it's tough to learn that you can not control the reactions of others. If their perceptions are such that they see your 'lack' of anger as a submissive and somehow weak trait, then I do agree with Elohim that it is a reflection of their state of mind. I am guilty of sometimes having the compassion equation of it all outweigh the skillfull means bit, so that is something I struggle with. Wisdom and compassion need to balance each other - and it can be a very difficult formula.

yuriythebest

thanks y'all!

Palzang

I think the hardest part is actually understanding what compassion is. Compassion is giving someone what they need rather than what you may want to give them or what they may want to have (the key words being "need" and "want") Sometimes compassion can appear harsh, but if it's what the person needs, then it comes from a place of love. Otherwise you're just practicing idiot compassion, which doesn't help anyone.

Palzang

Dazzle

Re: 'Otherwise you're just practicing idiot compassion, which doesn't help anyone.

Palzang '


As the late Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche used the term 'idiot compassion' I thought it worthwhile to quote him below:


"Student:

Could you briefly describe 'idiot compassion'?


Chogyam Trungpa:

Idiot compassion is the highly conceptualized idea
that you want to do good....Of course, [according to
the Mahayana teachings of Buddhism] you should do
everything for everybody; there is no selection
involved at all. But that doesn't mean to say that you
have to be gentle all the time. Your gentleness should
have heart, strength. In order that your compassion
doesn't become idiot compassion, you have to use your
intelligence. Otherwise, there could be self-indulgence
of thinking that you are creating a compassionate situation
when in fact you are feeding the other person's aggression.
If you go to a shop and the shopkeeper cheats you and you
go back and let him cheat you again, that doesn't seem to
be a very healthy thing to do for others."


( The Collected Works of Chogyam Trungpa Volume 2)

srivijaya

yuriythebest wrote: »

Right, I am not irascible, however how do I treat anger in others? I don't respond to anger with anger, since anger is a form of insanity, but then I am on sort of a tightrope, because if I respond with "compassion" I either sound condescending, which provokes more anger, or I sound submissive, which makes people think they've won. Is there a golden middle?

Hi yuriythebest,
I find this approach helps:

SN 7.2: Akkosa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn07/sn07.002.budd.html

Once the Blessed One was staying at Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove near the Squirrels' Feeding Place. Now the brahman Akkosa Bharadvaja heard this: "The brahman Bharadvaja, it seems, has become a monk under the Great Monk Gotama." Angry and unhappy, he went to where the Blessed One was. Having approached the Blessed One, he abused and criticized the Blessed One in foul and harsh words. Thus reviled, the Blessed One spoke to the brahman Akkosa Bharadvaja: 'Well, brahman, do friends, confidants, relatives, kinsmen and guests visit you?"

"Yes, Gotama, sometimes friends, confidants, relatives, kinsmen and guests do visit me."

"Well, brahman, do you not offer them snacks or food or tidbits?"

"Yes, Gotama, sometimes I do offer them snacks or food or tidbits."

"But if, brahman, they do not accept it, who gets it?"

"If Gotama, they do not accept it, I get it back."

"Even so, brahman, you are abusing us who do not abuse, you are angry with us who do not get angry, you are quarreling with us who do not quarrel. All this of yours we don't accept. You alone, brahman, get it back; all this, brahman, belongs to you.

"When, brahman, one abuses back when abused, repays anger in kind, and quarrels back when quarreled with, this is called, brahman, associating with each other and exchanging mutually. This association and mutual exchange we do not engage in. Therefore you alone, brahman, get it back; all this, brahman, belongs to you."

Don't take the food of anger from another. Leave it on their plate. It stays theirs.

Namaste

yuriythebest

srivijaya wrote: »

Don't take the food of anger from another. Leave it on their plate. It stays theirs.

Namaste

yeah that's a nice idea but I like the "idiot compassion" explanation better. Yeah of course I get that responding to ire with ire is bad, the question was how to handle irascible people. I really like the "logical approach", I was presented with, that is not just blindly acting "compassionately" to everyone but instead to act in a healthy manner, not to repress yourself and at the same time not get angry.

federica

Granted, but it's worth quietly thinking to yourself, "I don't have to accept this, and I won't take this personally... something is definitely up with this person, and they're not feeling too good about things. That's their bag, not mine. All I need to do, is chill.".....

Orangeblossom

Palzang wrote: »

I think the hardest part is actually understanding what compassion is. Compassion is giving someone what they need rather than what you may want to give them or what they may want to have (the key words being "need" and "want") Sometimes compassion can appear harsh, but if it's what the person needs, then it comes from a place of love. Otherwise you're just practicing idiot compassion, which doesn't help anyone.

Palzang

Exactly. That is something I struggle with. I think it definitly requires you to create some space in your mind so that you don't mix up your emotions, and let those or your ego get involved.

Palzang

Thanks, Dazzle!

Yeah, OB. Basically what you have to do is get yourself out of the way, which, of course, isn't easy! But that's why they call it "practice".

Palzang

Simonthepilgrim

Compassion and wisdom. The twin fruits of practice and the gifts of enlightenment.