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Sniping at the Dalai Lama
jinzang
Veteran
The Dalai Lama is back in the US again and there' an article about his talk at the University of California. I noticed some sniping in the comments section. Some is from China's Fifty Cent Army and others appear to be from the NKT. If anyone on this forum is from the NKT, please stop doing this. You are only hurting Buddhism without helping your own group. You can have any opinion about the Dalai Lama you wish, but criticizing him like this is not advancing your cause.
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Comments
Palzang
Palzang
P.S. What exactly is a gorm anyway?
I started to suspect that that was part of their cause/movement.
It is a matter of regret perhaps and I notice that it is hard to see past any political movement or cause in this world.
i.e. It is hard to convince any person who feels compelled to fight for their own cause/religion/belief/self that what they are doing is not helpful and harms our world.
Which is why I keep coming back to perhaps Dhamma is the only answer, and yet even in religion ... And so I mean genuine Dhamma insight/liberation - not the type offered up by any one religion or movement.
_/\_
PS A good benchmark or rule of thumb for anyone is perhaps - is this action/speech causing harm - even if that is to promote discord -- it is hard indeed to see past one's self righteousness and so perhaps some caution is warranted for everyone. That includes myself. Thanks for your post, Jinzang and well wishes to His Holiness and all practitioners of Dhamma. Safe travels.
I also know - from his own words - that there are some matters in his own School of Buddhism that do not entirely sit comfortably on his shoulders (the attitude towards homosexuality for example) but that simply because he is not entirely comfortable with the teachings does not mean they can be changed at a stroke. these are ancient and traditional doctrines, and they cannot be simply wiped at a stroke, by the personal opinions of "A simple Monk".....It would cause a schism in the Tradition if he declared it to be so....
Therefore he is bound by his calling to adhere to certain practice.
And that is both noble and devoted of him.
it's a hard line to walk....
So I deeply respect him, and his principles.
Mind you, if anyone starts slanging off the Deli Lama, they could be right.... things in his store are way past the sell-by date.....:wtf:
To try to destroy HHDL's tireless efforts to contribute to world peace and harmony is sadly, a grave mistake being made by these cult members.
May His Holiness live for many more years.
Dazzle _/\_
.
Curious that you can be gormless, but you can't be gormFUL..... or even just Gorm...
Just as you may be overwhelmed, which has led to the relatively recent use of 'underwhelmed'.... but not simply 'whelmed'......
:cool:
This is off-topic, but it's your thread, and you started it!
_/l\_
I would say I feel sorry for these people if I could find a way not to make it sound patronizing. But I can't. And I am. Very sorry. They have given over their minds to false gurus and have been led astray which is a tragedy.
I hope they come to their senses soon for their own sakes, not his Holiness'. I figure he can handle the mischief.
I agree Brigid and Dazzle. The whole NKT thing is very sad.
Palzang
I am also reminded of the saying that those in glass houses should be careful not to throw stones. I was involved with establishing and running a group which was subsequently to become an NKT group in my city in the late eighties. I witnessed now things changed from being an amateurish but friendly bunch of free-thinking people interested in Buddhism to being a proper “devotional” guru-worshiping Tibetan temple under the guidance of my former teacher Samden Gyatso.
The NKT was not properly established then, although unbeknown to me, the seeds had been sown within the context of the brewing Shugden affair. There were still pictures of the Dali Lama on the walls of its centres and books by a variety of Buddhist authors in its libraries. Kelsang was doing what any Tibetan teacher does, namely introducing concepts like guru-worship to western students and spreading the Dharma. I never felt drawn to any Shugden practice, as I could never see the point of it and my work and life took me away from England and Buddhism before things really erupted. For me, there was never an acrimonious split but I have never wished to return, as there are many things I would not feel comfortable with but perhaps I may ask anyone reading this to quietly consider the following.
What has Kelsang ever done which is not typical for Tibetan Buddhism in the West? He has a group of devotees which view him as Buddha - so do devotees of any Tibetan teacher (or they damn well should, if they are doing it right). He carries heaps of cultural baggage (like Shugden) which have nothing to do with what was brought into Tibet by the Mahasiddhas of India - so do all the others. He is a controversial figure but how many western gurus are also controversial? There are financial, sexual and other mutterings around lots of them (Palzang knows what I mean) but true devotees are trained to see this as “skillful means” or some kind of test of their faith and in any case to never ever question the purity of their guide (but you can fling as much mud as you wish at someone else’s - that’s okay).
Tibetan Buddhism is riddled with this hypocritical tit-for-tat, as it relies on unswerving devotion as a prerequisite of success. This doesn’t sit well with the critical western ethos of investigation without bias. Kelsang, like Conrad’s fictional character Kurtz came into a “place of darkness” at the behest of his masters and enjoyed success which no one could have predicted. They ultimately lost control of him and he built his own kingdom amongst the natives. So now he’s outside of their tent pissing in (instead of vice versa) and all because of the Dali Lama’s animosity towards the Tibetan cultural spirit worship Kelsang brought here with him.
The irony of it is that any “sanctioned” replacement practice would be equally just a piece of cultural baggage. Had this whole affair never happened, I’m sure Kelsang would be counted by the Tibetan top brass as one of the most successful and beloved missionaries they ever dispatched.
Just my 2 cents.
Namaste
Kris
I could go on and on, but I really have had my fill of the whole thing. I would only say that the NKT is to be avoided at all costs.
Palzang
Hi Palzang,
As to the question of Shugden and all the misery that has come from it, it speaks for itself. Buddha never taught spirit worship of any kind - period. This is in no way in accordance with the Dharma and I could see that more or less straight away - hence I never propitiated. The difference is that Tibetans and many westerners believe that these spirits are real. Seriously, that is the worrying thing, that's why they're doing harm to each other.
Give me the Easter Bunny any day.
As to the other stuff, it wasn't that I was "ignoring" it, just that it seems pointless raking over someone else's argument. I kind of think, that's what you get from believing in and acting upon superstition.
Namaste
However, that doesn't mean that there are no such things as demons out there that are malicious and dangerous. They are beings who have become obsessed with their own hatred and ego, the complete antithesis of Buddhist practitioners. That there are such beings I know for a fact as I've met a few in this life. You can believe or disbelieve as you wish. It doesn't change the reality.
Palzang
I don't have any reason to be bitter. My teachers were wonderful people and I am grateful for all they taught me and for much more than I can go into in a post like this. Like I said, I left due to work and life - there was never an acrimonious split, unlike many of my friends from the group who had ugly bust ups after I'd left.
That said, all I have subsequently learned has prevented me from ever getting involved with that organization again and to be honest I've moved on as a person from that mindset.
I just feel that much of what the NKT gets flack for is endemic within the structure of Tibetan Buddhism. I've also had brief involvement with a Ole Nydahl group (Oh but not them! I hear you cry) but you see what I mean? - the list goes on and on. It troubles me that such great teachings are to be found within the context of a sectarian Punch and Judy show.
Why is this? The only reason I can see, is that these groups are mixing Dharma with other elements, thus causing many problems. I think westerners need to use a bit of discernment to avoid getting sucked into the mire.
Hi Palzang,
I wasn't going to bring tantra into it, but since you mentioned it then I'll address this point. I completely agree with what you say about the components 'not existing beyond oneself' and as you know, all mandalas contain protector deities amongst other things. So, why then use additional things "derived from the old animistic "spirits" of the Bon"?
HYT practices were transmitted as a complete package and need to be approached, as you indicated, within the knowledge that "They don't exist anywhere apart from oneself". HYT is only available to initiates but protector practices are foisted on everyone at all levels of ability. The sublime view you mentioned is not understood by the mass of people who reify these teachings and act upon them as if they were dealing with actual beings.
This causes fear, propitiation and action amongst those who labour under superstition - the consequences of which can be dire. There's a fine line between those who rest at peace in the deeper understanding of their practice and those who would grab a chicken (or other being) around its neck, because they think that Buddha tells them to!
Namaste
For what it is worth, from what I understand about this deity practice from Tibetan Buddhists who are, admittedly, biased against the NKT and Dolgyal Shugden in general, the controversy around Shugden centers around whether Shugden is a supermundane protector (dharmapala) or a wordly protector (lokapala).
NKT, along with some in the Gelug tradition, consider Shugden to be the former, i.e., a wisdom emanation of Manjushri, which would mean that this being is a proper object of refuge. Gelug, Sakya, Kagyu and Nyingma, on the other hand, consider Shugden to be the latter, and in particular, a "king spirit" (rgyal po), i.e., a mundane, pernicious spirit, which would mean that this being is not a proper object of refuge (source).
The real danger, critics say, lies in the fact that the minds of these "king spirits" are generally dominated by anger, jealousy and revenge (often due to their being the ghosts of skilled yogis who have died in violent circumstances, with great anger), and that they can "cause madness, cattle diseases, and generally bring dissension to sanghas" (source).
Nevertheless, whatever the truth of the matter is, I am content with taking the Buddha's own advice to "be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge" (DN 16).
Jason
I think that's correct. One man's dharmapala is another man's lokapala. I have never yet had a satisfactory explanation as to why the Tibetans feel the need to engage in worshiping any of these beings. Best left well alone IMHO. I have personally witnessed stuff, that I don't feel I can post in public, connected with these practices. I would honestly advise anyone to keep away from this sort of thing. Got it in one. The results of not doing so speak for themselves.
Namaste
All I know is that it is never a good thing to go around denigrating someone else's practice. If you don't want to do it, fine, don't. Nobody said you had to. But then at least please have the good manners not to criticize others who do. We have been taught that that is a very, very negative thing to do.
The problem with Dorje Shugden has nothing at all to do with whether he is a lokapala or a dharmapala. It has everything to do with the intention of the practitioners who practice it. We would never, ever do a practice for the purpose of suppressing other lineages! And that is what Dorje Shugden is all about. If you don't have a problem with that, then I don't know what to tell you.
Palzang
It seems to me that the problem you had with Tibetan Buddhism had more to do with the quality of the teachers than the quality of the teachings. Not much good can come from following a teacher motivated by gain and renown. It's like drinking water poured from a filthy pitcher. There are better and worse teachers in Tibetan Buddhism. I can't say from personal experience, but I'd be surprised if this is not also true in Theravadin Buddhism. The bottom line is find a teacher qualified through learning and realization and motivated by kindness, no matter what the tradition.
Hi fede,
Good advice from HH. It's easy to get swept up in the euphoria of something new and overlook this.
Namaste
It reminds me of my teacher..no words.
Aye, "no words" can sometimes help.
For other times there's thankfully newbuddhist.com.;)
Define "real". In the sense that there are many kind of beings incarnating in this world with varying levels of capacity and awareness, that these worldly beings may give temporal benefit to suffering beings and/or protect the dharma from opposition, that they may correspond to certain mental states or phenomena, I find this class of beings to be as real as you or I. In fact, a strong case can be made that they are *more* real than you or I as they persist longer and are effective across a much larger sphere of activity, even if only in the minds of practitioners.
I am not the most credulous of souls. I would readily admit that many Tibetans have an almost talismanic approach to elements of Buddhism, greedily seeking out blessings so that they can succeed in business, have a longer life to waste, etc. That does not invalidate that there are some very great mysteries such as this domain of tantric worship that can provide real temporal benefits to practitioners, protect sentient beings from disease, and in general act to help others. I believe this strongly and have ample evidence from my own experience to back it up. YMMV.
In this case of this particular pernicious spirit, the emphasis was always on the "purity" of the teachings. The foremost practitioners of it, such as Pabongka, actually encouraged monasteries under their control to attack other monasteries. For an account of this issue, I encourage anyone that can read Tibetan to read "A Rain of Adamantine Fire". This kind of fundamentalism, which is also encouraged by the NKT with their insistence on a very narrow lineage is antithetical to reason. It is unfortunate that this organization preys on so many Westerners that have no idea about the underlying issues. How sad!
These are not "additional things". The constellation of beings around the vajrayana dharma is not static. There are new beings entering the mandala all the time, just like there are new students coming all the time.
This does NOT mean that they are just a figment of one's imagination or simply an exteriorizing of a psychological principle. To think that of the yidams and dharmapalas would be a very grave mistake. This is a common superstition of western vajrayana students that I think accounts for the paucity of results that most attain. If you think that you are playing some elaborate mindgame, how will you ever see the infinite buddhagunas that manifest as the container and contents of all buddha mandalas?
I have found exactly the opposite to be the case. Very few teachers will give protector teachings to neophytes. In fact, most of this corpus of teachings is only given by lamas to other lamas. Most dharma students reify their own transactional world constantly... shouldn't we be more afraid of reifying our own constantly observed percepts with all of the negative consequences that brings than reifying some disembodied being?
There are far greater problems in the world caused by people superstitiously treating their ordinary workaday world as being substantial, effective and true than by a few fledgling practitioners believing in invisible beings. Think of all of the fear and neurotic behaviour we engage in all the time trying to enact ego desires. Anything that provokes beings to look with wonderment rather than apathy can't be all bad.
Cheers,
Namgyal
Thanks for the posts. I think, in effect, we are very close in our views around this topic. Hard to convey on posts like this but face to face it would be a different cup of tea. I'll endeavor to pick up a few things you mentioned.
Please, I'd rather not :-) but anyway...
Nicely put. I agree.
My comments about the native spirit issue were not intended to even go near tantra, as my own ideas about it defy any clear definition. Tantra by its very nature acts at all levels - those we actively comprehend and those we don't. I believe it when you say you have evidence - I do too. No need to convince me.
Indeed.
Perhaps, but it depends to some extent on how we perceive the mandala. For my money, it is all-encompassing but there is, I feel, a danger of losing focus if we don't draw a line somewhere. I tend to think that if the mahasiddhas transmitted it, then that's more than enough for me. The practice, of that alone, is utterly profound and addresses the three bodies in their entirety. I still fail to see why some practitioners divert energy into propitiating worldly spirits, like Shugden when there is enough in any HYT mandala? How much more protection does one need? For me it smacks of gain and betterment, of grasping for that which is not attained and repulsing that which is undesired. When the contemplative moves through Jhana, this has to be dropped. That's just my genuine experience.
Fine by me if others do it their way - no probs. I just dislike the mud slinging back and forth, as I mentioned.
No, I didn't mean that at all.
That's good. Alas not the case in the NKT where there is little opportunity to avoid worship of their protector. All members are put under pressure to do it.
Well said. Still, it's not good to impose superstition on people (not saying you advocate this - just a general point). I've seen it done and the results are not pretty. Many of my ex-NKT friends have suffered as a result. Yes, it's the NKT but much of what I've read by the orthodox on E-Sangha does not differ in the slightest from the stuff I was told by them. I know this may be hard for anyone to credit (and others may be insulted, which is not my intention) but there is not much difference when you look at what Kelsang writes and other lamas write on these subjects.
I concede that the NKT is run like a cult and I don't consider it my job to defend them, as I'm sure 99% of stuff said about them is correct. But we shouldn't ignore the wider picture or leave our powers of discrimination outside the gompa door as it's this attitude which has allowed things to get so bad within the NKT (general point again :-).
Namaste
Although I don't understand everything you guys are talking about I'm enjoying reading your posts because this is how a discussion of these issues should go, in my humble opinion. Polite, respectful, honest, no sarcasm or ego b.s., and just plain cool. When people discuss things in this way it makes it so much easier to learn. Thank you both. I appreciate the way you're communicating.