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The Soul and the Afterlife?
comicallyinsane
Veteran
Okay after reading different posts on the existence of the soul or the whatever you want to call ourselves after we die. The question I pose is this.
If there is no afterlife in any way, shape, or form then why bother? Why not go into a life of crime and be as greedy as possible. Sure it is all left behind but at least have tons of fun at the moment. Why bother following the path?
I myself believe there has to be something. Otherwise I can't see any point to anything. If there isn't anything more than this life I myself am off to make as money as possible to hell with any spirituality.
If there is no afterlife in any way, shape, or form then why bother? Why not go into a life of crime and be as greedy as possible. Sure it is all left behind but at least have tons of fun at the moment. Why bother following the path?
I myself believe there has to be something. Otherwise I can't see any point to anything. If there isn't anything more than this life I myself am off to make as money as possible to hell with any spirituality.
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Comments
From my personal experience: I don't know what the point of life is. I don't even know if there is a point. Regardless if there is or isn't a point I still want to enjoy myself, be a good person because I do not like hurting others, and experience what I can. I experienced drugs, crime, and selfishness. Those things did not bring me happiness. So, I discovered the Buddha's teachings and saw the benefits of his practice. It doesn't matter what happens after I die as long as I do the best I can right here, right now.
The problem is not whether or not there is a point, it's that you "want" there to be a point.
That "want" is what causes me so much unhappiness. I want my life to be for a reason. I want to have "good things" happen to me when I die for putting up with all the "bad things" I have to experience. I really want an afterlife. And this want is a cause, which is a cause for wrong views, craving, and ...... dukkha. (This is describing my own feelings and not trying to be sarcastic. This is a personal problem I face within my Buddhist practice. As of yet I do not have an answer, but it doesn't stop me from looking for one.)
I follow this Path for one simple reason. I want to be free from dukkha.
Although I see no evidence of reincarnation in the sense that your "soul" moves on after death, I do see that my actions cause ripples that will affect others long after my death.
If I were to become a thief then I would raise the crime rate of the society my children are growing up in. Not long ago people could sleep with their doors unlocked. A single criminal or criminal act did not cause this feeling of security to be lost. Everyone who committed a crime like theft or burglary in the past contributed to the community's change in security. A man who committed a burglary/rape thirty years ago has contributed to his daughter clutching a can of mace as she walks through a parking lot at night in the present.
We should not need the promise of virgins in the afterlife to do the right thing.
This is an ethical response!
Jason, the promise/threat of an afterlife judgment does not appear to have improved human behaviour. Ethical behaviour is not limited to "believers" - some would even say that "faith" militates against genuinely ethical action.
"It little matters whether Heaven actually exists or not; the important thing is to live life as if it did."
That's the random quote that I just saw on the NewBuddhist homepage. I think it kinda applies here. *nodnod*
"Research" into the "existence" of "God". Three terms that need defining:
By research, do you mean setting up a hypothseis and then experiments to adduce evidence for or against the hypothesis? I should be interested in any evidence that is anything more than personal and anecdotal.
By existence, do you mean something that has independent, non-contingent existence? As I understand it, most people who believe in "God" also believe that "God" is not dependent. If, however, this existence is of a non-dependent type, then the Buddhist theory of dependent co-arising must be ditched.
Finally, and most importantly, what is meant by "God"? If a Supreme Being, Creator of all that is, is meant then I need to go back to my first question. Are we speaking of some self-aware being? If so, how is it not dependent?
Additionally, I cannot see why this "God" has anything to do with what happens after death. Linking the two is one of the clever sleights of hand that organised religion has practised for millennia - doesn't make it true.
As far as I can see, "God" is a useful black box into which people can put whatever questions appear to be without answer.
Now, if we were speaking of 'deities', as dependent as you or I, , or of the boddhisattvas, it is a different matter.
I have read that "reincarnation or rebirth" is actually a Western thought process. Beliefs in India dealt with something like, "ending the suffering of rebirth". It's most a Western idea of "being able to come back as something else" or "to live forever".
That could be the chains that someone dreamt up to help enslave humanity with ideas of "reward" or "punishment". Do these things and you will get an eternal reward. Do these things and you will burn forever.
I think it's just a different mindset most Westerners have been brought up and raised in.
Although for myself, when I was a Christian, I could never really grasp the idea that "if we serve a loving God - a God that loves humanity - why would he want those that didn't follow him to burn for eternity in Hell or live in Purgatory?" That doesn't seem like "love" - that seems very cruel and monstrous.
Michael
If you aaaert the 'existence' of this something, it is surely incumbent on you to prove its existence rather than up to others to prove it does not. I may like to believe in the existence of unicorns but I must prove it to you before you will believe. I have never seen a subatomic particle but there is more than adequate evidence for them.
I recall hearing Bertam Russell being asked what he would do if, at death, he discovered that he had been wrong and that there actually is a "God". He replied, "I would say: 'God! You are a shoddy fellow. You never gave us adequate proof of your existence.'"
Also I don't want this forum to turn into e-sangha where everyone argues about nothing. I am not a member over there but I hear about a lot of fighting.
I didn't mean any offense.
I think I like you better when you ask tough questions. It makes it a little easier for a newbie to ask questions.
I still haven't come to grips with Buddhism and Christianity. I have been reading some books like "Buddhism without Beliefs" that covers Buddhism for the aetheist.
I really don't see why a person couldn't come to grips with the fact that there is Buddhism and there is a God - even a Christian God if you wish. In fact, I think it could be quite easy because I don't think the two are inherently opposite to each other. In fact, one could even go as far as to say that being a Buddhist could make one more intent on lack of anger, more humility, more love and compassion, etc.
Again, I think it's something you have to come to grips with. Buddha make it well known that he was just a man. Buddha also stated "God has no religion" (I believe) - and religion is a man-made thing - and that's what sucks about religion.
If you are a Christian - the Bible even says that "God's ways are as far apart from Man's as the east is from the west." Yet!, we still rely upon men and women to tell us what God wants.
Michael
I appear to have stated my views in such a way as to have crossed a line.
This was far from my intention (but we all know about Hell and good intentions!) I would therefore offer my apologies to all who were upset when they read what I wrote.
My aim, as it is in my own search and pilgrimage, was to clarify the real problem that exists when trying to reconcile the Western view of a personal God who is also a uncreated Supreme Being and Creator. It runs clean contrary to the basic teachings of the Dharma so that we are confronted with terrible problems of integrating contradictory world-views.
Jason, I certainly did not write in order to shut anybody up. I was simply challenging the assumptions that non-believers can be challenged to 'prove' their unbelief. Mind you, I don't think that it is possible to prove the existence of such a non-contingent Being, either.
If, however, an individual, on their own journey, encounters such a one and has adequate evidence for themselves, they have fulfilled the Buddha's instruction to take nothing on faith but to verify every statement for themselves. If they can, thereafter, as a result of such an awareness, empower others to arrive personally at such a belief, they need to do so.
BUT (and it's a big "BUT") belief in a Supreme Creator cannot simply be asserted, any more than we assert even the Four Noble Truths: they are there to be tested by each practitioner. That, IMHO, is why they build on each other. We may want to believe that the Noble Eighfold PAth is the way to release ourselves from dukkha but it will only be faith until we experiment with it ourselves. And we shall not do that with a complete attention unless we have first realised that we suffer and that we are the authors of our suffering.
I apologise again if my earlier post was couched in too serious a tone. The matter of Supreme Being is, to my mind, the single most divisive and blood-shedding aspect of Western religions.
The Buddha refused to speak of such a one, saying that he had never met one. Perhaps I should follow his example. Such beliefs are personal and dear to those who hold them. To criticise them was as unskillful as criticising a child to its loving parent.
Finally, @Jason, being wrong is something that I major in, dear friend, and I was wrong here - again!
First off thank you for the apologies. I accept them.
The bad thing is that I don't think I will be posting much on any serious subjects anymore. I am a firm believer that one shouldn't read much on any philosophy. I feel it mucks up the person's own ideas. The person or people who created a certain philosophy didn't have anything more than their thoughts and experiences. I may not always have the same views as a lot of people here but that is me. I have been acused of not being serious, not being humble enough, being just way out in left field so to speak , and some other things when the truth is that I have always been honest with the things I have said here. This thread was started to ask these questions about the soul and the afterlife. I keep getting people telling me that there is no soul and there is no God and there is no afterlife. But everyone has the same proof that people on the opposite end of the scale do. None at all. I feel I have only voiced my personal views and I have asked questions and it seems like I have been ganged up on a little bit. Like I said before. A lot of people here seem to be looking for a reason for God not to exist. Here I am not even worrying whether God exists. Someone asked me to convince them and I was trying to ask and then I was put down for it. Sure you guys didn't mean it but the whole thing I was trying to do was lost in it all.
That's just how I feel about all this. I have said my peace and now I will leave it at that.
I hope you all find the answers you are looking for.
Buddha never spoke about God. It was Mahatma Gandhi who said that quote
Michael
Good point, Elohim.
That's about where I'm at.
I've done and said things in my life where I wished I hadn't. Not that they've been "bad" per se, but they weren't positive. Just saying a hurtful, callous remark - there are plenty of those I wished I'd never said. And when I think back on them, they are not a cause for happiness.
I have thought at times what it would be like to have done horrible things or even just mean, uncaring things - and then thinking back on them when you're older - close to dying.
I don't want ugliness, hurt, lack of compassion, and being friendless to be the legacy of my life. I don't want a life built on lies and physical or emotional pain. Whether it's karma or whatever - I want a life of enlightenment, peace, compassion and love to be my legacy.
Michael