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What the current crisis teaches us about capitalism or Why I'm not a libertarian

JasonJason God EmperorArrakis Moderator
edited July 2010 in Buddhism Today
(A review of past thoughts on the economic crisis one year later.)

From my perspective, the current economic crisis reinforces the idea that, barring a revolutionary economic transformation, capitalism needs to be regulated in order to prevent, or at the very least limit, the exploitation of labour, the negative effects of externalities and, of course, economic crises. The current financial crisis itself could've been avoided, and, using them as an example, so could AIG's near failure.

It's rather complicated to explain exactly what happened with AIG, but the bottom line is that AIG's financial sector was paid by investment companies to back up securities that were in turn backed by pieces of mortgages. AIG effectively promised to make up the difference if the investments failed. So where did they go wrong?

It seems that AIG, thanks in part to Gary Gorton, the finance professor who designed AIG's risk models, figured that being paid to take on these risks was "free money" because they never thought they'd have to make any payments to cover actual defaults. What they apparently didn't take into consideration, however, was the potential write-downs or collateral payments to trading partners (How AIG Failed). But specific regulations dealing with these securities and mortgage default swaps could've possibly prevented all of this. This is where both the company and the government failed.

David Swensen, the person who's credited with creating derivatives or "swaps," eventually paved the way for an entire industry to be built around creating and trading derivatives based on mortgage payments of homeowners (Inventor of the "Swap" blames regulators for Financial Crisis). In the case of AIG, they basically insured these mortgage-backed securities. But the government was seemingly reluctant to regulate these derivatives and the industries that had developed around them, and traders eventually abused them to the point of financial collapse. Part of this was due to the perceived benefit of these swaps by people like former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan. As Bob Moon notes, "... he called credit default swaps "probably the most important instrument in finance," because they were supposed to spread risk around and stabilize the market" (Banks deep into unregulated 'gambling').

The sad fact is that stricter regulations and oversight on the part of the government, plus more transparency and less greed on the part of financial institutions, could've prevented much of this from happening, including what happened with AIG. Swensen himself says that he supports "requiring swaps and other derivatives to be traded openly on an exchange" since it'd reduce the risk, but surprisingly, this very proposal was "torpedoed by both the Clinton and Bush administrations." Why? Swenson theorizes that, "Financial institutions that deal in these things have resisted that because it would make the market more transparent and less profitable" (Inventor of the "Swap" blames regulators for Financial Crisis).

That's why I'm convinced that, at the very least, the U.S. must adopt an economic model similar to those that have taken shape in Europe — with a mixture of capitalist and socialist aspects — out of sheer pragmatism.

For example, in a broader context, I've found some of Karl Kautsky's concerns regarding the drawbacks and weak points of the capitalist system amazingly prescient, especially in regard to commerce and credit, although the fact that he was decidedly biased against it seems to have blinded him to the potential ability of future generations to solve some of these problems. Nevertheless, I've found many his arguments against the capitalist method of production to be rather strong, even eye-opening.

The beginning of chapter three of Kautsky's The Class Struggle, for example, provides a simple yet excellent overview of the main causes contributing to the current world-wide economic crisis. In regard to credit, he notes that, "Credit is ... much more sensitive than commerce to any disturbance. Every shock it receives is felt throughout the economic organization" (47). Besides making a strong argument for why this type of system makes it increasingly more difficult for small production (e.g., small farmers, small business owners, etc.) to succeed, he stresses that this credit based system ultimately renders modern industry "more and more complicated and liable to disturbance, to carry the feeling of uncertainty into the ranks of the capitalists themselves and to make the ground upon which they move ever more uncertain" (48).

But the type of careful direction that is needed to insure the uninterrupted operation of this modern system of production is hindered by the very institution of private property on which it is founded. As Kautsky summarizes: "While the several industries become, in point of fact, more and more dependent upon one another, in point of law, they remain wholly independent. The means of production in every single industry are private property; their owner can do with them as he pleases" (50-1).

So for these reasons, among others, it's apparent to me that to be able to effectively manage a world-wide, credit based economy, a certain amount of outside interference is unavoidable because without a certain amount of intervention, whether in the form of stricter regulations and oversight or outright nationalization, the market system is extremely vulnerable to abuse, disruption, etc.
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Comments

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2009
    A related article from the Boston Globe: "Why capitalism fails."
  • edited September 2009
    Lurking behind all of this hand-wringing and the movements of untold billions of dollars (and pounds, yen, yuans, euros, etc) are two ugly truths that no one seems to want to address.

    1. Money is a lie.

    Once upon a time the paper we carried around in our purses and wallets represented gold, silver and copper that was held in the Federal Reserve and guarneteed so that the paper we consider so valuble was backed by something that insured this was indeed the case. But the paper we call "money" only has value because we say it does...ultimately money is meaningless ink on paper that has "no value but the name" quoth the Bard.

    2. Capitalism needs cheap labor to function.

    As long as people are willing to see no connection between cheap items and the virtual slaves that must make them for nearly non-existant wages, capitalism will always be a morally bankrupt enterprise that at the very least is a beast which cannot ever be fed to the point of satiation (sounds like Dukkha to me). The factories in China, Bangladesh, Mexico, and dozens of other countries are slave pits as horrible as anything imagined by Charles Dickens...and this is where all the cheap stuff we get from Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, Big Lots, Sears, JC Penny, and countless other retailers comes from.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2009
    Validus wrote: »
    Lurking behind all of this hand-wringing and the movements of untold billions of dollars (and pounds, yen, yuans, euros, etc) are two ugly truths that no one seems to want to address.

    1. Money is a lie.

    Once upon a time the paper we carried around in our purses and wallets represented gold, silver and copper that was held in the Federal Reserve and guarneteed so that the paper we consider so valuble was backed by something that insured this was indeed the case. But the paper we call "money" only has value because we say it does...ultimately money is meaningless ink on paper that has "no value but the name" quoth the Bard.

    2. Capitalism needs cheap labor to function.

    As long as people are willing to see no connection between cheap items and the virtual slaves that must make them for nearly non-existant wages, capitalism will always be a morally bankrupt enterprise that at the very least is a beast which cannot ever be fed to the point of satiation (sounds like Dukkha to me). The factories in China, Bangladesh, Mexico, and dozens of other countries are slave pits as horrible as anything imagined by Charles Dickens...and this is where all the cheap stuff we get from Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, Big Lots, Sears, JC Penny, and countless other retailers comes from.

    Oh I'm more than willing to address the exploitation of labour. :D
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Hey Jason! I trust you are well.

    Greetings to you, too, Validus! It's always nice to see a new and pleasant face.

    Firstoff, I must admit I've never read Karl Kautsky. That said, I do agree with what I've understood him to mean. Obviously, the role of cash on hand isn't what it was a hundred years ago and is likely to diminish further. The Two Big Players now have to be the "Owners" and the Government.

    The former "owners" of the capitalist systems must erelong let go of their Squiredoms and become caretakers. (Here I speak of the super-rich dynasties and the banks and huge corporations.) The world cannot much longer bear to be broken into groups of "Owners" and "non-owners." A democratization of economic affairs must pass in which the medieval squire's prerogatives will not outweigh the interests of his village, even to its detriment and demise. In future, surely, no Heir will be able to claim all that was held in private trust a generation or two before him as his unique possession.
    Jason wrote: »
    quoting Kautsky
    "Credit is ... much more sensitive than commerce to any disturbance. Every shock it receives is felt throughout the economic organization" (47). Besides making a strong argument for why this type of system makes it increasingly more difficult for small production (e.g., small farmers, small business owners, etc.) to succeed, he stresses that this credit based system ultimately renders modern industry "more and more complicated and liable to disturbance, to carry the feeling of uncertainty into the ranks of the capitalists themselves and to make the ground upon which they move ever more uncertain" (48).
    ——from the beginning of chapter three The Class Struggle

    It seems that industry doth indeed need government to intervene more proactively than ever with banks and financiers. The articles that you provide links for, Jason, scare me. Stephen Mihm in The Boston Globe and the editorial in the S F Gate speak of a certain temerity to do anything about these matters right now. Such timidity or reluctance would truly be unfounded. I don't understand. Most people I know have had up to two-thirds of their retirement funds wiped out and up.

    The principal function of government is to protect life and property, and by so doing to establish justice and concord in the land. I don't think that objective is being weighed with all due urgency here.
  • bushinokibushinoki Veteran
    edited September 2009
    True free market capitalism is an utter failure. A free market Health Care system will leave those without a good job hurting. And you can now imagine what I'll look like when I get home from this war, bandana on my head, unkempt hair and beard, joint hanging out of my mouth, saying "I've seen some S***, and done some S***, man".

    We need a system in place that guarantees you'll not be bankrupted because you broke your arm, and that you have a decent job that pays the bills. I'll take that hard left turn now.
  • BrigidBrigid Veteran
    edited September 2009
    bushinoki wrote: »
    We need a system in place that guarantees you'll not be bankrupted because you broke your arm, and that you have a decent job that pays the bills. I'll take that hard left turn now.
    I couldn't agree more, Bushi.

    Good to hear from you, by the way. :)
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2009
    Brigid wrote: »
    I couldn't agree more, Bushi.

    Good to hear from you, by the way. :)

    Same here.
  • edited September 2009
    bushinoki wrote: »
    True free market capitalism is an utter failure. A free market Health Care system will leave those without a good job hurting.

    ...or dead.:nonono:
  • bushinokibushinoki Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Nirvy, sorry, didn't mean to skip you in the reply. The former owners of the capitalist system deserve to be tried for treason, and upon conviction, imprisoned for life for what they've done to the world.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited September 2009
    They're already imprisoned, Bushi, in samsara. What could be worse than that?

    Palzang
  • edited September 2009
    Palzang wrote: »
    They're already imprisoned, Bushi, in samsara. What could be worse than that?

    Palzang

    I lived in Boonville, Missouri for 4 years once...I'd say that's worse.:D
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Why would you think it's different?

    Palzang
  • edited September 2009
    Palzang wrote: »
    Why would you think it's different?

    Palzang

    What could be worse then being in both samsara and Missouri?:lol:
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Well, it's not called Misery for nothin'

    Palzang
  • bushinokibushinoki Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Pally, being stripped of all their material wealth, and then forced to live by the whims of another. See how they like it.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2009
    The views here are heavily American. The USA is a nation of excesses. Too much wealth in the hands of too few leads to economic imbalance. In other words, too much money does not get spent and therefore does not recirculate in the system.

    In Australia, we have always done fine regarding 'capitalism'. The government has always regulated the system and there has always been plenty to go round (until recently, as imbalance has slowly crept into the system over the last 20 years).

    Money is fine. It is neutral as long as it is a measure of economic output and the tangible goods and services exchanged. The gold standard and such are not necessary. How silly. Gold and silver do not represent genuine economic activity.

    For example, how can gold represent the trade between the USA and China. Where would we find all the gold?

    The American problem is that of borrowing & printing money, especially for foreign exchange. I heard a plausable theory (not sure of the facts) that the USA was required to invade Iraq because Saddam Hussein was going to trade Iraqi oil in Euros. As such, the USA would not be able to merely print money to buy oil. They would have to actually trade with Europe to obtain FX.

    These problems are American problems, where folks are used to living beyond their means in rampant excess, through printing and borrowing money.

    American debt = $X trillion.

    Chinese savings and debtors = $Y trillion.

    :)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2009

    The obstacles that prevent us from keeping up with the rest of the world in providing for ourselves are actually caused by ideas we think are up-to-date, for – who knows? – ‘up-to-date’ here may mean up-to-date in terms of the origin of suffering, that is the view that we can get away with earning just a little and spending a lot.
    If instead we try to follow the path indicated by the Noble Truths our earnings are sure to grow day by day, our behaviour will know its proper bounds, our expenditures will fall more in line with our position, our tendency towards extravagance – our way of seeing every purchase as necessary – will start to have principles to keep it in check, and our income – whatever its amount – will have a chance to stop and rest with us for a while.
    We’ll come to realise that our desire to keep up with others in terms of buying things is the way to disaster because it destroys both our external wealth and our good habits, which are a form of wealth far more important than any other wealth in the world. If our good habits get spoiled because of our lack of thought for the present and future, we’ll never have a chance
    to make anything of ourselves at all.

    The Noble Truths of Family Life: Venerable Ācariya Mahā Boowa

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Anana Sutta: Debtless

    Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "There are these four kinds of bliss that can be attained in the proper season, on the proper occasions, by a householder partaking of sensuality. Which four? The bliss of having, the bliss of [making use of] wealth, the bliss of debtlessness, the bliss of blamelessness.

    "And what is the bliss of having? There is the case where the son of a good family has wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained. When he thinks, 'I have wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of having.

    "And what is the bliss of [making use of] wealth? There is the case where the son of a good family, using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained, partakes of his wealth and makes merit. When he thinks, 'Using the wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained, I partake of wealth and make merit,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of [making use of] wealth.

    "And what is the bliss of debtlessness? There is the case where the son of a good family owes no debt, great or small, to anyone at all. When he thinks, 'I owe no debt, great or small, to anyone at all,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of debtlessness.

    "And what is the bliss of blamelessness? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with blameless bodily kamma, blameless verbal kamma, blameless mental kamma. When he thinks, 'I am endowed with blameless bodily kamma, blameless verbal kamma, blameless mental kamma,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of blamelessness.

    "These are the four kinds of bliss that can be attained in the proper season, on the proper occasions, by a householder partaking of sensuality."

    Knowing the bliss of debtlessness, & recollecting the bliss of having, enjoying the bliss of wealth, the mortal then sees clearly with discernment. Seeing clearly — the wise one — he knows both sides: that these are not worth one sixteenth-sixteenth of the bliss of blamelessness.

    Anana Sutta

  • bushinokibushinoki Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Dhamma, many of us here are Americans. And it's actually not as simple as you make it out to be. Entire aspects of our economic system were created out of nothing to create the need for us to be employed, whereby we are subjugated to a system. What happened over the last 20 years was the result of an underregulated and unfair economic system.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Validus wrote: »
    2. Capitalism needs cheap labor to function.
    The Buddha himself basically taught capitalism or free enterprise. As such, he must have held the view such as system could work if managed correctly.

    The alternative is communism, which history has shown stunts human initiative. Where there is no individual initiative, there is little progress towards enlightenment.
    The wise and virtuous shine like a blazing fire.
    He who acquires his wealth in harmless ways
    like to a bee that honey gathers,
    riches mount up for him
    like ant hill's rapid growth.

    With wealth acquired this way,
    a layman fit for household life,
    in portions four divides his wealth:
    thus will he friendship win.

    One portion for his wants he uses,
    two portions on his business spends,
    the fourth for times of need he keeps.


    "In five ways should a master minister to his servants and employees as the Nadir:

    (i) by assigning them work according to their ability,
    (ii) by supplying them with food and with wages,
    (iii) by tending them in sickness,
    (iv) by sharing with them any delicacies [special profits],
    (v) by granting them leave at times.

    "The servants and employees thus ministered to as the Nadir by their master show their compassion to him in five ways:

    (i) they rise before him,
    (ii) they go to sleep after him,
    (iii) they take only what is given,
    (iv) they perform their duties well,
    (v) they uphold his good name and fame.

    Sigalovada Sutta
  • bushinokibushinoki Veteran
    edited September 2009
    There is something we're overlooking here. and that is the difference between Agrarian Capitalism vs. Industrial Capitalism. In the absence of slavery, an agrarian society can function as capitalist so long as there is no outside influence. Modern society needs more regulation than the founding fathers of our nation did, due to the fact that we are a consumer industrial society.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2009
    bushinoki wrote: »
    Dhamma, many of us here are Americans. And it's actually not as simple as you make it out to be. Entire aspects of our economic system were created out of nothing to create the need for us to be employed, whereby we are subjugated to a system. What happened over the last 20 years was the result of an underregulated and unfair economic system.
    Hi Bushinoki

    I am not saying there is an easy solution. I hear where you are coming from.

    Indeed. The current economic disaster arose from an underregulated and unfair economic system.

    It appears as a civilisation, the USA has peaked and a little 'shrinkage' is the inevitable path.

    Kind regards

    DDhatu

    :)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2009
    bushinoki wrote: »
    Modern society needs more regulation than the founding fathers of our nation did, due to the fact that we are a consumer industrial society.
    I agree. That is why I mentioned the Australian model. There are also many European models of social democracy.

    Government regulation is fine. As I said, Australia is fine.

    I have heard American advocates of total free markets (eg. Peter Schiff), who blame govt for the current crisis.

    Govt corruption rather than govt per se is probably the cause of the current crisis.

    Genuine govt supervision works fine.

    My impression of the little I have seen of American govt is it is each man for himself or his vested interest.

    For example, in Australia we have two political parties which stick to a party agenda whereas in the USA, I notice each individual senator or congressman pushing their own individual cause (with no party consensus).

    It seems strange and disorderly to me.

    :)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2009
    The wise and virtuous shine like a blazing fire.
    He who acquires his wealth in harmless ways
    like to a bee that honey gathers,
    riches mount up for him
    like ant hill's rapid growth.


    I wonder if capitalism (a modern economic system which did not exist in the Buddha's time) can be called harmless. Both ant and bee are part of a strictly hierarchical structure far closer to feudalism. As has been noted, until the 19th century, chattel slavery was the basis for the wealth of the few. It is the progressive abolition of slavery, despite attempts to replace it in the capitalist system by wage slavery, that convinces me that human society is capable of improvement.

    I find it worrying that we appear to have forgotten the disastrous effect of the Western defeat in Vietnam: stagflation, unemployment, depression. We appear to be condemned, having forgotten this, to repeat it.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2009
    It is the progressive abolition of slavery, despite attempts to replace it in the capitalist system by wage slavery, that convinces me that human society is capable of improvement.
    Simon

    When I grew up in Australia in the 1970's, there was not a community feeling of deficiency and everything we required we had. We were taught at school 'egalitarianism' defines the Australian culture.

    This changed markedly during the 1990's, with 'greed is good' and the 'haves and have nots'.

    Thus, human society is indeed capable of improvement.

    US society evolved from masters who practised slavery whereas Australian society evolved from the slaves or convincts themselves who shunted excess.

    I find it worrying that we appear to have forgotten the disastrous effect of the Western defeat in Vietnam: stagflation, unemployment, depression. We appear to be condemned, having forgotten this, to repeat it.

    Indeed. Iraq and Afganistan have caused economic disaster for the USA. Trouble with Iran will likely be the end for the USA (just like Britain was bankrupt after WWII).

    :)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2009
    Simon

    ..............

    US society evolved from masters who practised slavery whereas Australian society evolved from the slaves or convincts themselves who shunted excess.


    .....................

    :)


    Societies' 'myths of origin' have always fascinated me. Australia and Israel are, as far as I can see, exceptions to the norm which looks to heroic figures as forebears, whether demi-gods or actual deities - and I include the sanctified 'Founding Fathers' of the USA. Israel prides itself on a slave origin in Egypt and Australia claims its beginnings as Britain's 19th century gulag.

    I'm not sure what percentage of Australia's population is actually descended from convicts - smaller and smaller, I imagine, with all the 20th century immigration. But then, of course, the same situation exists in the US with descendants of the 'Pilgrims' and in the UK with Norman families.
  • edited November 2009
    The current crisis is not a product of capitalism or free markets.

    I should come out and first say that I am a libertarian.

    At any rate, we haven't had anything resembling capitalism or free markets. The current crisis was caused, as all economic downturns are, by a central planner, be it a government or central bank, manipulating interest rates. When interest rates are kept artificially low this sends false signals to entrepreneurs and leads to malinvestment. When the market seeks to correct these imbalances that is the recession, and the recession is necessary to reallocate resources to where they're genuinely required. On a free market interest rates would go down as savings go up, and interest rates would go up as savings went down. That is the type of system we need. But that won't happen as long as government bails out those who need to fail, and allows the banks to continue their policy of fractional reserve banking which is nothing more than fraud.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    You're right, the current crisis was caused by corruption. Libertarianism was just one of the ideologies used to justify the willful ignorance which enabled that corruption.

    But libertarianism will always be used that way, because it's a utopian ideal which is impossible to fully achieve, and any partial achievement of it is ipso facto unstable.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2009
    So, Kevin, you're saying a system based on pure, unadulterated greed with no checks would be preferable?

    Palzang
  • edited November 2009
    fivebells wrote: »
    You're right, the current crisis was caused by corruption. Libertarianism was just one of the ideologies used to justify the willful ignorance which enabled that corruption.

    But libertarianism will always be used that way, because it's a utopian ideal which is impossible to fully achieve, and any partial achievement of it is ipso facto unstable.

    I'm afraid that's absolutely incorrect. There were no libertarians in any position of power to add to the crisis. I'm afraid you need to look at the progressives and neoconservatives that have been in power over the last 100 years for the corruption in government. Also, the Federal Reserve, which is the institution responsible for the crisis, is an anti-libertarian institution.
  • edited November 2009
    Palzang wrote: »
    So, Kevin, you're saying a system based on pure, unadulterated greed with no checks would be preferable?

    Palzang

    No, the market is capable of regulating itself. The only role government should be playing in the market is enforcing contracts and prosecuting fraud.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Kevin wrote: »
    I'm afraid that's absolutely incorrect. There were no libertarians in any position of power to add to the crisis.
    "My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years," he says, "to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."
  • edited November 2009
    Norquist is not a libertarian, he's a conservative. On top of that, he's not held any elected office to be responsible for the crisis. Though he did work to get George W. Bush elected, who is certainly more than a little responsible for this recession. However, as I said before, the Federal Reserve is the most responsible for their manipulation of interest rates.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2009
    Kevin wrote: »
    No, the market is capable of regulating itself. The only role government should be playing in the market is enforcing contracts and prosecuting fraud.

    Right, monopolies and cartels could never form in a free market; free markets prevent excessive pollution and negative externalities (just like in Somalia where companies are free to dump their toxic waste); and a free market is never prone to abuse and corruption because it "regulates itself" as if by magic! Just look at how well the market regulates itself when it comes to bluefin tuna in the Mediterranean.

    According to libertarians, the decreasing supply of tuna will make it more expensive for consumers, who will buy less, thereby singling the fishing industry to catch less. It's great in theory until you realize that the price single doesn't work because people with money who want tuna will still pay for it at the higher market prices, which means higher profits for the fishers, etc.

    In the end, the elevated prices offset any potential decline in demand, and the people who make a living off of catching fish won't just stop fishing while there's still a profit to be made (even more so when their catch is worth more), which, if left unchecked, will eventually result in a "tragedy of the commons."
  • edited November 2009
    Jason wrote: »
    Right, monopolies and cartels could never form in a free market; free markets prevent excessive pollution and negative externalities (just like in Somalia where companies are free to dump their toxic waste); and a free market is never prone to abuse and corruption because it "regulates itself" as if by magic! Just look at how well the market regulates itself when it comes to bluefin tuna in the Mediterranean.

    According to libertarians, the decreasing supply of tuna will make it more expensive for consumers, who will buy less, thereby singling the fishing industry to catch less. It's great in theory until you realize that the price single doesn't work because people with money who want tuna will still pay for it at the higher market prices, which means higher profits for the fishers, etc.

    In the end, the elevated prices offset any potential decline in demand, and the people who make a living off of catching fish won't just stop fishing while there's still a profit to be made (even more so when their catch is worth more), which, if left unchecked, will eventually result in a "tragedy of the commons."

    Monopolies don't form on the free market. Monopolies are a product of government policies. People dump their toxic waste in Somalia in non-private owned property because it doesn't matter. When there is enforceable private property then there is no incentive to dump toxic waste, otherwise you suffer the consequences.

    Here's an article that exposes the "tragedy of the commons" and even uses a fish example.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/alston/alston57.1.html
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited November 2009
    Kevin wrote: »
    At any rate, we haven't had anything resembling capitalism or free markets.

    Ah, the No true Scotsman fallacy. I try using this argument all the time when it comes to socialism, but it doesn't work for me either. :D
    The current crisis was caused, as all economic downturns are, by a central planner, be it a government or central bank, manipulating interest rates. When interest rates are kept artificially low this sends false signals to entrepreneurs and leads to malinvestment. When the market seeks to correct these imbalances that is the recession, and the recession is necessary to reallocate resources to where they're genuinely required. On a free market interest rates would go down as savings go up, and interest rates would go up as savings went down. That is the type of system we need. But that won't happen as long as government bails out those who need to fail, and allows the banks to continue their policy of fractional reserve banking which is nothing more than fraud.

    All economic systems sound great in theory, but we somehow manage to fuck them up regardless. Free market capitalism is no different in this regard than communism.

    You make a lot of good points, Kevin, but I'm afraid that I don't see how an unrestricted market is going to solve all our economic troubles. In fact, I can see how they could potentially make them worse. The idea that some invisible market force will skillfully guide our greed into a utopia is just as bad as the idea that some central authority will do the same.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Jason wrote: »
    Ah, the No true Scotsman fallacy. I try using this argument all the time when it comes to socialism, but it doesn't work for me either. :D

    .......................

    As an argument, it is both unanswerable and annoying! It's a favourite of the canting section of atheism which loudly defines God for the believers and then 'proves' its/his/her/their non-existence. Or else, here less than elsewhere, we get the "you're not a real Buddhist" argument.

    I think this rather weakens your points, Kevin. The truth is, surely, that there cannot be a single causa for the crisis, any more than there can be for a war, even if there is an identifiable casus. There is an inbuilt complcation to all that is which moves inevitably towards impermanence and change. Some have seen this as 'entropy', an unstoppable movement towards heat-death and stasis. Teilhard de Chardin sees it as a salvific journey towards the Omega Point. Both views, pessimistic and optimistic, acknowledge the reality of "change and decay in all around I see".

    A bare knowledge of history shows us that collapse is built into every socio-economic system. In each case, since the regular pre-industrial recessions of the Egyptian and Roman Empires have been ascribed to many different causes. None seems to me convincing when they centre on systems or ideologies. The true causes are to be found in the interaction between human beings and the world around them. Every economic collapse, as far as I can see, has accompanied ecological danger, on a principle of "as above, so below" (cf. A Midsummer Night's Dream) and is associated with greed, grasping and growing inequalities within society. By blaming systems (feudal, free market, Pharaonic, Republican, neo-con, Puritan, Catholic, e tutti quanti) we can excuse ourselves and our individual responsibility one to another and, all together, to the world we inhabit.

    Nor is it coincidental that this crisis occurs while we are at war. Economy is not simply about money, it is, essentially, a socio-psychological myth structure entirely dependent on general acceptance of the metaphoric as reality, a suit of new clothes for the Emperor. We are surprised every time we glimpse the nakedness of the Emperor and rush back to our comforting denial as quickly as possible, inventing new 'explanations' which clarify nothing.

    For those who like Adam Smith and his "invisible hand of the market", perhaps it would be good to contemplate that, like Baron Frankenstein, he invented a monster and now we are all being strangled by it.

    It is time for us peasants to grab the flaming torches and pitchforks to storm the castle.
  • edited November 2009
    Well I prefer Ludwig von Mises to Adam Smith, but that's neither here nor there. You're right that this collapse has more than one factor, but without the main cause of the collapse none of the other factors would have had as big an effect as they did. Without artificial credit expansion to build up the housing bubble there probably wouldn't have been any recession, or at least nothing remotely as severe as this. You can call it the "No true Scotsman" argument if you want, but the fact remains that you can't blame the free market for something caused by an institution that could never exist on the free market. That being the Federal Reserve or central bank.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2009
    It is also important to remember that there is no fixing of samsara. It is inherently unfixable. We may be able to improve things a little temporarily, but in reality, that's as good as it gets.

    Palzang
  • edited November 2009
    Palzang wrote: »
    It is also important to remember that there is no fixing of samsara. It is inherently unfixable. We may be able to improve things a little temporarily, but in reality, that's as good as it gets.

    Palzang

    We as a people may not be able to eliminate samsara, but we could eliminate the business cycle if we stopped manipulating interest rates and inflating the currency.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Maybe. What really matters is the karma of the situation, not what plans we bring to the table. Purify the karma, it won't matter much what system you use.

    Palzang
  • edited November 2009
    Palzang wrote: »
    Maybe. What really matters is the karma of the situation, not what plans we bring to the table. Purify the karma, it won't matter much what system you use.

    Palzang

    I disagree. The plans matter very much. If the plan is to give the government more control over the economy then that's not going to help anything at all.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Palzang wrote: »
    Maybe. What really matters is the karma of the situation, not what plans we bring to the table. Purify the karma, it won't matter much what system you use.

    Yep.
    "I only ever cared about the man. . . . I never gave a fig for the ideologies, unless they were mad or evil. I never saw institutions as being worthy of their parts, or policies as much other than excuses for not feeling. Man, not the mass, is what our calling is about. It was man who ended the Cold War in case you didn’t notice. It wasn't weaponry, or technology, or armies or campaigns. It was just man. Not even Western man either, as it happened, but our sworn enemy in the East, who went into the streets, faced the bullets and the batons and said: we’ve had enough. It was their emperor, not ours, who had the nerve to mount the rostrum and declare he had no clothes. And the ideologies trailed after these impossible events like condemned prisoners, as ideologies do when they’ve had their day. Because they have no heart of their own. They’re the whores and angels of our striving selves.
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Kevin wrote: »
    I disagree.

    I know you do, and that's OK. I would only say work on it some more. Focus on the internal rather than the external. That's where change really occurs. If we can change ourselves, then the world will also change. That's not the way we're trained in the West, but based on my own experience, that's the way things really work. And I still struggle with it as well. It takes time. Patience and perserverance are the keys to Buddhist practice, imho.

    Palzang
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited December 2009
    Capitalism may not be perfect but it is far more atuned to the basic samsaric needs of man the communism is, equality for everyone but because this is samsara and everyone is of a different capacity, intelligence, gender or race this enforced equality is a wet-dream and will never work capitalism needs to be regulated in order for it to work , as a buddhist i find this system much more to my liking as it enables me to practise patience and so forth and compassion for the inequality that is inevitabley created in samsara by the many ego's of this world vying for control.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited December 2009
    Palzang wrote: »
    Focus on the internal rather than the external. That's where change really occurs. If we can change ourselves, then the world will also change. That's not the way we're trained in the West, but based on my own experience, that's the way things really work.

    That reminds me of a passage Tolstoy wrote in his letter, "To the Working People":
    People fare badly only because they themselves live badly. And there is no more injurious thought for people than that the causes of the wretchedness of their position is not in themselves, but in external conditions. A man or a society of men need but imagine that the evil experienced by them is due to external conditions and to direct their attention and efforts to the change of these external conditions, and the evil will be increased. But a man or a society of men need but sincerely direct their attention to themselves, and in themselves and their lives look for the causes of that evil from which they suffer, in order that these causes may be at once found and destroyed.

    To paraphrase: Каждый думает изменить мир, но никто не думает изменить себя (Everyone thinks to change the world, but nobody thinks to change themselves).
  • edited January 2010
    Capitalism needs cheap labor to function.
    As long as people are willing to see no connection between cheap items and the virtual slaves that must make them for nearly non-existant wages, capitalism will always be a morally bankrupt enterprise that at the very least is a beast which cannot ever be fed to the point of satiation (sounds like Dukkha to me). The factories in China, Bangladesh, Mexico, and dozens of other countries are slave pits as horrible as anything imagined by Charles Dickens...and this is where all the cheap stuff we get from Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, Big Lots, Sears, JC Penny, and countless other retailers comes from.
    I'm not sure what the definition of 'cheap labor' is, but I disagree with the concept. AFAIK, capitalism only requires labor, not necessarily cheap labor. Here in the US, there is going to be a major shift in the cheap crappy goods we apparently love so much. When China can generate enough internal consumption to make it less painful, they will allow their currency rate to float. At that time, or at some point before that, Chinese goods will be so expensive that production will shift elsewhere, perhaps even back here. I just read an article the other day saying how 30% of business that was outsourced overseas in the UK is returning home.
    At any rate, we haven't had anything resembling capitalism or free markets. The current crisis was caused, as all economic downturns are, by a central planner, be it a government or central bank, manipulating interest rates.
    You are half right. One half of the most recent crisis was due to excessive borrowing because of super-low interest rates. However, I think the other half, probably more than half, was caused by greed. The greed was on behalf of the people that created CDOs/CDSs, etc. It was also on the hands of every lender that wrote a loan to somebody underqualified, or to anyone who wrote a variable-rate loan.
    We as a people may not be able to eliminate samsara, but we could eliminate the business cycle if we stopped manipulating interest rates and inflating the currency.
    The Federal Reserve manipulates interest rates in an attempt to smooth out business cycles, not create them. Saying otherwise sounds like a conspiracy theory to me...

    brian
  • edited January 2010
    krahmer wrote: »
    The Federal Reserve manipulates interest rates in an attempt to smooth out business cycles, not create them. Saying otherwise sounds like a conspiracy theory to me...

    brian

    How well has that worked out for us so far? The two worst recessions in the history of the U.S. happened on the Fed's watch. But if you look at all the recessions in our history, you'll see that they were preceded by inflation, cheap credit, and manipulation of interest rates. And this is not a conspiracy theory, Friedrich von Hayek won the Nobel Prize in economics for his work on Austrian business cycle theory, that his mentor Ludwig von Mises first put forth.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited January 2010
    The trouble is, we need collective action to stabilize society, but the power to do that always leads to corruption and abuse. Particularly in a democracy, when the economy starts to inflate it's hard for those who control the currency to maintain the discipline necessary to rein it in. Just look at the political beating Reagan and Volcker took when they decided to fight inflation in the 80s. And approaches which give up control, like the gold standard, have their own problems.

    I don't know what the solution to this is. The libertarian solution is certainly simplistic. The only way to avoid this abuse, that I can see, would be for most people to start looking beyond their noses, participating in civil society, and demanding transparency and accountability for the people who are given these powers. I just can't see how that's going to happen in the US, though.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited January 2010
    The other thing to remember here is that the US had a spectacular 50-year run partly by dint of being the only major power to profit from WWII. That had to end some time.
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