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Vipassana
jhana
Explorer
Next week I'm going on one of S N Goenka's 10-day Vipassana courses in the UK. I mentioned it to one of the nuns at the centre I go to locally, mainly to let her know I wouldn't be around for a bit. She pulled a face and said, "Don't let them put you off". I said, "Don't worry, I won't".
I have two questions. 1) Does anyone have any helpful info about Vipassana, over and above that which appears on the dhamma.org website, and/or any personal experiences to relate?
2) Is there anything in Vipassana which could put one off Buddhism, or one's daily practice, or interfere with it?
I've only been practising Buddhism since the summer, reading everything I can, going to pujas at the centre, meditating daily and so far it seems to be going well, and I'm loving it. I know Vipassana is part of the Buddha's teachings, so I don't see how there could be a problem.
Please and thank you!
I have two questions. 1) Does anyone have any helpful info about Vipassana, over and above that which appears on the dhamma.org website, and/or any personal experiences to relate?
2) Is there anything in Vipassana which could put one off Buddhism, or one's daily practice, or interfere with it?
I've only been practising Buddhism since the summer, reading everything I can, going to pujas at the centre, meditating daily and so far it seems to be going well, and I'm loving it. I know Vipassana is part of the Buddha's teachings, so I don't see how there could be a problem.
Please and thank you!
0
Comments
Any silent retreat can be 'hard work', make no mistake. I'm sure you have studied the rules for your retreat:
http://www.dhamma.org/en/code.shtml
Have you asked yourself which of them will be hardest for you?
Who the "they" might be to whom your colleague refers is somewhat unclear - could be your fellow retreatants (they can be a strange bunch) or the leader(s). And what are they going to put you off?
Do let us know how you get on. Noble Silence can be a wonderful experience, particularly in retrospect. If I may, I should like to remember you in my morning offering.
I already follow the five precepts without too much difficulty. But I am going to find it very, very hard getting up at 4 in the morning, or even 6.30 in time for breakfast.
I'm not sure what she meant.
I'm looking forward to Noble Silence too. I take it you've been to retreat/s yourself?
Thanks for your offer, and yes please.
J
Full disclosure: I've never been to a vipassana retreat. This speculation is based on the descriptions I've read of them.
Yes, I have been on retreats, from a brief weekend to 30 days. In every case, they have had their joys and pains.
Fivebells is right that they are not always for everyone all the time but. they can be enormously fruitful - and early mornings are not too hard: the dawn is wonderful.
My guess is your nun is advising you a Goenka retreat is probably the most difficult you can do because it is physically challenging. The meditations are for long periods without moving and alot of sitting. In other words, most 10 day retreats have a balance between sitting and walking meditation whereas the Goenka retreat is mostly sitting. If one does not have a reasonable sitting posture, this kind of retreat is very challenging.
Vipassana is a specialist term. Goenka hijacked the term and used it to name his meditation method. The retreat you will be doing is not about vipassana per se.
Vipassana means seeing clearly three universal characteristics, namely, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self. Vipassana is a fruit of practise rather than a method.
All methods of Theravada meditation have vipassana as their goal, regardless of the primary technique.
The primary technique of Goenka is to watch body sensations. Whereas other techniques of other teachers are mantras, watching rising & falling of abdomen or watching in & out breathing.
As I said, the primary challenge of the Goenka retreat, apart from the silence, is the long sitting and the physical pain that will arise, of which you will be encouraged to watch.
Long painful sitting is OK if you have samadhi (concentration) because the mind simply stays with the meditation object (eg. breathing) and naturally shuts out or ignores the pain.
However, the method of watching pain I personally do not agree with. I have sat & supervised too many meditation retreats to mention and personally I see no benefit to be gained by watching pain. The Goenka method verges on the self-mortification the Buddha discouraged.
Another thing that may put you off are the Goenka claims the Buddha taught like he taught. I am sorry to sound rude but learned Theravadins look upon Goenka's views incredulously. So as one yourself with a Mahayana background, these claims of Goenka may put you off more.
Therefore, when you do the retreat, simply have the view Goenka is teaching his method and, by keeping an open mind, follow the method taught there for ten days.
However, if anything Goenka states conflicts with what you regard Buddhism to be, simply let it go. Just spend your time there trying out the method and practical teachings offered.
Vipassana is part of the Buddha's teachings but the Goenka method is not.
Ideally, it is best to be physically comfortable during a retreat so one's mind can develop concentration or calm clarity. This forms the foundation for vipassana or insight. Insight best occurs when the mind is clear, calm and at ease.
For example, if I wish to watch the changes or impermanence in a flowing river, it is best I sit on the bank relaxed and at ease. Meditation is the same. If we wish to watch the impermanence of our breathing and mental functions, it is best to be comfortable and at ease.
That said: I encourage you to do the Goenka retreat. I know many people who have completed them and all I know have left with a sense of accomplishment. Just follow the method for the 10 days. If one can meet the challenge, the intensity can lead to a strong & rapid development of samadhi and resilience in meditation.
Best wishes
DDhatu
There's a lot of room for confusion, here, so you have to be careful about how you express things. Just watching pain would be a bad idea, but Buddhist practice leads to opening to every aspect of experience, including pain. Samadhi doesn't lead to shutting out or ignorance. It brings the end of ignorance.
I am referring to physical pain (in one's legs).
When one has developed samadhi on the breathing in & out, one can sit for a long time.
Sitting for a long time is required to develop deeper meditation of jhana and constant vipassana.
Vipassana is practised on the meditation objects, namely, breathing in & out and associated changes in the physical body, rapture, happiness, mental states, consciousness & its objects, etc.
When the mind is grounded in the breathing in & out, the mind is at ease.
It simply forgets the legs. Pain in the legs is completely irrelevent because the meditation activity is occuring from the waste up.
When there is samadhi, both the body (from the waste up) and the mind will be at ease.
But painful leg muscles may still be dangling below.
You appear to be confusing meditation with psychotherapy.
Vipassana (insight) ends ignorance but watching pain in one's legs will not do much to end ignorance.
One can learn some non-attachment but there are better ways to acheive non-attachment.
Kind regards
DDhatu
Incidentally, regarding pain, I've found that if I sit for around an hour or more, my shoulder/neck pain goes away. Well - it doesn't actually go, it's more than I can "see" it but it no longer bothers me. When it gets to that stage it feels more like heat, and the whole of my body kind of fizzes.
I've not tried actually focussing on the pain itself though.
Same here.
We are talking about the same thing, but forgetting something is different from shutting it out or ignoring it. It's important to talk about this stuff carefully, because misunderstandings can cause a lot of problems.
What makes you say that?
We are not communicating because we are talking about something different.
When the mind is naturally DEEPLY absorbed in the meditation object, everything calms down and the object of meditation and the associated 'happenings' are very clear.
Then occassionally, awareness of pain in the legs may arise in the mind. One simply stays with the object of meditation because this is where the most or incomparable spiritual benefit is occuring.
The pain in the legs will generally subside, disappear and possibly return.
It has the same value as external noises, which is little.
I would suggest you sit some retreats before talking about 'misunderstandings'. This is because you are not comprehending what I am talking about.
Kind regards
DDhatu
You have made an excellent point that I can use as a distinction.
Unless one has a physical injury or irregularity, pain in the shoulder and neck is generally stress or mind related rather than the pure physical pain (in the legs) I am talking about.
As such, using meditative awareness can dissolve this kind of shoulder/neck pain because the pain or discomfort is related to the mind. One can surround the shoulder/neck pain with awareness or, alternatively, focus on the primary meditation object, especially if it is the breathing in & out. This is because the most efficient way to relax and de-stress the physical body is to relax and de-stress the breathing in & out.
In contrast, pain in the legs due to prolonged sitting is generally purely physical. Awareness will not generally dissolved it because its origin is from prolonged sitting rather than from the mind.
Sorry if this is getting complicated.
Kind regards
DDhatu
Theravada meditation involves establishing awareness or concentration. From awareness arise two fruits or results.
The first result is called samatha or tranquility. The second result is called vipassana or insight.
A simple example of these two results is from watching the breathing in & out.
If the mind can be continuously aware of the breathing in & out (without controlling it), the breathing in & out and the physical body will start to relax and feel comfortable. This calming down of the breathing in & out and overall feeling of physical & mental relaxation is samatha.
Whilst being continuously aware of the breathing in & out, if the mind can clearly see the breathing in & out is coming & going and arising & passing, this clear seeing of impermanence is vipassana.
Also, whilst being continuously aware of the breathing in & out, if the mind can clearly see the body itself breathes rather than "I breathe", this clear seeing of not-self (anatta) is vipassana.
So the development of tranquility is samatha and the development of insight about impermanence & not-self is vipassana.
All Theravadin meditation techniques, including that of Goenka, will naturally develop both samatha & vipassana.
Best wishes with your retreat
Retreats are the best way to explore meditation
Kind regards
DDhatu
Can you explain how what you said seems different from what I said? They seem like the same thing, to me.
Why do you think I haven't been on any retreats?
1. Pleasant or calm abiding in the here & now (samatha).
2. Special knowing & seeing (nannadassana).
3. The perfection of mindfulness & clear comprehension (sati-sampajanna).
4. Vipassana, described as follows:
Kind regards
I'd be grateful if you'd point out the specific things I said which seem at odds, to you.
I just feel there is little value to be gained from watching pain that is purely physical in its origin. Further, one can potentially cause physical problems to their body.
If our posture is comfortable and we use that comfortable posture to develop samadhi, which leads to calm abiding, mindfulness & vipassana, that is the most valuable thing. This is the Middle-Way.
Thus, if we really need to change our posture, it is best to change our posture.
My first meditation ever was when I did four (monthly) ten day retreats in a row. Between the retreats, I also practised sitting & walking for at least 5 hours a day. The retreats had alternate sitting & walking for 45 minutes each. This is a moderate way to develop practise. It supports mental development and minimises physical problems or distractions.
During my 3rd and 4th retreats, I sat so much (that is, chose to sit rather than walk), I could hardly walk afterwards. I sat so much because there was so much going on within.
No way I would miss that spiritual phenomena to be bothered with some physical pain.
Please note in the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha did not instruct physical pain as an object of meditation. The objects are breathing, rapture, happiness, residual defilements, concentration, pure mind, impermanence (vipassana), letting go and cessation (of suffering).
Buddha taught meditation in all four postures, namely, sitting, walking, standing & lying down.
If contemplating physical pain was important, then a person with a very flexible body and excellent posture would not have the opportunity to gain enlightenment.
I was just wondering how you found the retreat jhana? I have planned to go on one in a few weeks and I was wondering what your opinion of it was?
Kind regards,
Clayton
Yes I went on the retreat and it was excellent. I will definitely go on another one at some stage and would recommend it to anyone. The only reason I've not written a report since is that I've been too busy with my course and with meditating!
That said, it was extremely hard work. On day two I really wanted to go home, but stuck it out till the end and was glad I did. I loved the noble silence, walking areas, food and Goenka's discourses. I disliked the pain of sitting for around ten hours every day.
If you have any specific questions please post them here and I'll try to answer them. Otherwise, good luck with your retreat.
Be happy,
Jhana
Clayton
Yes, before the retreat I did the waking up earlier and earlier each day, and it definitely helped. What I wished I had also done was going to bed correspondingly early - normally I am a bit of a night owl, so until at least halfway through the retreat I was lying awake from 9.30pm until around 3am, which, if you're up at 4... I think for me this was the hardest thing, worse than the sitting pain.
I also meditated for longer and longer periods before I went, so I was comfortable with 1- and 2-hour sessions. Nothing prepared me for the sheer hard graft of sitting for a total of 10 hours a day (approx, and with breaks). Stretching helps a bit, though you're not allowed to do yoga as it's distracting for others. Walking during the breaks helps a lot. Paracetamol helps take the edge off (you're not allowed sedatives or strong painkillers, anything which would adversely affect your clarity of mind, but as I understand it there's no objection to over-the-counter painkillers.)
The other thing with the pain is that the Vipassana itself helps you. I can't remember which day this really kicked in, but you become equanimous with itches and pain. You see its true nature, anicca, which is arising and passing away, arising and passing away. When that happens, you still notice the pain but you no longer mind it so much if at all. Notice I used the word 'mind' there. Everything is an appearance to mind.
Re: forbidden items, ipod, book and the like, of course you can have whatever you like on your journey. You just hand it in shortly after arrival. You didn't say which centre you're going to; at Dhamma Dipa (Hereford, UK) they have lockers, to which you have a key but no access during the course. I strongly recommend handing in everything you're supposed to and keeping to all the rules (I'm sure you would!) to get the full benefit of the retreat. On day 2, I broke the precepts by stealing an extra banana from the kitchen and eating it after lights out in my room. That was one heavy banana.
Hope that helps,
Be happy,
Jhana
To me it's a real miracle whenever I hear that non experienced meditators / nonmeditators (not you, you may be a good meditator, I don't know) managed to do this for 10 days, cos it's so hard.
Actually, out of 150 people only about 4 or 5 left. I had only seen one leave (on day 2) but found out about the others on the last day, when the Noble Silence was lifted.
I only started meditating Buddist-style in July this year but have been taking it very seriously. I was determined to stick it out. Even though I wanted to leave, I knew that I wouldn't. One way to succeed, for me, was to take each second of each minute and not to worry about the future at all. I always knew that I could get through the next minute because I'd just got through the last one. But mostly I didn't even think about that - I just followed the instructions and concentrated on the techniques we were being taught, just let the meditation take care of itself.
There were some times when I nodded off in the hall, but we were given techniques for dealing with that situation too.
What techniques did they give you? I have a few, but it's always good to have more...
Clayton
The main one was to go back a step, i.e. use the technique from the previous day instead of the latest one. This is automatically easier to do and to concentrate on with less mind-wandering or mental sinking. If necessary, we could go back to the basic anapana-sati from day one, and if we felt our minds sinking even then, to do several deliberate hard breaths before returning to just observing the natural breaths. It worked for me, anyhow.
How wonderful. I hope you have a good time
Fully agree with this. I have read the sutta and I find this explanation to be superb and to the point. Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge
I am going to try a mini-retreat at my house.
I will be trying a 3-5 day retreat at my house.
Will try it first and then if I can take that, will try the retreat.
I have been wanting to the retreat for a while.
However, I have only been meditating for 1 year on and off and consistently for 3 months.
I meditate for 20 min, twice a day.
Thank You,
Leon