Zen understanding ? no understanding?

TheFound

I want some advice...I'm trying to be CLEAR on some zen koans or sayings,

Okay first, "the sound of one hand clapping" (famous koan/saying)

It's not about any sound or hearing right, I got a clue from another koan based on that koan:

the master says to the pupil who is trying to figure it out, "it would be better if you were dead"

and so the pupil comes in and plays dead, the master says "you are dead alright, but what about the sound of one hand"

the pupil says "I haven't figured it out yet,"
the master says "Dead men do not speak!!!" "GET OUT!!!!"

So I imagined what it's like to be dead to the best of my ability and why would that help to figure out the sound of one hand....
Then I realized a dead man cannot know or hear, leading me to believe that the sound of one hand is only knowable in the not knowable...or not knowable

If the pupil didn't say anything or was actually dead, he wouldn't have answered the question, but he would have been able to be hearing the sound of one hand so to speak....errr?

Am I on the right track? it's kind of like a poem I've heard from this nun whole burned her face to be accepted by a zen master...she said something like "listen to the voice of the pines and cedars, when no wind blows..."

What you guys think?

federica

I think you think too much.

TheFound

I don't think so. :cool:

Barra

There is no correct answer to zen koans. Koans are examined as part of the student/teacher relationship - its more about the "process" of mulling over the koan rather than trying to figure out what the right answer is. You don't have to do koan study to be a buddhist. We have a koan teacher here where I live, but I don't feel a particular pull to go in that direction.

Less thinking .....more sitting....!

Cheers!
Pieta

Validus

Barra wrote: »

Less thinking .....more sitting....!

Cheers!
Pieta

You are a true bodhisattva, Pieta.
*Bows to Pieta*

-Gassho.:)

fivebells

TheFound wrote: »

Am I on the right track?

The closer you get to an "answer," the further away you'll be.

it's kind of like a poem I've heard from this nun whole burned her face to be accepted by a zen master...she said something like "listen to the voice of the pines and cedars, when no wind blows..."

This is good advice.

FoibleFull

While intellectual activity is an amusing pastime (as well I know!), it does not take us into enlightenment. We cannot chain our winch onto mud to pull us out of mud.

TheFound

How come no one ever wants to play...?
( in this post and many others of mine....)

They say "you think too much" or "shut up and sit"

or...."This is irrelevant to the ending of suffering..."

:wtf: shouldn't we train our brain and strive for better intellectual understanding of things in our practice?!?!

So that when the times come, that we need to use skillful means, or you know Right action, ..we can make the right choices...save some sentient beings... end some suffering...

I'm just a noob
but I believe you guys are taking it too easy on your intellects.. I have this feeling..that you are wrong..that you are missing something.

you know for example, you can't sit and meditate-up a cure for a disease,
you can't resolve conflicts in your home by sitting, while everyone else is screaming at each other in some domestic dispute..action is required since we are not masters and we do live in societies..

I'm having trouble getting my point clearly here , I understand that sometimes the budda would say, "this and that are not important don't think about those, focus on the end of suffering".......regurgitate those lines at me..you bastards.:mad: (jk):p

.....you kind of hurt my feelings, my ego... you know, when no one wants to play

but not only that , we have a super intellect, for a reason i think- a frog can sit all day ... but they don't say rebirth as a frog is the luckiest rebirth...

Thinking is important!!! It's okay to think, I think...as long as we understand that it's a tool, or muscle to train...???

For me especially intellectual understanding helps so much, when I sit things fall into place , understandings arise, even when i'm not-thinking/sitting, thanks to my previous intellectual understandings...
I dunno

Brigid

Yes, you're correct about the usefulness of the intellect, TF. We must be able to understand things intellectually before we can understand them experientially.

But I think what people are saying is that we can get caught up in our intellectual thoughts very easily which leads us astray. For some, and I think you're included in this, intellectual thinking can be a sensual experience akin to any other pleasurable sensual experience. What you want to avoid is becoming attached to any sensual experience to the detriment of actual practice.

Linc

There is a difference between practice and pondering practice.

jinzang

You don't understand Zen because you understand koans. You understand koans because you understand Zen. Direct your attention to Zen and the koans will solve themselves.

Barra

Hi, Found.....
I'm sorry that you feel that we're ganging up on you or dismissing the importance of intellectual analysis.

Intellectual analysis IS important if you are studying science, philosophy or operating a business. But in Buddhism we use a different kind of analysis, and it is one that we learn through meditation (we call it 'sitting' but we mean meditating). Through meditation and through a constant review of the Four Noble Truths and the precepts as they apply to our own lives, we come to a kind of "experiential" understanding of how we relate to the world and how we can adjust how we relate to the world.

While there are a lot of Buddhist writings that you can study, and lots of good advice and direction from senior practitioners on this site, I suggest that an important place to start is by learning to simply be in the present and learning to exercise the "non-comparative mind". Just spend some time sitting on a park bench, or on the bus, or wherever you are, and just observe what is going on around you. Take notice of the sounds, the smells, and what you can see. Notice what comes to your mind - there will be lots of "I like this, I don't like that, gee that stinks" etc etc. Be aware that these observations are constructs of your mind and have nothing to do with what is going on around you, and just let them go. This is a really difficult exercise, but it is worth doing. This is the "practice" that we Buddhists do all the time. Once you start to liberate yourself from the traps that your mind sets for you, it is incredibly freeing, and only then does the road to compassion start to open up......

Gassho
Pieta

sara

jinzang wrote: »

You don't understand Zen because you understand koans. You understand koans because you understand Zen. Direct your attention to Zen and the koans will solve themselves.

What a wise post. I will remember this. I could easily have posted what TF has posted, I would have intellectualised it too.

Thanks!