Zen Mind, Beginners Mind - the Book

RWeb

Hey Guys,

I'm starting to enjoy the concepts of Zen, and think there's a huge spiritual side to it, and just finished reading a book called, 'Zen Mind, Beginners Mind.' - Not exactly what I thought it might be (meaning inspirational insights/quotes/etc) but it has made me grasp the meaning of Zen-like state (aka Zasen).

Has anyone else read this book and have similar/opposing feelings? I'm not much of a meditator though I've done it a few times to know the intricate spiritual energy it's able to induce in a person (for me this is similar to working/maintaining my garden) - it's something you really have to be diciplined to do everyday, and like many people, we say we just dont have time where alot of us just dont MAKE the time.

Thoughts??

fivebells

Ironically, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is a fairly advanced book. I read it seven or eight years ago, and there are still sections of it which don't make sense to me. It's great that you got something out of it, and that you're sitting regularly.

RWeb

Thank Gohd it's not just me then

If there was a course in Zen at University for example to teach people how to behave and act to reach the state of Zazen - then perhaps this book would give a strong outline.

But I did find it a hard read, as I love inspirational/Zen-like quote books and thought this would be similar.

fivebells

No, there'll never be such an outline. Everyone has to make their own way, the institutionalized frameworks notwithstanding.

If you like inspirational books, you might try The Feeling Buddha. But inspiration is pretty hard to come by, in honest books about Buddhist practice. It's not about feeling good.

Either way, it's great that you're meditating. Keep at it, and more of Suzuki will make sense, after a while.

Linc

Check out "Zen in the Martial Arts" (Joe Hyams). It's great even if you're not practicing any martial arts and it's a light read with deep ideas to be re-read many times. "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" is definitely on my reading list for the near future.

//edit: Zen in the Art of Archery is another!

RenGalskap

ZMBM was published in 1970 and has never gone out of print, so a lot of people have read it.

Suzuki was never really fluent in English. The interesting thing about that is that people who spoke both English and Japanese and heard him talk in both languages have said that he wasn't particularly inspiring in Japanese, but was very inspirational in English. One of the effects of his difficulty with English was that he abandoned the usual Zen jargon, so that beginners reading the book don't have to struggle with a new vocabulary and literary style. When Yunmen says that a good thing is not as good as nothing, it's not immediately clear what he's saying. But when Suzuki says not to seek something good, you understand right away (if you read the statement in context).

Suzuki once said that he read ZMBM in order to find out what his students thought he was saying. That makes me wonder if Yuenwu would have said the same thing about the Blue Cliff Record.

SilentTear

If nothing is nothing and nothing is nothing,

Whats nothing?

kaya

RenGalskap wrote: »

ZMBM was published in 1970 and has never gone out of print, so a lot of people have read it.

Suzuki was never really fluent in English. The interesting thing about that is that people who spoke both English and Japanese and heard him talk in both languages have said that he wasn't particularly inspiring in Japanese, but was very inspirational in English. One of the effects of his difficulty with English was that he abandoned the usual Zen jargon, so that beginners reading the book don't have to struggle with a new vocabulary and literary style. When Yunmen says that a good thing is not as good as nothing, it's not immediately clear what he's saying. But when Suzuki says not to seek something good, you understand right away (if you read the statement in context).

Suzuki once said that he read ZMBM in order to find out what his students thought he was saying. That makes me wonder if Yuenwu would have said the same thing about the Blue Cliff Record.

Interesting information, thanks for that RenGalskap.

Poppy

I read ZMBM when I was just starting out (which wasn't that long ago!).
It probably gave me that first glimpse into a way of being that goes beyond thoughts and judgements. Thats probably similar to what you experienced with zazen? Reading it felt so fresh, and often completely baffling. If you look him up on youtube, you can find some talks recorded live! Anway, all the best with your sitting.

LesC

I read this book when I was first interested in learning about Buddhism. I was so new to Buddhism that I didn't even know there were different traditions. This book so confused me, that it put me off Buddhism for at least 15 - 20 years. I labelled all Buddhism by my understanding (or lack thereof) of this book, It wasn't until many, many years later, after searching through many other religions and philosophies, that I stumbled onto Tibetan Buddhism, where I realized that not all Buddhist teachings are the same. It was only then that I saw this book in it's proper light (for me at least). Had I not been exposed to this book all those many years ago, and had read instead something by Lama Surya Das, or Sogyal Rinpoche or HH The Dalai Lama I could have been 20 years further ahead in my practice. I am not really qualified to comment on the efficacy of this book, as even today I still find Zen Buddhism a difficult practice to get my head around, so I'll leave that to others. I do, however agree with Lincoln, that "Zen in the Martial Arts" is an excellent read, and one of the practices I learned in that book, I still use to this day.

kaya

LesC wrote: »

I read this book when I was first interested in learning about Buddhism. I was so new to Buddhism that I didn't even know there were different traditions. This book so confused me, that it put me off Buddhism for at least 15 - 20 years. I labelled all Buddhism by my understanding (or lack thereof) of this book, It wasn't until many, many years later, after searching through many other religions and philosophies, that I stumbled onto Tibetan Buddhism, where I realized that not all Buddhist teachings are the same. ...
I do, however agree with Lincoln, that "Zen in the Martial Arts" is an excellent read, and one of the practices I learned in that book, I still use to this day.

Wow, it's interesting that a single book can do that!

Lyssa

I loved ZMBM and am thinking of re-reading it soon. I would recommend Steve Hagen's Buddhism Plain and Simple as a good primer for it. Hagen uses very little jargon and explains the little he does use in simple terms.

LesC: Our different reactions to Zen are interesting to me. I guess it's where you start. I went from Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now to the aforementioned BPaS to books like ZMBM and never found it confusing. I read books by Tibetan authors as well and see very little in the way of contradiction.

LesC

This was unfortunately my first introduction to Buddhism, I had no prior preparation, no "big picture" explanation, and unfortunately it did affect my judgment. While I don't dispute there may be little contradiction between traditions, and it may also be that if I were to read it today, my opinion of it may be different, but at that time, that was what happened. And unfortunately, I made the mistake of painting all Buddhism with the same brush, and again made the assessment that Buddhism was too confusing for me. Maybe it's like a food you wouldn't eat as a child, when you try it later in life, you like it. That was my experience, and whether or not you approve or even understand, that's the way it was.

fivebells

My experience was similar to Les's, though the hiatus was shorter.

kaya

LesC wrote: »

This was unfortunately my first introduction to Buddhism, I had no prior preparation, no "big picture" explanation, and unfortunately it did affect my judgment. While I don't dispute there may be little contradiction between traditions, and it may also be that if I were to read it today, my opinion of it may be different, but at that time, that was what happened. And unfortunately, I made the mistake of painting all Buddhism with the same brush, and again made the assessment that Buddhism was too confusing for me. Maybe it's like a food you wouldn't eat as a child, when you try it later in life, you like it. That was my experience, and whether or not you approve or even understand, that's the way it was.

Your experience seems quite reasonable Les. It may even prove useful for people. Zen as spoken by Zen masters particularly is imho quite idiosyncratic.

Namaste.