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Beaten up with Dharma
Im wondering if any of you have experienced this. Im guessing i can't be the only one . . . . . 
I have had a bit of a rough month, i have been on a forum previously, and i cant help but feel like i have been beaten up by dharma.
I feel like i can never really be right.
I am as good a Buddhist i can be, but i feel like there is always someone better who will punch me back down again.
Has anyone felt like this before, and how did you get around this feeling?
I have had a bit of a rough month, i have been on a forum previously, and i cant help but feel like i have been beaten up by dharma.
I feel like i can never really be right.
I am as good a Buddhist i can be, but i feel like there is always someone better who will punch me back down again.
Has anyone felt like this before, and how did you get around this feeling?
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Comments
The Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha are supposed to be our Refuge, not our persecution. we should feel safe and comfortable discussing them, not harangued or beaten up....
Welcome to our Forum, Tokyo_rose....
We hope you'll feel as if you have found your refuge.
Stay away from Forums that make you feel low.
Pleased when receiving resources and respect,
Displeased when not receiving resources and respect.
Pleased when experiencing pleasure,
Displeased when not experiencing pleasure.
Pleased when enjoying a good reputation,
Displeased when not enjoying a good reputation.
Pleased when receiving praise,
Displeased when not receiving praise.
I guess i was kind of confused at some of the attitudes
It could put beginners off Buddhism really.
Luckily i know not everyone is like that, but it does leave you feeling very low, yes
Even though it sounds a little weak, i would like to feel safe
Thank you
I understand where you're coming from, but like I said, nobody's perfect. Sometimes even people with good intentions can get carried away. I know it's hard, but try not to let it get to you or hold it against them.
Not at all. We all want to feel safe. Some people, for example, feel safe by being physically strong. Others feel safe by having a strong intellect. Still others feel safe by having a sense of moral superiority.
The problem is that people tend to get carried away or have the wrong approach. For example, a person who wants to be physically strong might start bullying others in order to feel like they're strong. Or a person who wants to be intellectual strong might try to belittle others in order to feel smart. And the the same is true with people who want to be morally above "worldly" people.
The way I see it, the people who are truly weak are the ones who try to beat others down with the Dhamma.
And I should know because I was one of them.
Yes, your'e right, i need to stop feeling so low about it all.
Thank you
I found a very effective way I can deal with self doubt that is quite powerful for me. It is a self dialogue that has been published by a lady named Byron Katie, and she calls it "the work". It is basically four questions so let me show you how I use it to work through problems at times.
Starting with the belief that I will never really be right.
I will never be right, is that true?
It is when I feel questioned, yes it is true.
Is it absolutely true?
Well no, I am right at times.
How do I react when I tell myself, I will never really be right?
I begin to question my own worth.
I feel like quitting because I believe it is hopeless to try.
How do I respond to others when I tell myself I will never really be right?
I put them over me. I put myself down. Call myself loser.
What would my life be like if I lost the story that I will never be right?
I would believe in myself. I would not be worried about making mistakes. I would be confident enough so that I can try and accept the way things are.
Now, is a key approach that makes a big difference. She calls it "the turnaround". Or you can describe it as the exact opposite of the statement "I will never be right". So to me, the turnaround on I will never be right would be, I am right quite often. Then, the question is: How do I know I am right quite often?
Well, I make my way through life quite well. In respect to Buddhism and knowledge, I obviously had enough ability to choose this approach so therefore I made a right choice in doing that. Every day I make choices that are right. I don't need people telling me how to choose, think or act. I am a pretty capable person the way I am.
Then, the person is asked to compare the original statement versus the turnaround.
What is more true?
I will never be right?
I am right quite often.
In fact, I am right quite often is much truer. When I question things this way I do not dismiss my original thought. There are times when I do make mistakes but overall, I am correct much more than I am wrong. It is examination in an accepting and open minded way. It also demonstrates to me, that this is my truth.
What I love about this approach, is that it is a way I can question things myself. I do not need the judgement of another to "put me right", it is a way I can put me right.
Thats good.
Yes, i can see that now.
I think i couldn't see anything at all before, as i was plain and simply too distressed to see!
Thank you
If one uses the dhamma for arguements then Buddha advised this is wrong grasp of the dhamma, such as one grasps a poisonous snake wrongly. Buddha said the dhamma is a raft for crossing over.
Even if one dwells merely in the Buddha's infinite love and visa versa, one should not base their self-image on internet intellectual arguements. Instead, one should dwell in faith (trust).
Being relatively new to Buddhist thought and ways, I wish in no way to mislead or undermine anyone (Tokyo Rose). Keeping the spirit of respect in mind, I need to understand if you are speaking about her arguments with previous forums where she felt set upon, or do you feel my discourse with her was misleading her?
The question is made in a genuine attempt to understand and is not meant to argue or question you in any way.
It can help to get a little guidance as I stumble around finding my footing.
Namaste
I think I stumbled across "the work" at some point during my spiritual quest and I put the info, if memory serves it was a printout of pages, in a safe place meaning to come back to it. Of course I've long since forgotten where those pages are and I'm glad you brought it up because I was genuinely interested in what it might entail. Your explanation was great and I'm definitely going to have a closer look and start using it myself. It's exactly the kind of brain work I need.
Thanks!
The Buddha is our original teacher and we always go back to his teachings.
"Monks, there is the case where some worthless men study the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. Having studied the Dhamma, they don't ascertain the meaning (or: the purpose) of those Dhammas 5 with their discernment. Not having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they don't come to an agreement through pondering. They study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas.
Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile
I know what you're talking about and I commiserate with you. I've only been practicing and studying for about 3 years now and I'll never forget the first time I came across what you described. My reaction was different than yours (I felt angry, my ego was stung) but the hardest part for me was realizing and accepting that not all Buddhists were as I had imagined. I was expecting every Buddhist I came across to have developed a certain level of compassion and empathy and I was expecting them to communicate gently. I thought they'd all be nice. Boy! Was I wrong. That's when I stopped coming here. (Sorry...couldn't resist...) Just kidding. (Seriously though, I stopped going to the Buddhist forum where this was happening and which shall remain nameless.)
It took me a while to accept that Buddhists are just people and no different, really, than any other diverse group of people. Leaving that particular forum didn't mean I didn't or couldn't learn from the 'mean-ish' Buddhists. I did. A Lot. Especially about my whacked out, imbalanced, insanely oversensitive ego.
Once I got some distance from them I could feel the ropes tying me to them start to loosen and now it's all just a vague memory of an unpleasant time that gave me a much needed push forward in my practice. Ahhh! Bad times.
I'm sure you'll like it a lot better here. Just don't ask any dumb questions or piss anyone off. (Sorry! I don't know what's wrong with me today!) Just kidding. Really. I am. Sorry. And kidding. But not about being sorry...:wtf:
I felt threatened by thier claims that if didnt live exactly as they said i would suffer for eternity. Its not always possible to live exactly the way you 'should'. It was a shock, i think i did expect more compassion and kindness.
*can i say though, this was only some of the members.
Most of the members were absolutely fine. Some were lovely.
It does take all sorts, it just a shame theres a few who can make you feel so low about yourself
I am worried about what will happen when i am enevitably 'found' on here by the other forums members. Will it all start again on here? I can't run forever.
It is hard to feel safe as forums are so open
You rotter
I know your kidding, but i have to admit, it makes you extremely wary of what you say!
I might need time to lick my wounds before i go full fledge posting!
is just what you need!
I would hope you feel safe enough to post as much as you want. I can't think of a better quote than one from Buddha himself:
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
Buddha
And you can rest easy. If anyone arrives on this forum and starts making mischief of the malignant sort the moderators will sort them out so fast it'll make their heads spin. There is very little tolerance here for malicious attacks. Lincoln really can ban that fast.
This is a kind of home for so many of us, a family even. This is our safe place, our soft place to fall. We take care of one another and support one another.
You'll see. It's lovely here. Not at all like some places...:)
"If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten."
-George Carlin
If you are uneasy then just go one little step at a time. Get to know how people respond. When you are satisfied that your opinions will be respected as you would like them to be then perhaps its time to jump in.
grackle
X
Oh! How I understand you! And your fear. This was my own experience:
Quite some years ago (about 12 or 13, I think), I 'discovered' bulletin boards and internet fora. What joy was mine! Now, at lest, I shall be able to find like-minded people and we can journey together, learning from and leaning on each other.
Ah! The joys of naivety!
I joined a group discussing the work of Father Anthony de Mello (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_de_Mello) which waxs moderated by Sufis. "This will be open, universalist, accepting and supportive," thought I. Need I tell you that, within a few months, flaming (that's when I learned the term) and heavy-handed moderation has brougfht about a wholesale exodus.
A small group of us set up our own Yahoo forum with the absolute intention that it would remain affirmative. Over the ten years we have been going, we have had a few rows but always came back to our basic operating procedure. At times, we go months without any movement on the site but, ever and again, some aspect of the 'spiritual life' will engage one of us and a flurry of discussion, debate, poetry, music, news, etc., will ensue. As a forum, it has remained my ideal. New Buddhist comes close.
I now know that I must "taste and see that it is good". Before I ever; posted here (rather too long ago to pretend that I have a life LOL), I spent days reading old posts.
After all, I had come from E-Sangha and my skin hung off my shoulders in strips. Nobody there wanted someone whose spirituality was so eclectic. Here, by and large, I am tolerated with gentleness and even, when appropriate, taken seriously.
We cannot demonstrate to you that this is a safe place but I hope that you will find it so for yourself.
They will know by now where i have ran away to.
They know.
I did not read your post (but I will read it now).
I think our posts agree. I was saying it is best to dwell in faith & trust. Trust in the Buddha. Trust in oneself. Love for and from the Buddha. Love for and from oneself.
Kind regards
DD
What exactly do you fear. Is it that you revealed more than you should and some cyber-bullies pounced on you?
You could change your screen name etc. Don't respond to anyone that would demean you. I reserve the right to respond or not.
Just a few ideas.
grackle
I fear their judgement and eternal damnation.
I also dont want the same thing to happen again, but i fear i can not make a fresh start. I enevitably will be found.
I'll do my best to answer. Forgive me for not using direct quotes I just had a big lunch and I'm too sluggish to hunt for books around here x)
There is a book called Zen Mind, Beginners Mind that has a chapter on turning the adversities into an advantage. Your adversity here shows me this:
- You have ill-will towards yourself. See when you refer to some people as better than you? They aren't, they are just like an owl butterfly:
They are nothing but an insect in the hands of Buddha. (I don't mean to call anybody an insect but I just thought visual aid makes a more powerful metaphor :-P) .
The lack of compassion/loving-kindness towards yourself (your case), or towards other people (as the cyber-bullies that were ganging upon you), is just a step of the path. The bad feeling you have now is good in the sense it shows you what your next step is: practicing loving-kindness (including towards yourself). The difference is that it's more likely that you will correct your view then the bullies, because your refuge is the Dharma and theirs is aggression (here you can also take the opportunity to reflect on what it really means to take refuge).
See? It wasn't so bad was it. You got an opportunity to make yourself better afterall :-)