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Buddhism and lesbianism
I feel like a bad bad buddhist today.
All my life I craved a relationship with a girl. Now I met one. Beautiful, good, intelligent, sensitive, caring and loyal.
So what do I do? I question if I won't miss men. If I will one day be unfaithful. I question my attachment to being bisexual as opposed to straight or gay. I question if I'm good enough for her. I question why she would want to spend her free time in my company.
All of it worthless... Attachment, desire, false ego, self-obsessed, pointless, self-indulgent rubbish.
I meet someone who nourishes me in so many ways. All I have to think of is this. And I call myself a buddhist...:sadc:
I wanted a fusional connection with someone special. Now I am terrified, feeling isolated and guilty for even questionning whether a woman will be enough for me. Like for years a man wasn't enough for me.
And I feel guilty vis-a-vis other bisexuals. Like the 'I can't make my mind up' stereotype is coming out here and I always deplored that.
But I like both boys and girls since I was 5 or 6. So my identity is taking a rocking here at the grand old age of 31.
I really hope someone out there understands. I am a bi buddhist and I cannot talk to friends because 99% of them are neither. And straight men find the topic interesting for the wrong reasons (those I've come across).
Monologue over.
All my life I craved a relationship with a girl. Now I met one. Beautiful, good, intelligent, sensitive, caring and loyal.
So what do I do? I question if I won't miss men. If I will one day be unfaithful. I question my attachment to being bisexual as opposed to straight or gay. I question if I'm good enough for her. I question why she would want to spend her free time in my company.
All of it worthless... Attachment, desire, false ego, self-obsessed, pointless, self-indulgent rubbish.
I meet someone who nourishes me in so many ways. All I have to think of is this. And I call myself a buddhist...:sadc:
I wanted a fusional connection with someone special. Now I am terrified, feeling isolated and guilty for even questionning whether a woman will be enough for me. Like for years a man wasn't enough for me.
And I feel guilty vis-a-vis other bisexuals. Like the 'I can't make my mind up' stereotype is coming out here and I always deplored that.
But I like both boys and girls since I was 5 or 6. So my identity is taking a rocking here at the grand old age of 31.
I really hope someone out there understands. I am a bi buddhist and I cannot talk to friends because 99% of them are neither. And straight men find the topic interesting for the wrong reasons (those I've come across).
Monologue over.
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Comments
Damn it! Busted! >;-)
Seriously, I used to date a bi girl. She was very nice and very normal.
As for the rest, our identity isn't as solid as we often perceive it to be. It's largely something we create. For example, I used to identify myself as "straight" because I'm predominately attracted to women. However, I've also found men to be attractive on occasion (not so much physically as emotionally), so what does that make me? It makes me whatever I want it to make me because I choose to see beyond the limitations of social boundaries and labels.
I actually wrote something about this back in July regarding identity politics (and while I specifically mention race, I was thinking about sexual orientation as well) if you're interested. There's the original version w/ cool video or the NewBuddhist version w/o cool video.
Elsewhere in the Buddhist Dharma there is really not a lot talked about lesbianism. Why? Because it is your choice. The aim of Buddhism is enlightenment, nirvana, happiness, freedom from worry, peace, self-realization, and so on.
If you focus your mind on learning the Dharma and the upholding the ideals of Buddhism, you can't go too far wrong.
Don't feel bad - there are millions of people around the world doing far worse things, constantly, who feel very good about themselves. (These people are not Buddhists of course nor are they wise.)
For the record; make sure you read into this statement. He's actually talking about his man-love for me.
I'm just that compelling. Make no mistake! :cool:
And we know that you're just using him. Just like you use all the straight guys.
Personally, I'm only attracted to a goat-milk latte. But tonight we got freaky and had a three way with some passion fruit chocolate. It didn't mean that much to me, but I like watching the latte have a good time.
For the record i was what you might call a 'bad buddhist' this weekend (or i prefer to call it unskilled). I pretty much maintained a sate of mindfulness for the entire weekend, sitting with breath on the english hillside with stags a plenty, etc etc. Then I reactued without restrauint to a verbal attack from my father and probably made him suffer. Unskilled!:doh:
Be confident that your intentions are positive and then live and learn.
:whatever:
You original post raised several issues. Different people have responded to different ones, and there was one brief highjacking of the thread, for which I've been feeling guilty all morning. You poured your heart out in the first post, and your sweetness and sincerity deserve a better answer than jokes about three way sex with food.
I can start off by saying that I'm a really horrible Buddhist. If a Buddhist is someone never questions their ability to be faithful, who never doubts their identity, who always feels worthy of other people's love, who always feels that they're worth other people's time, who is never self-obsessed, pointless, or self-indulgent, then I'm not that person and probably will never be that person. (And if a Buddhist is someone who always gives sensitive, caring responses to other people's suffering, and never highjacks their threads, I'm not that person either.)
Maybe I'm lowering the bar too much by comparing you to me, but I don't think you're a bad Buddhist. I do think I'm on firm ground by saying that being a good Buddhist doesn't depend on your bi cred or lez cred, any more than it depends on my straight cred or someone else's gay cred. If you discover that you're acting in ways that you once deplored, then good. Possibly the most important lesson that Buddhism has taught me is that nothing human is foreign to me. I am the things that I despise. I don't claim that that made me a better Buddhist, but I may be less of an asshole. Regardless of what I am, being a good Buddhist doesn't depend on how well you embody a particular identity. It doesn't even depend on how well you embody the identity of "good Buddhist". It's really just matter of giving up attachment and regret. Attachment includes attachment to credibility, and regret includes regret over loss of credibility.
In regard to courtship, first the bad news. If a successful courtship is one that results in a relationship that lasts more than three months, then most courtships are unsuccessful. There's an infinite number of reasons why a courtship may not succeed, and only a very small, finite number of them involve your status as a Buddhist or your status as a bisexual. So if this relationship doesn't go anywhere, it's very unlikely to be due to any of the things you mentioned in your post. Similarly, if the courtship is successful, it probably won't be due to being a good Buddhist or a good bisexual. Over the long run, relationships succeed or fail due to the usual relationship issues like communication and trust, rather than due to one person's credibility in a particular identity role.
When we fall in love, we build up the beloved by playing up their good points and down playing their bad points. When we compare ourselves to this paragon of wonderfulness, we naturally come up short. We feel ourselves to be inadequate and unworthy. That's not necessarily a bad thing. The gratitude we feel when we discover that the beloved feels attracted to us helps strengthen the bond that gets a relationship through the rough times. But we can also sabotage a relationship with these feelings. Or maybe I should say that many people need a couple of trial runs before they build up enough confidence to stay in a relationship over a long period of time. A person may need one to three serious relationships in order to have enough experience to feel certain of their own relationship skills. If you haven't had a relationship with a girl before, then you may need some experience in order to feel that you know what you're capable of.
I get what you're driving at, but I fear you oversimplify the case; there surely IS such a thing as a bad Buddhist - there are several mentioned in the Pali and Sanskrit sutras, for a start! Sunakshatra, Devadatta, and many, many others!
I have been Buddhist many, many years and many times I have felt like a bad Buddhist and I know it will happen again. Just because you're Buddhist doesn't mean you can't be bad.
Moving along, I agree with the post above that it was unfortunate this thread drifted off into pseudo-smut, and thanks to you RenGelskap for keeping it sincere.
OK I would like to pin point these three statements that pretty much sum things up.
It sounds like its your first relationship with a girl. Basically you were playing by the book of social standards until now, so you feel like you are doing a big gamble and a major life change here, hence the fear, and from the fear comes doubt.
Guilt arises when we violate a moral standard that we hold true. Sometimes we say we are at terms with a situation just to find out we are just coating it in defense mechanisms. Maybe you were OK with the fact of fantasizing about another woman, but avoided getting what you really wanted (you said you craved it all your life) because you were actually avoiding this guilt that is consuming you right now, which means you might be coming in terms with your sexuality just now (which is common).
Where does the guilt come from? Possibly you have an idea that being with another girl is wrong (somewhere in your mind) and is to that idea that you might be, unknowingly, attached. That would be my guess as to being the root of all your dilemma. If that's the case you have to find out why you hold that belief, reexamine if its valid or not.
That is how I 'read' your post. Sorry if I sound too 'shrinky'.
As far as Buddhism itself goes, I wouldn't call you a bad Buddhist. We all have latent issues. :-P
Thanks all of you for really going to great pains to take the socio-cultural popularist element out of lesbianism and for seeing beneath that. I appreciate it.
The thing is. I wanted girls from the age of 5 or 6. But I had issues. With my mum, with jealousy of other girls, with lacking self-esteem, with feminist rage, with man-hating, with everything. And I didn't want to declare myself lesbian as a reaction to that. I am more than a reaction. So I waited and waited and oh God waited until I had gotten through all that and felt whole. Then I felt ready to meet a girl and to be authentic. So now I'm seeing her and it's not just bringing up the identity thing it's bringing up every other relationship I ever had (as any new relationship would), what I want, what I'm afraid to want...
But can you imagine how bad I felt when we got intimate and this amazing girl held me close and suddenly I become obsessed with the male physique. Oh goodness, I think. She doesn't have one of 'those'. How do I get passed that? I don't want to bring the forum down to something sexual but issues of sex and lust and desire come into busshism. And how.
Sure I have, deep down, a belief that lesbians are disappointed by or scared by men. Even though I fancied girls and cared for girls since I was really small and have never had adverse relationships with men. I like men more than ever, ironically.
It's just that beautiful, spontaneous, intelligent, sensitive as she is I would be honoured to care for her. So I think it's worth over-coming penis envy.
Getting it on with a girl feels too much like trying to make up for the face we're not a man and a women. It feels like were aping straight sex and I thought it would be something different entirely. A whole new world. So if we're just going to play act is that not a sign we should neither of us be doing what we're doing and be with guys.
Weird. So many questions in my mind. And she's not even 25 yet and has never doubted herself since coming out at 17!
What do you all think? (PS thanks for taking me seriously. I don't want to be too graphic but I love this girl and want to get my head straight for the both of us
xx
There can be badness, but there can't be any Buddhist.
It's the obverse to Suzuki Roshi's statement that strictly speaking, there are no enlightened beings, only enlightened actions.
There have been so many great replies here, I'm not sure I can add anything, but I'll take a shot at it...
The food analogy earlier actually had a lot of truth in it. What is same sex love, but just another version of love! It doesn't need to be compared, and shouldn't be compared. It's different, and it has its own nature and character. It's like snow skiing versus water skiing, they're the same, yet different. Both are thrilling, exhillarating, breath-taking... but different. Do you, in the middle of an awesome downhill run think, "Should I be doing this?" "What will my water skiing friends think?" "But I love water skiing so much" "and then there's the sun, and the beach and water" "Ohhh... water envy..."
No.... If you've anyway got your wits about you, you'll pay attention to what you're doing... practice mindfulness... be in that moment... and fully experience it... absorb every bit of it with all your senses... and cherish it for what it is... not how it compares to something else.
If you have been craving this for 25 years (attachment or not) and now you are allowing yourself to experience that... then experience it. The Buddha said when you eat, eat, when you sleep, sleep. Practice mindfullness. Don't waste your energy on analyzing the experience... experience the experience. To paraphrase an old song "Never count your money while you're sitting at the table; there'll be time enough for counting, when the dealing's done!"
You have made some amazing strides this year, and this may well be a natural progression of that. I think you need to embrace it with everything you've got, don't put labels like "lesbian" and "bisexual" on it, just be there. These questions I perceive as roadblocks, perhaps put there by the "old" Sara trying to regain the control she's lost.
I for one, am delighted by your choice, I see it as yet another unfolding of the fabric that is Sara. Don't question each act of unfolding, for if you do, the tapestry that is you, may never be revealed.
Live, Love, Laugh and Be Happy. :om:
I can't post often, so I should try to post well. Your comments are appreciated.
Les
Palzang
Go For It.
Some of us have spent our lives worrying.
Theres not enough time for that.
Listen to your heart, and take the risk.
I hope it works out for you.
Every happiness,
Susie
If you need the threat of eternal damnation to live a good life, then yes, stick with whatever path you are on.
I'm sorry you have nothing better to do than run through our sangha yelling shrilly about your beliefs with your hands clutched firmly over your ears.
I'm happy you've found someone special in your life. My opinion is that as long as the relationship is healthy, and as you put it, "nourishing", I don't believe the gender of your partner is an issue. It's the person that matters.
Regards,
V
And I would strongly suggest you find some street corner to do it on rather than a Buddhist forum, thank you very much.
Palzang
Sounds very much where you are, with your fingers in your ears, screaming "La la la!! I can't hear you!"
So you remain "In Stuc" and carry on making it up as you go along....
It's entertainment of a sort, to say the least. :rolleyes:
On the other hand, you could do yourself a favour and read up on Buddhism, thoroughly and accurately, using accredited sources and links, and find out what it is you're raving about.
because trust me - most of us here know a whole lot more about Christianity than you do about Buddhism.
We've been there.
Which is probably one of the reasons we're here.
Why are you here, exactly?
I feel much more chilled out about everything. When my thoughts churn like they were doing when I posted this, I need to remember it's a sign of me being mentally tired.
I feel good about her. She is a good person and I adore her so we will see...
Oddly, I've heard this before. And I don't mean that I've read it on Internet forums where people can make anonymous confessions. I mean that I've been told this face to face. And that's the odd thing. I'm not exactly the sort of person that bi and lesbian women seek out to confess their deepest and most intimate fears. So if I'm hearing it, it has to somewhat common. Not universal, but common. Am I right in guessing that there's a fear of admitting this to other bi and lesbian woman? That's there's no place to safely confess to "fear of a dickless relationship"? (I can understand why it's hard to confess this to a lover. I'm thinking in terms of asking for advice from friends.)
Down to? Up to? Laterally to?
I've read that there's a passage in the Flower Garland Sutra that says that orgasm is the essence of enlightenment. I haven't been able to find that passage, and maybe it doesn't really exist, but I don't think we're functioning at a lower level when we're talking about sex.
Assuming that "busshism" is Buddhism and not some Japanese word I've never heard of, yeah. Totally.
I read about a guy who had some sort of unspecified sexual problem. He talked to various Zen teachers about it and got evasive responses. Finally, a teacher gave him a straight answer: "We don't talk about that here."
I've known a couple of people who desperately wanted to talk about sex with a teacher. No go.
"An old pine tree grows on a cold rock in winter." Burn down the shack. Drive away the monk.
Good idea. You don't want to get us straight guys overexcited.
Have you discussed these thoughts with your partner? If she is intelligent, sensitive and honest she may welcome addressing these concerns with you. She may even have some previously undisclosed thoughts herself which may come to light.
The deepest, most intimate relationships take time to develop. Honesty and genuine empathy for oneself and one's partner will determine a relationship's true course, whatever that course is destined to be.
Or a Freudian slip?
I have never craved the male form, never heard it referred to in my circle. I believe fully that you are drawn to who you need to walk by your side and help your spiritual growth, I have always been with women and believe I always will. It has been natural and had never invoked fear in me.
The best advice I have read here is regarding mindfulness, approach your situation with compassion and be there in every moment, appreciating what is unfolding for you. As you move through your path, you will discover whether it nurtures you or whether you need something different.
Best wishes..
but don't you have more important things that bother you?
about inevitable death?, the suffering of countless trillions? impermanence? duality? no-self?? emptiness?
Do what you want with your sexuality,I personally think lesbians are ....cool:D
..you aren't hurting anyone and if you're confused...WHY?! it's as simple as...
#1 don't be ridiculous,;maintain virtue ..you know..
#2 and if you decide to change, no problem..
like a little karma,
it won't stain some eternal fabric of your life, you can start over every single day...
might be hard to meet some beautiful girls you can't get a hold of...(tell me about it
if you follow the 8 fold path the best you can, you are welcome in my world, that should basically be the criteria for everyone to judge themselves,
(OMG did i say that? LOL IS THAT TRUE?!?!)
I'm a lesbian myself and some of the thing you are saying here are a little offensive to me. I'm telling you that because if the girl you are interested in heard you saying these things, she might feel the same way. Lesbians are not all scared by men or disappointed in them. Most lesbians are strong women who have realized, through doubt and having to overcome society's standards, that women are, as you put it "beautiful, spontaneous, intelligent, sensitive" among many other things. If you have feelings for another woman, this doesn't make you a bad Buddhist. I do feel that if you truly are having this much doubt over it though, you are not truly ready for a relationship with another woman.
Scolding! Scolding!
How dare anyone speak from her heart about matters dear to her heart! Why, somebody might take private musings as categorical imperatives! My word, who is ready for all the possibilities life may throw his or her way?
I think you are ready for anything, Sara!
Sara, you amaze me and make the world a braver and more interesting place.
I have really admired the subject matter of this thread and the courage with which it has been presented.
Cheers!
I had the same reaction. Sara's internet is down right now which is why she has not responded. But I can report that she is doing just fine, and I welcome her return to posting here on NB.
Les
It is just impossible to communicate what is truly in our hearts to another human being, barring the few magical moments in our lives when we actually do witness this miracle unfolding for a few brief minutes. Most of the time the words themselves (and our own inability to grasp fully the thought the other is trying to convey) get in the way.
We all have fleeting thoughts of possible reservations or risks or dreams, etc. However, although we share them with others, they still retain a certain aura of privacy which should not, IMNSHO, be aired as possible personal failings. Rather, they should be respected and honored as gifts not offered to individuals or groups, but as ruminations for the travelling soul who may or may not eat the leaves of a particular region's vegetation.
Namastate!
I just love it when you're around.
I would not go into the discourse of why homosexualism is against nature and such. Its perfectly fine to be bi as you may be confused now and still exploring your sexuality and what appeals to you.
You're looking for qualities that happen to exist in girls more so than boys. How about developing a friendship with her first before going further? Take things one step at a time and discover what you ultimately want from it.
Hope this sits well with you.