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Is Monasticism Dangerous?
I thought it would be interesting to hear the perspectives of this group, who seem to be very open-minded. I have often wondered if monasticism is contrary to the goals of Buddhism of encouraging compassion towards others, since it seems that living a cloistered life away from people with different points of view leads to an "us vs. them" mentality. I wonder if hiding away from the world in a monastary is really the best way, or even a good way, to achieve enlightenment. What are you thoughts on the matter?
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Hello Guy,
Why would monastics have an 'us vs.them' mentality ? The ones I've met have been very friendly and open with lay people.
Kind regards,
Dazzle
Welcome to the forum.
I think you may have the wrong impression of what it means to be a Buddhist monastic. Monks and nuns don't hide themselves away in monasteries. They "go forth" into the community. They become the teachers, social workers, therapists, and so on for the Buddhist community. Some monastics will go on retreat for long periods of time, sometimes years, but that is not the way all monastics live all the time.
So to answer your question, no, I definitely don't think monasticism is dangerous.
Can you elaborate on what you mean, precisely? What have your experiences been?
When you have a priestly class it inherently cultivates a clergy vs. lay distinction, and I think this can create feelings of false superiority, can it not? Or at least a false duality.
Sure thing. I too have met many monastics who are as kind as can be. But I think (and let me emphasis that this is just my initial thought, not a fact), that these monastics are the exception rather than the rule. I have asked this question of a few monastics and gotten an almost uniformly hostile reaction which seems to prove my point. It reminds me of one of my favorite koans, where Tanzan met a Tendai monk who refused to drink alcohol. Tazan said to him, "A man who doesn't drink isn't really a man." The monk got furious at this and asked angrily, "Well what is he then?" Tazan replied, "A Buddha!"
How common is this sort of thing? I feel like this should be the primary goal of monaticism, but my impression is that these sort of "good works" are often relegated to the backburner, behind things like chanting and meditation, which seems backwards to me.
Thanks for the reply Simon, and I see where you are coming from that monasticism seems to have been a part of Buddhism from very early on. However, I am not sure I agree that monasticism is tantamount to the Sangha itself. I think there is an aspect of modern monasticism that operates to shield monks from the outside world in a way that Buddha did not do. I think Theravada beggar-monks do seem to be close to this ideal. I think that you can ditch the cloistered, safe environs of a monastery without ditching the Sangha and without ditching Buddhism. But you do raise an interesting point!
yes.... that's called being a 'Lay Buddhist'.....join the club......! :rolleyes:
I had the strong impression that Buddhism was about gaining enlightenment, and release from suffering and rebirth. Not specifically about doing Good Works out in the world. But I guess in the Mahayana tradition, there's a lot about bodhisattvas doing good works. Are you mahayana? Sounds like you lean that way, from your comments I quoted above. The bodhisattva spirit is strong in you, I reckon you must have a lot of compassion. Me, not so much. I'm still working on that, a lifelong project.
Now, let's look at the Buddha and in his day. He traveled and taught. His monastics while they took up in the monastic communities during the winter months, traveled I believe in two's through out the land teaching. These good works can't help but be a result in my humble thoughts to becoming awake. Monastics see the suffering in the world and have compassion.
I am sure that their are monastics that are monks and nuns because they wanted to run away from the responsibility of this life. That have this "I am a monk I am special" mentality. Those monastics that spend their entire life as monastics from a small child. They are not going to a monastery because they want to spend a life serving the greater global community. It is a status of honor for a family to send them. I think that we have alot of monastics that are scholars of their traditions and it is more of a profession. I am sorry if it seems I am rambling.
The other thing I noticed is that everywhere I go it seems more and more about money for dharma teachings. I know in our western mind if you do not ask for money for dharma we usually don't give. I have a small unity type group of different beliefs and faiths that come together to share their beliefs with the group. We meet twice a month We have a donation jar that is placed in on the center and nothing is usually said and NOONE contributes unless it is brought up." we need donations it is coming time to pay for the use of this place" Etc. But that is part of human Western thinking that I hope to get away from in myself.
I don't know I may be talking out of the side of my mouth as my own journey seems many life times away from where it should be. Thanks for listening.
Will this ever happen who knows.
WRB
In Buddhism, enlightenment is about gaining release from suffering by ending 'ego birth'.
In Buddhism, rebirth is about making merit or doing good. This is how the Buddha taught. By believing in rebirth, one has a vehicle for making merit.
Your view is neither Mahayana or Theravada. An enlightened being is engaged rather than passive. The Buddha advised:
By the way, Guy, if you're still around, I forgot to mention something you might find interesting about the monks in the Thai Forest Tradition. They follow the Vinaya, the Buddha's instructions for monastics, as closely as possible. They are forbidden to grow or prepare their own food or handle money. The reason for this is to keep the monastics dependent upon the lay community so they won't go off to practice in complete solitude. They do, of course, go on retreats and practice in solitude occasionally but that is not what they do for the majority of their time.
Every time I have made a plan to get up to the monastary, something has come-up. But now I can look forward to saying Hi when I'm up there.
Very interesting! I will definitely read more about this monks. I know that all monastic traditions developed in different ways, and I think that the criticisms I voiced above are direct at those that divorce the ordained from the lay community, some of which do away with the institution of almsround altogether. On the other hand, I think the Forest Monks as you described them are very close to the ideal.
How wonderful that you've known Ajahn for so long and that your son could be blessed by him. I'd really like the opportunity to have a conversation with him somehow someday but he's a busy man so I don't know if I'll ever get the chance to have more than a short, polite sort of exchange. It would be great though because I have questions I'd love to get some help with and he's the kind of teacher that gets through to me quickly. The way he speaks and how he phrases things makes the teachings so much clearer than they are when I read them. He's gifted that way, isn't he? And I haven't even seen him teach in person. Only by audio recording.
I just read the latest newsletter from Tisarana and Ajahn Sumedho's dates are confirmed for next summer. They're not taking any bookings yet and I imagine when they do the space will fill up quickly, to put it mildly. It would be great to be able to visit during that time (May 25th to June 14th) because there will be so many people around and I've never been to a gathering of Buddhists before.
Maybe I'll bump into you someday at the monastery. Wouldn't that be fun?
And monks aren't priests, Mr. Guy.
Palzang