Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
the principle of the bond across life & death for Bodhisattva family is utmost important in Mahayana teaching.
This also links with the strong bond between the teacher and the students who shared the similar Bodhisattva vows to turn the particular Dharma gate to the saha world
without a lineage , one hardly linked back to the same Bodhsattva family after death , and the danger of reborn to some situation that may cut off from the link of the practice of Buddha dharma for many lifes .
With the bond of lineage , the practitioners could always reborn among his lineage and teachers and fellow lineage mates , i) continue to progress in the dharma gate with the correct teachers , ii) share the dharma merits with the same lineage teachers and lineage mates to create maximum positive imprint to turn the Dharma wheel
Hmm..this kind of thing is really the antithesis of what brought me to Buddhism. Careful linkages to lineage, creating imprints to turn a Dharma wheel, etc, really dives (for me) into an esoteric world that I must then have "faith" in...unless I can somehow experience this for myself in my practice.
Strictly speaking philosophically, and very much trying not to offend anyone: It all feels contrived by man.
Hmm..this kind of thing is really the antithesis of what brought me to Buddhism. Careful linkages to lineage, creating imprints to turn a Dharma wheel, etc, really dives (for me) into an esoteric world that I must then have "faith" in...unless I can somehow experience this for myself in my practice.
Strictly speaking philosophically, and very much trying not to offend anyone: It all feels contrived by man.
i can see why you feel that way.
But for me personally the connection to lineage and the transmission of the teachings is a tremendous support. I know that I have backup and support through the lineage and my teachers and this provides me with comfort, inspiration, and motivation to remain diligent and confident.
To me this is the practical importance of lineage "blessings".
Understood...but I don't want support in that way. Is it strange that I should want it all to come from within?
Probably..I am called "strange" on pretty much a daily basis.
Understood...but I don't want support in that way. Is it strange that I should want it all to come from within?
Probably..I am called "strange" on pretty much a daily basis.
i dont think thats so strange.
When you really get down to it the idea of Guru Yoga in the Tibetan tradition is an "internal" support. People think it is some kind of guru worship but thats not the case. The actual idea is the recognition of one true nature as being non-other than the teacher/Buddha.
This is also the internal quality of the lineage.
I think that many of the hierarchical, and futuristic concepts that seem to linger in Buddhism sound an awful lot like wishful thinking on the part of man, as Ray has mentioned.
One of these certainly must be the idea of living many lives with multiple opportunities to become ‘Realized.’
Also:
The whole idea that these Realized persons are very special, if not God like, is a bit like the Brahman class that Buddha rejected don’t you think? One thing for sure, they say, these are not your ordinary run of man.
Why not? Why are there these two classes of man?
Don’t most elite notions stink of ego, with its special teachers and special opportunities and its special few?
Belonging to this group, or that lineage always speaks to the old ‘ins, and the outs’ we suffered in the schoolyard. There is nothing new in this whole scene, with the teacher's pet, or even the sibling rivalry being all about who was Mom/Dad’s favorite. Strong bonds between teachers and students point to this same old favoritism, which we all are tempted to love and indulge in, especially when we happen to be that favorite.
I think a lot of this goes back to the fabulous ideas we have dreamed up about what Realization must be, and how this extraordinary state is coming to us some day soon in the future if we just play our cards right. We like this feeling of being in control, being special, and owning our progress.
“One thing is sure,” we say, “Realization certainly can’t be now, as I cannot see it.”
Of course you can’t see it. What you are looking for doesn’t exist.
I am not saying that Realization doesn’t exist.
I am only saying that it isn’t anything like the circus coming to town, with flags, and balloons, fireworks, and loud music. That is what our mind wants it to be.
Whereas:
Realization whispers so quietly, and appears so gently, that we must stop and listen very closely, so as not to miss it. It has been right in front of our eye this whole lifetime, and we insist on look around it at other things.
Let us remember:
The Buddha himself, pointed to the fact that we are all, every single one of us, Enlightened right now, (that our Awareness is Ever Awake) in this very minute, and we just don’t realize this. Perhaps this is because we are so full of contrary ideas (personal dreams and overblown expectations) that we cannot see our Ordinary Face in this Immediate Moment.
Last question:
When does merit stink of greed or what has been called Spiritual Materialism.
Wanting support of any kind is certainly all too human. It all comes back to a matter of degree don't you think?.
I can remember being taught as a child that I couldn’t directly approach God, that there was always a middleman, either Jesus, or a priest, whatever in between. Wasn't I good enough, who I was?
That didn’t seem right to me at the time, like I was 2nd class. : ^ (
Years later, once again, I was told that I needed a guru.
Now the Buddhist’s are saying that a teacher is required. I still see this as not being entirely true.
Although I can see how they could be helpful to some. I don't believe it to be a requirement for all.
I prefer to trust myself, look by my own lights, and not go about with my knees bent in hopes that someone will save me from myself.
If it is not my truth…than I don’t want it.
Freedom is never 2nd hand.
If it is not originally your, no one can give it to you.
Hi, let us countercheck our basis within the buddhist scriptures in canon, the first group of the historical Buddha's direct disciples , derived from the members of the Buddha's royal family and the young elites from Brahmin families.
According to the Buddha, they infact have strong karmic bond with the Buddha in their past lifetimes, and have been teacher-disciples relationship too in their past lifetimes. They were all born together with the Buddha in a custer in north eastern ancient India state of the Shakya royal family , they are by no mean any accident they they came together and support in forming the first sangha of the Buddha .
ask why we are not born together with the Buddha in 2500 years ago to learn direct from the Buddha directly ? the buddhist reply would be we do not have that strong karmic bond with the teacher Shakyamuni Buddha
or ask why is the tendency that we are drawn to the particular teaching in Buddha Dharma?
in Buddha dharma there is no such things known as accident or ramdom, everythng in the phenomena there is a profound neat matrix of cause and effect interconnected
as the Buddha's disciples , we have the duty to help him to turn the Dharma wheel in this saha world, that is his original vow to enlighten and bring absolute hapiness/liberation to mankind. but to do this we need to gather some good men to form the force of good , and since this noble would takes many generations to realise, they have to continue to reborn here to complete the task
ask why we are not born together with the Buddha in 2500 years ago to learn direct from the Buddha directly ? the buddhist reply would be we do not have that strong karmic bond with the teacher Shakyamuni Buddha
or ask why is the tendency that we are drawn to the particular teaching in Buddha Dharma?
in Buddha dharma there is no such things known as accident or ramdom, everythng in the phenomena there is a profound neat matrix of cause and effect interconnected
This way of thinking does not resonate with me, at least not now. It feels like elitism, which the human race is most excellent at contriving.
All religious orders figure out a way to create a pecking order as time goes by. "Karmic relationships" sound like a wonderful, hard-to-argue-with mechanism for Buddhists of 2000 years ago to cement themselves at the top of a hierarchy.
I suppose I'm a suspicious bastage, after all. :rolleyes:
ask why we are not born together with the Buddha in 2500 years ago to learn direct from the Buddha directly ? the buddhist reply would be we do not have that strong karmic bond with the teacher Shakyamuni Buddha
or ask why is the tendency that we are drawn to the particular teaching in Buddha Dharma?
in Buddha dharma there is no such things known as accident or ramdom, everythng in the phenomena there is a profound neat matrix of cause and effect interconnected
I prefer to be born now than any other time and in the same place than any other place, because I'm enjoying my present life
Any religion worth its salt is going to have a noble myth to explain away all difficulties.
Like why it appears that so many practitioners of the more dogmatic types of Buddhism, (lover’s of the book), after a lifetime of devotion, (all dotting their ‘i’s and crossing their ‘t’s) nevertheless seem to die unenlightened. This would certainly be too discouraging not to cloth in a story to mitigate it or remove the sting.
Or:
Why some people seem to be in an inner circle of buddies, with access to the noted big wigs or holders of the truth, thereby being treated (for all due purposes) as being a privileged elite.
Or:
Why you can’t do this on your own without the magic word, or the secret handshake.
Or
Why what they think is always more right than what you could possibly think.
Sorry, I’m not buying it.
I took what the Buddha said, both sensible and a great method, and looked for myself. Sure enough there it was, just what he had seen in doing that. What he saw wasn’t magic. It was right there for anyone to see, if they just looked. You just had to look directly at it and start to disrobe it from all of the confusions and religious stories that had been added to it over time.
Mind is a great collector of stories and illusions. Mind loves to weave her dreams.
I’m supposing that the Buddha didn’t buy much of this stuff either, when he said not to buy into anything you couldn’t see directly for yourself.
This statement was his ‘sword of discrimination.’ He knew that large vines of ongoing confusion would certainly grow up and incase his words over time.
Hi , thanks for your good replies,
first , how to ensure that our next existence we could continue our Buddhist practice and make further progress from there ?
I think in the teaching we need to have this two criteria :
i) to be born either in the human and gods relams , as in the scriptures states that only in this two realms have the capcity to practice Buddha dharma
iia) we need to meet the good influences ( spirtual friends ) in life to link back to the practice of Buddha Dharma ,
iib) and more importantly we will not met negative influence that lead us to cut off the link with Buddha Dharma by slandering lives and the teaching
Certainly I do not see Buddhism is any form of elitism , based on
i) in Mahayana scriptures states that all living beings has the same potiential to attain Buddhahood, all have the same Buddha nature
ii) the buddha's behaviour demonstrated that he has a wide range of disciples , from the royality members, brahmin elites, wondering hermits/yogis to the uneducated blacksmith, washerman, butcher, widows and marginized folks
the buddha put on the robe made from cloth for covering the death , to demonstrate to the brahmin class that are no such thing as holy or unholy externally , the purity is derived from one's own mind
and the Buddha state that the true brahmin is not by birth but by one's virtues in daily conduct
Buddhism seems all very confusing and complicated to me, but it's just life, amazing yes, but how could life be so intricate, I mean, I just don't get it. With all the realms and rebirths, I mean it's like we're just second class citizens in the Multiverse and when we die we've got to get a lawer, consultent, do the paperwork, an angel tapping away on a computer trying to find your information, *sigh*. Even at that it makes me think is this life, or is the that life outside this life, and even then things get more confusing. The 'this isn't our lot' sort of idea, that's in every religion I know, all seems a bit idealistic don't you think?
actually most serious practitioners don't ready care , so long they practice wholeheartedly now and then, and not slandering the lives and Dharma, they are ensured to meet the Dharma and continue their practice in next existence
I don’t believe anyone here feels that Buddhism, or what Buddha said, is at fault. But I do believe that there are many faults within the Buddhist community, and what is commonly accepted as gospel must be investigated and weeded out diligently.
Certainly many of these errors in thought and judgment go directly back to human weakness. Yet, at the same time, they do lead people astray and cause unnecessary suffering, don’t you think?
: ^ (
Most of these problems are not created on purpose by any means. I see confusion as innocent. Yet they do exist, nevertheless.
I also believe that the fall out from these errors can sometimes act a barriers to wisdom, or even chase seekers away, who might have gained through Buddhism, simply because initially they were misinformed as to what the Buddha was talking about, and actually pointing out.
I fully realize that some of this thinking may not lead us directly into enlightenment, on the fast track, although corrections certainly might be clarifying in themselves.
Like some people like to weed gardens as a hobby or to relax. I find it edifying and nourishing to weeding out thoughts in search of wisdom. I also like to think that this benign enterprise on my part, may prove useful to others and lead in the direction of clarification.
There are many paths and although meditation (Dhyana) is a great path, and highly represented on this forum, it is not the only path, my friend. I consider myself to be more of a Jnana (path of mind) with a big scope of Bhakti (devotion via contemplation). Although I do mindfulness and meditation on breath (both as constantly as possible, at this time) to round it out.
Having a precious human rebirth is not something that happens all the time. Precious human rebirth is not the same as ordinary human rebirth. Precious human rebirth includes eight freedoms and ten endowments or opportunites.
The eight freedoms are the four non human states which include the freedom from being born in a hell realm.
Freedom from being born in a preta or hungry ghost realm.
Freedom from being born in a long life god realm.
Freedom from being born as an animal.
And the four human states which include freedom from being born in a place with no dharma.
Freedom from being born in a place where a Buddha has not appeared.
Freedom from being born with defective senses.
Freedom from being born with strong wrong views.
The ten endowments or opportunities are divided into two sets the five which pertain to oneself and the five which relate to external conditions.
The five personal are:
Being born as a human.
Being born in a central place where we can practice the dharma.
Being born with a well functioning body and mind.
Not having committed any of the five heinous crimes.
Having faith in the Buddha's teachings.
The five circumstantial include:
Being born in a time when a Buddha appeared.
Being born in a time when the Buddha taught the dharma.
Being born in a time when the dharma exists and flourishes.
Being born in a time when we can meet practitioners of the dharma.
Being born in a time when practitioners enjoy kind support.
Thank goodness, I was hoping you weren't a newbie because then I'd really be far behind in my Buddhism knowledge... I probably need to extend it beyond five precepts, a few realms, karma, and a several parts of the eight-fold path. Then should make a song like 'now I know my ABC, next time won't you sing along with me'. I could probably make a humourous song with my combined poetry writing experiance, music skills, and instrument-a-playing, but I don't know what it's about LOL
Having a precious human rebirth is not something that happens all the time. Precious human rebirth is not the same as ordinary human rebirth. Precious human rebirth includes eight freedoms and ten endowments or opportunites.
The eight freedoms are the four non human states which include the freedom from being born in a hell realm.
Freedom from being born in a preta or hungry ghost realm.
Freedom from being born in a long life god realm.
Freedom from being born as an animal.
And the four human states which include freedom from being born in a place with no dharma.
Freedom from being born in a place where a Buddha has not appeared.
Freedom from being born with defective senses.
Freedom from being born with strong wrong views.
The ten endowments or opportunities are divided into two sets the five which pertain to oneself and the five which relate to external conditions.
The five personal are:
Being born as a human.
Being born in a central place where we can practice the dharma.
Being born with a well functioning body and mind.
Not having committed any of the five heinous crimes.
Having faith in the Buddha's teachings.
The five circumstantial include:
Being born in a time when a Buddha appeared.
Being born in a time when the Buddha taught the dharma.
Being born in a time when the dharma exists and flourishes.
Being born in a time when we can meet practitioners of the dharma.
Being born in a time when practitioners enjoy kind support.
Great post. I first heard this as an introduction of an audio teaching on "The Three Principal Aspects". It is a great motivator for practice when one realizes the amazing conditions and merit we need in order to have all of the above mentioned things. As another teacher put it, When will we meet with these conditions again? This is the time to practice.
One should know that in Buddha Dharma , there are general meaning and specific meaning to the same Buddhist terminlogies.
General meaning refers to the generalized meaning , and specific meaning refers to the specific meaning according to the level of cultivation and specific dharma gate.
For example , at different level of meaning to , dharma , nirvana , buddhahood , bodhisattva etc
there are Nikaya teaching, Connecting teaching, introductary Mahayana , provisional Mahayana , gradual teaching, Sudden teaching, Specific Teaching, Complete Teaching etc
As the Great Teacher Tientai ( Chi-i , Zhi-i ) said as a buddhist practitioner that confused with the general and specific understanding may not get the practitioner any way in their advance cultivation.
<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->
I think a lot of people are confused over the differences between the Buddhist schools, thinking that many of them are likely cultural modifications. In this they would not be wrong, though that does not mean the changes do not also express the Buddha's teachings. Add to that the vastness of the Buddha's teachings taken as a whole and it's difficult not to become wary of committing to a specific school of thought.
What I've found useful in dealing with this is to study Buddhism first and gain knowledge of the core concepts that should exist within all Buddhist schools:
*Anicca... Impermanence
*Anatta... Selflessness
*Dukkha... Attachment/Craving that is the main problem to overcome
*Dependent Arising (or Dependent Origination or Dependent Co-Arising, etc.)
The Four Noble Truths
1: Life means or is in a state of dukkha (suffering, unsatisfactoriness, stress)
2: The cause of this dukkha is craving or attachment
3: The end of dukkha, called Nibbana, is release from craving
4: The Noble Eightfold Path leads to Nibbana... to liberation
The Noble Eightfold Path, which consists of:
1: Right View
2: Right Intent
3: Right Effort
4: Right Speech
5: Right Action
6: Right Livelihood
7: Right Mindfulness
8: Right Concentration
The precepts that Buddhists observe are contained in the teachings of the Noble Eightfold Path. The primary ones are to avoid killing, stealing, lying, sexual/sensual misconduct and intoxicants that can cause heedlessness.
These concepts are the real heart of the Buddha's message to the world. There is a lot more to learn (for instance the Theravada school's primary texts, the Pali Canon, are said to be 11 times the size of the Christian Bible). But if you start with the core concepts and internalize these truths, you will be much further ahead than if you choose to place equal weight on everything.
After you are comfortable with these teachings, I feel confident that whichever school you choose to belong to (you may have little choice depending on location), you will have a good footing and will know in what areas you need to put forth effort.
Having had a lot of cross vehicle experience there is phenomena that I have had the chance to really investigate. This is the remarkable isolation of the various Sanghas. Each Sangha, if believing in the basic unity of all Buddhist schools, will inevitably unify them by collapsing the other schools into there own. Zen people can show a remarkable ignorance of Theravada and just assume its the same as Zen, and Theravadin people often assume the Pali Suttas are the baseline for all schools, which they are not. Vajrayana people will integrate Theravada as a partial subset of their own tradition. It is as if there are these seperate silos of tradition and each unifies Buddha Dharma on there own unique and very different terms, unaware that the nature of the other traditions isnt really known to them. I honestly think it can be healthy to start by acknowledging real differences and respecting those. Then from there a common ground can be explored instead of assuming an prior commonality. IMHO
Yep, they are all different, but because they're Buddhist they're less likely to discriminate against each other than, say, different sects of Christianity (where more often than not each sect believes it alone is correct). When it comes down to it, every Buddhist school is correct and can lead to liberation. An individual's temperament might make one school or another easier for them, but with the proper effort they all lead to the same place.
Newcomers to Buddhism will invariably become entangled in confusion in regards to which school they should choose. That the schools differ in approach but not at the heart is difficult to see through all the differences in practice they seem to have. I feel great empathy for their plight, though I didn't waste too much time on worrying about the different schools myself.
Few people when beginning out in Buddhism, which is more about personal investigation and experience, maybe even a search for meaning, rather than simply doctrine, do not have enough experience or information to choose a good fit in a school. : ^ (
Saying that any school will do, because they are all basically the same is a bit like saying grab any girl and marry her, because they all have the same sexual apparatus and are basically just girls. ; ^ )
I didn't mean they're all the same; I believe I did mention certain schools would be better for certain temperaments. Ultimately it's a preference.
The only point I was making is that they all teach the same fundamentals and lead to the same goal, though they have different traditional ways of getting you there.
It's not that each will make you the perfect wife, but that each are equally capable of becoming pregnant and bearing you a child. You may have an easier time with one or the other but it depends on you and the effort you put in.
S: I believe I did mention certain schools would be better for certain temperaments. Ultimately it's a preference.
S9: You know what they say about, “The devil is in the details.”
When you say that it is just a temperamental decision which school you belong to, it makes it sound like it is an emotional decision, does it not? : ^ (
But if that is the case, why do so many Buddhist scholars spend a whole lifetime untangling Buddha’s words? Or for that matter, why aren’t we Buddhists knocking off becoming ‘Realized’ on a weekend retreat or two?
It would take us more than 2 weekends just to read all the sutras, let alone implement them into our lives.
S: The only point I was making is that they all teach the same fundamentals and lead to the same goal, though they have different traditional ways of getting you there.
S9: I bet if just you and I sat down and spoke at length about our Buddhist goals that there would be many places where we differed markedly, esp. since I am a Buddhist Mystic.
Maybe I am a particular “pain in the you-know-what,” but I can’t even get past the 8 folds ‘Right View’ without differing from the ethical point of view so many people seem to hold in that area.
S: It's not that each will make you the perfect wife, but that each are equally capable of becoming pregnant and bearing you a child.
S9: If procreation was your only goal in marriage, we could take care of that without even meeting, and fighting, and learning all of the hard lessons of intimacy, though they are well worth the effort. ; ^ )
S: You may have an easier time with one or the other but it depends on you and the effort you put in.
S9: Would that “effort” was all that was required in order to change a fight of wills into a marriage made in heaven, although it is definitely a necessary component of being married and living to tell about it. ; ^ )
I have been married for just about ever, and I love my best friend more than life itself. Yet, I must admit that I am still learning, because nothing/no-one stays still, and as we both continue to grow, and change, we once again must also adjust.
I don't have a school and don't intend too. I agree with alot of Buddhism but I don't want to have to stick to anything. I want my mind to be free and find it's own truth. But that's what works for me, but there's plenty of choices for everybody
J: I don't have a school and don't intend too. I agree with alot of Buddhism but I don't want to have to stick to anything. I want my mind to be free and find it's own truth.
S9: The Buddha would want you to be totally free to find your own Truth. Buddha’s words should be a vehicle to help you along Your way, and not a prison to confine you or limit your journey.
If you are not 100% free to find you own Ultimate Truth, how than could you possible be either Liberated or personally Realized?
Any ism that would prohibit such a freedom, would certainly be an error.
I don't have a school and don't intend too. I agree with alot of Buddhism but I don't want to have to stick to anything. I want my mind to be free and find it's own truth.
That's fine, but it's worth getting support and advice from people that are further along than we are, and occasionally it's good to have our ideas of "truth" challenged - otherwise it can just be a comfortable ego trip.
Just the fact that Joe is here speaking with us, says a lot about his willingness to listen, and his openness to other people’s ideas. He certainly has my "support" on his personal journey. : ^ )
But, you make a very good point, too, because ego is a “Rascally Rabbit” as the cartoon says.
I don’t think anyone on this forum can scratch his or her butt, without someone saying, “Shouldn’t you be scratching the other cheek." So he’ll get his share of input, never fear. ; ^ )
Your advice, I have found, is always both well meaning and worth listening to.
Bible Quote: "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity." Ecclesiastes
In our times many are practicing without a teacher; most could not endure the 17 years of wandering that Bassui invested in seeking to deepen his understanding visiting the various Zen Masters of the times. For many the question goes even further than finding a true teacher, it edges into the very unknown waters of seeing into one’s own mind without a teacher. But for many that is just what will happen. That is the power of asking and staying with your (own) questions throughout time.
Tokukei: Why don’t you wear
monk’s robes?
Bassui: I became a monk to understand the great matter of life and death, not to wear Buddhist robes.
Tokukei: Then are you looking into the koans of the old masters?
Bassui: Of course not. How can I appreciate the words of others when I don’t even know my own mind?
Tokukei: Well, then, how do you approach your religious practice?
Bassui: I want to clarify the source of the great Dharma handed down by the Buddhas and the patriarchs. After attaining enlightenment, I want to save the bright and the dull, teaching each one according to his capacity. My true desire is to relieve others of their pain though I myself may fall into hell.
Hearing this Tokukei simply put his palms together and bowed. A friendship grew between these two monks from that time.
Saying that any school will do, because they are all basically the same is a bit like saying grab any girl and marry her, because they all have the same sexual apparatus and are basically just girls. ; ^ )
The Buddha taught 84,000 methods of awakening in order for the different kinds of mental preoccupations of human beings. All you need to do is find one that works for you.
There is value in all the Buddha's teachings and methods. Keep an open mind, try some things out and see what suits you. No one else can do that for you.
The Buddha himself, pointed to the fact that we are all, every single one of us, Enlightened right now, (that our Awareness is Ever Awake) in this very minute, and we just don’t realize this.
S9, would you be so kind as to cite a reference (or, if possible, multiple references) to this teaching?
But, I believe that Buddha said this just around the time when He was first Awakened. If I am not mistaken, if my memory serves me well, those were some of his first words right afterward ‘Waking up.’
And:
Interestingly, he also claimed to "gain absolutely nothing."
This could only mean that he found something that had been there all along, but went unnoticed previously.
I did Google just now “Buddha, we are all enlightened” to see if that might help you any, and quite a few readings appeared.
Happy hunting. : ^ )
If you run into any problems, just let me know and I will certainly try to help further in my limited capacity.
BTW, I enjoy you keen mind, and posting as well. : ^ )
Comments
This also links with the strong bond between the teacher and the students who shared the similar Bodhisattva vows to turn the particular Dharma gate to the saha world
without a lineage , one hardly linked back to the same Bodhsattva family after death , and the danger of reborn to some situation that may cut off from the link of the practice of Buddha dharma for many lifes .
With the bond of lineage , the practitioners could always reborn among his lineage and teachers and fellow lineage mates , i) continue to progress in the dharma gate with the correct teachers , ii) share the dharma merits with the same lineage teachers and lineage mates to create maximum positive imprint to turn the Dharma wheel
Strictly speaking philosophically, and very much trying not to offend anyone: It all feels contrived by man.
But for me personally the connection to lineage and the transmission of the teachings is a tremendous support. I know that I have backup and support through the lineage and my teachers and this provides me with comfort, inspiration, and motivation to remain diligent and confident.
To me this is the practical importance of lineage "blessings".
Probably..I am called "strange" on pretty much a daily basis.
i dont think thats so strange.
When you really get down to it the idea of Guru Yoga in the Tibetan tradition is an "internal" support. People think it is some kind of guru worship but thats not the case. The actual idea is the recognition of one true nature as being non-other than the teacher/Buddha.
This is also the internal quality of the lineage.
I think that many of the hierarchical, and futuristic concepts that seem to linger in Buddhism sound an awful lot like wishful thinking on the part of man, as Ray has mentioned.
One of these certainly must be the idea of living many lives with multiple opportunities to become ‘Realized.’
Also:
The whole idea that these Realized persons are very special, if not God like, is a bit like the Brahman class that Buddha rejected don’t you think? One thing for sure, they say, these are not your ordinary run of man.
Why not? Why are there these two classes of man?
Don’t most elite notions stink of ego, with its special teachers and special opportunities and its special few?
Belonging to this group, or that lineage always speaks to the old ‘ins, and the outs’ we suffered in the schoolyard. There is nothing new in this whole scene, with the teacher's pet, or even the sibling rivalry being all about who was Mom/Dad’s favorite. Strong bonds between teachers and students point to this same old favoritism, which we all are tempted to love and indulge in, especially when we happen to be that favorite.
I think a lot of this goes back to the fabulous ideas we have dreamed up about what Realization must be, and how this extraordinary state is coming to us some day soon in the future if we just play our cards right. We like this feeling of being in control, being special, and owning our progress.
“One thing is sure,” we say, “Realization certainly can’t be now, as I cannot see it.”
Of course you can’t see it. What you are looking for doesn’t exist.
I am not saying that Realization doesn’t exist.
I am only saying that it isn’t anything like the circus coming to town, with flags, and balloons, fireworks, and loud music. That is what our mind wants it to be.
Whereas:
Realization whispers so quietly, and appears so gently, that we must stop and listen very closely, so as not to miss it. It has been right in front of our eye this whole lifetime, and we insist on look around it at other things.
Let us remember:
The Buddha himself, pointed to the fact that we are all, every single one of us, Enlightened right now, (that our Awareness is Ever Awake) in this very minute, and we just don’t realize this. Perhaps this is because we are so full of contrary ideas (personal dreams and overblown expectations) that we cannot see our Ordinary Face in this Immediate Moment.
Last question:
When does merit stink of greed or what has been called Spiritual Materialism.
Curious to hear your answers,
S9
Wanting support of any kind is certainly all too human. It all comes back to a matter of degree don't you think?.
I can remember being taught as a child that I couldn’t directly approach God, that there was always a middleman, either Jesus, or a priest, whatever in between. Wasn't I good enough, who I was?
That didn’t seem right to me at the time, like I was 2nd class. : ^ (
Years later, once again, I was told that I needed a guru.
Now the Buddhist’s are saying that a teacher is required. I still see this as not being entirely true.
Although I can see how they could be helpful to some. I don't believe it to be a requirement for all.
I prefer to trust myself, look by my own lights, and not go about with my knees bent in hopes that someone will save me from myself.
If it is not my truth…than I don’t want it.
Freedom is never 2nd hand.
If it is not originally your, no one can give it to you.
Warm Regards, : ^ )
S9
According to the Buddha, they infact have strong karmic bond with the Buddha in their past lifetimes, and have been teacher-disciples relationship too in their past lifetimes. They were all born together with the Buddha in a custer in north eastern ancient India state of the Shakya royal family , they are by no mean any accident they they came together and support in forming the first sangha of the Buddha .
ask why we are not born together with the Buddha in 2500 years ago to learn direct from the Buddha directly ? the buddhist reply would be we do not have that strong karmic bond with the teacher Shakyamuni Buddha
or ask why is the tendency that we are drawn to the particular teaching in Buddha Dharma?
in Buddha dharma there is no such things known as accident or ramdom, everythng in the phenomena there is a profound neat matrix of cause and effect interconnected
as the Buddha's disciples , we have the duty to help him to turn the Dharma wheel in this saha world, that is his original vow to enlighten and bring absolute hapiness/liberation to mankind. but to do this we need to gather some good men to form the force of good , and since this noble would takes many generations to realise, they have to continue to reborn here to complete the task
This way of thinking does not resonate with me, at least not now. It feels like elitism, which the human race is most excellent at contriving.
All religious orders figure out a way to create a pecking order as time goes by. "Karmic relationships" sound like a wonderful, hard-to-argue-with mechanism for Buddhists of 2000 years ago to cement themselves at the top of a hierarchy.
I suppose I'm a suspicious bastage, after all. :rolleyes:
I prefer to be born now than any other time and in the same place than any other place, because I'm enjoying my present life
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Any religion worth its salt is going to have a noble myth to explain away all difficulties.
Like why it appears that so many practitioners of the more dogmatic types of Buddhism, (lover’s of the book), after a lifetime of devotion, (all dotting their ‘i’s and crossing their ‘t’s) nevertheless seem to die unenlightened. This would certainly be too discouraging not to cloth in a story to mitigate it or remove the sting.
Or:
Why some people seem to be in an inner circle of buddies, with access to the noted big wigs or holders of the truth, thereby being treated (for all due purposes) as being a privileged elite.
Or:
Why you can’t do this on your own without the magic word, or the secret handshake.
Or
Why what they think is always more right than what you could possibly think.
Sorry, I’m not buying it.
I took what the Buddha said, both sensible and a great method, and looked for myself. Sure enough there it was, just what he had seen in doing that. What he saw wasn’t magic. It was right there for anyone to see, if they just looked. You just had to look directly at it and start to disrobe it from all of the confusions and religious stories that had been added to it over time.
Mind is a great collector of stories and illusions. Mind loves to weave her dreams.
I’m supposing that the Buddha didn’t buy much of this stuff either, when he said not to buy into anything you couldn’t see directly for yourself.
This statement was his ‘sword of discrimination.’ He knew that large vines of ongoing confusion would certainly grow up and incase his words over time.
Warm Regards,
S9
first , how to ensure that our next existence we could continue our Buddhist practice and make further progress from there ?
I think in the teaching we need to have this two criteria :
i) to be born either in the human and gods relams , as in the scriptures states that only in this two realms have the capcity to practice Buddha dharma
iia) we need to meet the good influences ( spirtual friends ) in life to link back to the practice of Buddha Dharma ,
iib) and more importantly we will not met negative influence that lead us to cut off the link with Buddha Dharma by slandering lives and the teaching
if you could agree ?
i) in Mahayana scriptures states that all living beings has the same potiential to attain Buddhahood, all have the same Buddha nature
ii) the buddha's behaviour demonstrated that he has a wide range of disciples , from the royality members, brahmin elites, wondering hermits/yogis to the uneducated blacksmith, washerman, butcher, widows and marginized folks
the buddha put on the robe made from cloth for covering the death , to demonstrate to the brahmin class that are no such thing as holy or unholy externally , the purity is derived from one's own mind
and the Buddha state that the true brahmin is not by birth but by one's virtues in daily conduct
Love & Peace
Jellybean
I don’t believe anyone here feels that Buddhism, or what Buddha said, is at fault. But I do believe that there are many faults within the Buddhist community, and what is commonly accepted as gospel must be investigated and weeded out diligently.
Certainly many of these errors in thought and judgment go directly back to human weakness. Yet, at the same time, they do lead people astray and cause unnecessary suffering, don’t you think?
: ^ (
Most of these problems are not created on purpose by any means. I see confusion as innocent. Yet they do exist, nevertheless.
I also believe that the fall out from these errors can sometimes act a barriers to wisdom, or even chase seekers away, who might have gained through Buddhism, simply because initially they were misinformed as to what the Buddha was talking about, and actually pointing out.
I fully realize that some of this thinking may not lead us directly into enlightenment, on the fast track, although corrections certainly might be clarifying in themselves.
Like some people like to weed gardens as a hobby or to relax. I find it edifying and nourishing to weeding out thoughts in search of wisdom. I also like to think that this benign enterprise on my part, may prove useful to others and lead in the direction of clarification.
There are many paths and although meditation (Dhyana) is a great path, and highly represented on this forum, it is not the only path, my friend. I consider myself to be more of a Jnana (path of mind) with a big scope of Bhakti (devotion via contemplation). Although I do mindfulness and meditation on breath (both as constantly as possible, at this time) to round it out.
Warm Regards,
S9
Nice name. : ^ ) It forms a beautiful picture.
Could you explain how you personally define rebirth?
Also:
Why do you see this as rare?
Thanx,
S9
Having a precious human rebirth is not something that happens all the time. Precious human rebirth is not the same as ordinary human rebirth. Precious human rebirth includes eight freedoms and ten endowments or opportunites.
The eight freedoms are the four non human states which include the freedom from being born in a hell realm.
Freedom from being born in a preta or hungry ghost realm.
Freedom from being born in a long life god realm.
Freedom from being born as an animal.
And the four human states which include freedom from being born in a place with no dharma.
Freedom from being born in a place where a Buddha has not appeared.
Freedom from being born with defective senses.
Freedom from being born with strong wrong views.
The ten endowments or opportunities are divided into two sets the five which pertain to oneself and the five which relate to external conditions.
The five personal are:
Being born as a human.
Being born in a central place where we can practice the dharma.
Being born with a well functioning body and mind.
Not having committed any of the five heinous crimes.
Having faith in the Buddha's teachings.
The five circumstantial include:
Being born in a time when a Buddha appeared.
Being born in a time when the Buddha taught the dharma.
Being born in a time when the dharma exists and flourishes.
Being born in a time when we can meet practitioners of the dharma.
Being born in a time when practitioners enjoy kind support.
How long have you been a Buddhist, excuse me for the off-topic question, I'll explain later
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Great post. I first heard this as an introduction of an audio teaching on "The Three Principal Aspects". It is a great motivator for practice when one realizes the amazing conditions and merit we need in order to have all of the above mentioned things. As another teacher put it, When will we meet with these conditions again? This is the time to practice.
General meaning refers to the generalized meaning , and specific meaning refers to the specific meaning according to the level of cultivation and specific dharma gate.
For example , at different level of meaning to , dharma , nirvana , buddhahood , bodhisattva etc
there are Nikaya teaching, Connecting teaching, introductary Mahayana , provisional Mahayana , gradual teaching, Sudden teaching, Specific Teaching, Complete Teaching etc
As the Great Teacher Tientai ( Chi-i , Zhi-i ) said as a buddhist practitioner that confused with the general and specific understanding may not get the practitioner any way in their advance cultivation.
<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->
What I've found useful in dealing with this is to study Buddhism first and gain knowledge of the core concepts that should exist within all Buddhist schools:
*Anicca... Impermanence
*Anatta... Selflessness
*Dukkha... Attachment/Craving that is the main problem to overcome
*Dependent Arising (or Dependent Origination or Dependent Co-Arising, etc.)
The Four Noble Truths
1: Life means or is in a state of dukkha (suffering, unsatisfactoriness, stress)
2: The cause of this dukkha is craving or attachment
3: The end of dukkha, called Nibbana, is release from craving
4: The Noble Eightfold Path leads to Nibbana... to liberation
The Noble Eightfold Path, which consists of:
1: Right View
2: Right Intent
3: Right Effort
4: Right Speech
5: Right Action
6: Right Livelihood
7: Right Mindfulness
8: Right Concentration
The precepts that Buddhists observe are contained in the teachings of the Noble Eightfold Path. The primary ones are to avoid killing, stealing, lying, sexual/sensual misconduct and intoxicants that can cause heedlessness.
These concepts are the real heart of the Buddha's message to the world. There is a lot more to learn (for instance the Theravada school's primary texts, the Pali Canon, are said to be 11 times the size of the Christian Bible). But if you start with the core concepts and internalize these truths, you will be much further ahead than if you choose to place equal weight on everything.
After you are comfortable with these teachings, I feel confident that whichever school you choose to belong to (you may have little choice depending on location), you will have a good footing and will know in what areas you need to put forth effort.
Newcomers to Buddhism will invariably become entangled in confusion in regards to which school they should choose. That the schools differ in approach but not at the heart is difficult to see through all the differences in practice they seem to have. I feel great empathy for their plight, though I didn't waste too much time on worrying about the different schools myself.
Few people when beginning out in Buddhism, which is more about personal investigation and experience, maybe even a search for meaning, rather than simply doctrine, do not have enough experience or information to choose a good fit in a school. : ^ (
Saying that any school will do, because they are all basically the same is a bit like saying grab any girl and marry her, because they all have the same sexual apparatus and are basically just girls. ; ^ )
Warm Regards,
S9
The only point I was making is that they all teach the same fundamentals and lead to the same goal, though they have different traditional ways of getting you there.
It's not that each will make you the perfect wife, but that each are equally capable of becoming pregnant and bearing you a child.
S: I believe I did mention certain schools would be better for certain temperaments. Ultimately it's a preference.
S9: You know what they say about, “The devil is in the details.”
When you say that it is just a temperamental decision which school you belong to, it makes it sound like it is an emotional decision, does it not? : ^ (
But if that is the case, why do so many Buddhist scholars spend a whole lifetime untangling Buddha’s words? Or for that matter, why aren’t we Buddhists knocking off becoming ‘Realized’ on a weekend retreat or two?
It would take us more than 2 weekends just to read all the sutras, let alone implement them into our lives.
S: The only point I was making is that they all teach the same fundamentals and lead to the same goal, though they have different traditional ways of getting you there.
S9: I bet if just you and I sat down and spoke at length about our Buddhist goals that there would be many places where we differed markedly, esp. since I am a Buddhist Mystic.
Maybe I am a particular “pain in the you-know-what,” but I can’t even get past the 8 folds ‘Right View’ without differing from the ethical point of view so many people seem to hold in that area.
S: It's not that each will make you the perfect wife, but that each are equally capable of becoming pregnant and bearing you a child.
S9: If procreation was your only goal in marriage, we could take care of that without even meeting, and fighting, and learning all of the hard lessons of intimacy, though they are well worth the effort. ; ^ )
S: You may have an easier time with one or the other but it depends on you and the effort you put in.
S9: Would that “effort” was all that was required in order to change a fight of wills into a marriage made in heaven, although it is definitely a necessary component of being married and living to tell about it. ; ^ )
I have been married for just about ever, and I love my best friend more than life itself. Yet, I must admit that I am still learning, because nothing/no-one stays still, and as we both continue to grow, and change, we once again must also adjust.
But, maybe I’m a little slow. ; ^ )
With Respect,
S9
Love & Peace
Jellybean
J: I don't have a school and don't intend too. I agree with alot of Buddhism but I don't want to have to stick to anything. I want my mind to be free and find it's own truth.
S9: The Buddha would want you to be totally free to find your own Truth. Buddha’s words should be a vehicle to help you along Your way, and not a prison to confine you or limit your journey.
If you are not 100% free to find you own Ultimate Truth, how than could you possible be either Liberated or personally Realized?
Any ism that would prohibit such a freedom, would certainly be an error.
Warm Regards,
S9
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Your welcome, my young friend. : ^ )
Miles of smiles,
S9
That's fine, but it's worth getting support and advice from people that are further along than we are, and occasionally it's good to have our ideas of "truth" challenged - otherwise it can just be a comfortable ego trip.
P
Just the fact that Joe is here speaking with us, says a lot about his willingness to listen, and his openness to other people’s ideas. He certainly has my "support" on his personal journey. : ^ )
But, you make a very good point, too, because ego is a “Rascally Rabbit” as the cartoon says.
I don’t think anyone on this forum can scratch his or her butt, without someone saying, “Shouldn’t you be scratching the other cheek." So he’ll get his share of input, never fear. ; ^ )
Your advice, I have found, is always both well meaning and worth listening to.
Bible Quote: "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity." Ecclesiastes
And said slightly differently:
"Ego, ego, all is ego."
Smiles coming your way, my e-friend,
S9
Ignorance is no defense; I think we may still hang you just for the practice. ; ^ )
Your e-pal,
S9
In our times many are practicing without a teacher; most could not endure the 17 years of wandering that Bassui invested in seeking to deepen his understanding visiting the various Zen Masters of the times. For many the question goes even further than finding a true teacher, it edges into the very unknown waters of seeing into one’s own mind without a teacher. But for many that is just what will happen. That is the power of asking and staying with your (own) questions throughout time.
Tokukei: Why don’t you wear
monk’s robes?
Bassui: I became a monk to understand the great matter of life and death, not to wear Buddhist robes.
Tokukei: Then are you looking into the koans of the old masters?
Bassui: Of course not. How can I appreciate the words of others when I don’t even know my own mind?
Tokukei: Well, then, how do you approach your religious practice?
Bassui: I want to clarify the source of the great Dharma handed down by the Buddhas and the patriarchs. After attaining enlightenment, I want to save the bright and the dull, teaching each one according to his capacity. My true desire is to relieve others of their pain though I myself may fall into hell.
Hearing this Tokukei simply put his palms together and bowed. A friendship grew between these two monks from that time.
Warm Regards,
S9
And what's wrong with that?
P
Probably nothing if you are so open minded that you are willing to cook up and eat a big batch of poison ivy if you can’t find any spinach. ; ^ )
And:
Your wife will let you think that all girls are the same, and live. : ^ (
Miles of smiles,
S9
There is value in all the Buddha's teachings and methods. Keep an open mind, try some things out and see what suits you. No one else can do that for you.
Wishing you well on your path.
Thank you! I enjoyed your post.
I am not a sutra scholar, sorry. : ^ )
But, I believe that Buddha said this just around the time when He was first Awakened. If I am not mistaken, if my memory serves me well, those were some of his first words right afterward ‘Waking up.’
And:
Interestingly, he also claimed to "gain absolutely nothing."
This could only mean that he found something that had been there all along, but went unnoticed previously.
I did Google just now “Buddha, we are all enlightened” to see if that might help you any, and quite a few readings appeared.
Happy hunting. : ^ )
If you run into any problems, just let me know and I will certainly try to help further in my limited capacity.
BTW, I enjoy you keen mind, and posting as well. : ^ )
Friendly regards,
S9