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What are your views regarding Kamma?
pegembara
Veteran
Kamma operates regardless of whether there is a view of self/ego or not. Only the terms and conventions differ.
Consider this story:
Suppose a certain Mr. Brown has an argument with his neighbor and kills him. Although he goes into hiding, eventually he is arrested and convicted. Later, even after having been freed at the end of his prison term, Mr. Brown still experiences remorse on account of his bad actions. He is often haunted by the image of the murder victim. His facial features and physical bearing change, becoming agitated, fearful and depressive. These mental states, coupled with his strong physical bearing, together cause him to become even more violent and bad-tempered. As time goes on his physical features take on coarse and hostile characteristics. He hides his suffering with aggressive behavior, becoming a danger to society and to himself, unable to find any real happiness.
In this example, we can say simply that Mr. Brown has committed bad kamma and suffered the results of his actions. This is speaking conventionally, and it is readily understood by most people. It is a way of communication, facilitating the exchange of ideas, but it speaks merely of the external appearance of things, or the grosser results of the relevant factors which are concealed within. It does not pierce the true essence of the matter, of the interrelated factors reacting according to the natural laws.
However, if we speak in terms of reality, we can speak of the essence in its entirety, referring to it as a process of events. For example, we could say that within the operation of this set of five khandhas, a mind state based on anger arose. There followed the mental proliferation in accord with that anger, leading to physical action. Conceiving in this way habitually, the mind began to assume those tendencies. Physical repercussions from external sources were experienced, adding to the unpleasant feeling, and so on.
Speaking according to the conditions in this way, we have all the necessary information without the need for reference to Mr. Brown or any kind of self. The process contains in itself natural elements of various kinds arising and reacting with each other to produce actions and reactions, without the need for a doer or a receiver of results.
Whether speaking according to the conditions as given here, or according to the convention as related above, the reality of the situation is identical -- neither is deficient or more complete -- but the description of things as a natural condition is given in terms of the natural facts, without the appendages of conventional imagery.
In any case, even with these examples, there may still be some doubt on the matter, so it might be helpful to conclude with a story:
Tit Porng[d] went to visit the Venerable Abbot of the nearby monastery. At one point, he asked:
"Eh, Luang Por, the Buddha taught that everything is not-self, and is without an owner -- there is no-one who commits kamma and no-one who receives its results. If that's the case, then I can go out and hit somebody over the head or even kill them, or do anything I like, because there is no-one committing kamma and no-one receiving its results."
No sooner had Tit Porng finished speaking, when the Abbot's walking stick, concealed somewhere unknown to Tit Porng, swung down like a flash. Tit Porng could hardly get his arm up fast enough to ward off the blow. Even so, the walking stick struck squarely in the middle of his arm, giving it a good bruise.
Clutching his sore arm, Tit Porng said, "Luang Por! Why did you do that?" His voice trembled with the anger that was welling up inside him.
"Oh! What's the matter?" the Abbot asked offhandedly.
"Why, you hit me! That hurts!"
The Abbot, assuming a tone of voice usually reserved for sermons, slowly murmured: "There is kamma but no-one creating it. There are results of kamma, but no-one receiving them. There is feeling, but no-one experiencing it. There is pain, but no-one in pain ... He who tries to use the law of not-self for his own selfish purposes is not freed of self; he who clings to not-self is one who clings to self. He does not really know not-self. He who clings to the idea that there is no-one who creates kamma must also cling to the idea that there is one who is in pain. He does not really know that there is no-one who creates kamma and no-one who experiences pain."
The moral of this story is: if you want to say "there is no-one who creates kamma," you must first learn how to stop saying "Ouch!"
Consider this story:
Suppose a certain Mr. Brown has an argument with his neighbor and kills him. Although he goes into hiding, eventually he is arrested and convicted. Later, even after having been freed at the end of his prison term, Mr. Brown still experiences remorse on account of his bad actions. He is often haunted by the image of the murder victim. His facial features and physical bearing change, becoming agitated, fearful and depressive. These mental states, coupled with his strong physical bearing, together cause him to become even more violent and bad-tempered. As time goes on his physical features take on coarse and hostile characteristics. He hides his suffering with aggressive behavior, becoming a danger to society and to himself, unable to find any real happiness.
In this example, we can say simply that Mr. Brown has committed bad kamma and suffered the results of his actions. This is speaking conventionally, and it is readily understood by most people. It is a way of communication, facilitating the exchange of ideas, but it speaks merely of the external appearance of things, or the grosser results of the relevant factors which are concealed within. It does not pierce the true essence of the matter, of the interrelated factors reacting according to the natural laws.
However, if we speak in terms of reality, we can speak of the essence in its entirety, referring to it as a process of events. For example, we could say that within the operation of this set of five khandhas, a mind state based on anger arose. There followed the mental proliferation in accord with that anger, leading to physical action. Conceiving in this way habitually, the mind began to assume those tendencies. Physical repercussions from external sources were experienced, adding to the unpleasant feeling, and so on.
Speaking according to the conditions in this way, we have all the necessary information without the need for reference to Mr. Brown or any kind of self. The process contains in itself natural elements of various kinds arising and reacting with each other to produce actions and reactions, without the need for a doer or a receiver of results.
Whether speaking according to the conditions as given here, or according to the convention as related above, the reality of the situation is identical -- neither is deficient or more complete -- but the description of things as a natural condition is given in terms of the natural facts, without the appendages of conventional imagery.
In any case, even with these examples, there may still be some doubt on the matter, so it might be helpful to conclude with a story:
Tit Porng[d] went to visit the Venerable Abbot of the nearby monastery. At one point, he asked:
"Eh, Luang Por, the Buddha taught that everything is not-self, and is without an owner -- there is no-one who commits kamma and no-one who receives its results. If that's the case, then I can go out and hit somebody over the head or even kill them, or do anything I like, because there is no-one committing kamma and no-one receiving its results."
No sooner had Tit Porng finished speaking, when the Abbot's walking stick, concealed somewhere unknown to Tit Porng, swung down like a flash. Tit Porng could hardly get his arm up fast enough to ward off the blow. Even so, the walking stick struck squarely in the middle of his arm, giving it a good bruise.
Clutching his sore arm, Tit Porng said, "Luang Por! Why did you do that?" His voice trembled with the anger that was welling up inside him.
"Oh! What's the matter?" the Abbot asked offhandedly.
"Why, you hit me! That hurts!"
The Abbot, assuming a tone of voice usually reserved for sermons, slowly murmured: "There is kamma but no-one creating it. There are results of kamma, but no-one receiving them. There is feeling, but no-one experiencing it. There is pain, but no-one in pain ... He who tries to use the law of not-self for his own selfish purposes is not freed of self; he who clings to not-self is one who clings to self. He does not really know not-self. He who clings to the idea that there is no-one who creates kamma must also cling to the idea that there is one who is in pain. He does not really know that there is no-one who creates kamma and no-one who experiences pain."
The moral of this story is: if you want to say "there is no-one who creates kamma," you must first learn how to stop saying "Ouch!"
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Comments
Karma Doesn't Explain Anything
Palzang
Palzang
“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.”
Sorry for hijacking the thread, Pegembara... I'm done.
Palzang
Palzang