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A question about desire
Hey guys, I'm just passing by, but I was really hoping someone here could help me out with a question I have about Buddhism.
From what I can gather, part of Buddhism is the forgoing of desire because it brings pain and sorrow. I'm not sure if I really understand this. How exactly does someone live their life without desire of any kind? Wouldn't you simply stop doing anything and just sit and do nothing at all times? You wouldn't have any aspirations or goals or anything.
I'm just trying to understand what the perspective is that having no desire is a good thing, and I don't mean to insult anyone by asking about this.
How does one live a life without desire, and how is it fulfilling?
Another question that's been bothering me is, what is the goal of meditation? Is meditation supposed to make life in general better, or are you meant to replace 'life' with simply doing nothing all the time?
My guess is this is a frequent misunderstanding that people have, and I'm sorry if it offends anyone or if you read this sort of thing too often.
Thanks to anyone who responds, and sorry if this is the wrong section to be asking this.
From what I can gather, part of Buddhism is the forgoing of desire because it brings pain and sorrow. I'm not sure if I really understand this. How exactly does someone live their life without desire of any kind? Wouldn't you simply stop doing anything and just sit and do nothing at all times? You wouldn't have any aspirations or goals or anything.
I'm just trying to understand what the perspective is that having no desire is a good thing, and I don't mean to insult anyone by asking about this.
How does one live a life without desire, and how is it fulfilling?
Another question that's been bothering me is, what is the goal of meditation? Is meditation supposed to make life in general better, or are you meant to replace 'life' with simply doing nothing all the time?
My guess is this is a frequent misunderstanding that people have, and I'm sorry if it offends anyone or if you read this sort of thing too often.
Thanks to anyone who responds, and sorry if this is the wrong section to be asking this.
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Comments
Well people usually think that apparently because on the dhamma cakka pavattana sutta this is stated:
So people focus too much on craving as being the only cause of suffering but not all suffering comes from craving. Sometimes we suffer out of ignorance or doubt, for example. Saying that desire is the root of all evil and that it should be eliminated is not a correct point of view.
In a sense, the desire to do what is wholesome is actually necessary.
I just don't understand how you can live a life without any form of craving or desire, because then...what do you do exactly? Nothing at all? Maybe its speaking of the negative feeling of craving as opposed to all forms of desire?
Well sometimes it gets confusing, these texts can be more dense than they appear. This sutta in special uses a single word to refer to a whole group of kleshas (aflictions) that can generate suffering. You really gotta ask yourself when you are reading suttas if they are making sense to you ("is desire really the only cause of suffering?"), and if what you are getting makes sense with the rest of the teachings, look for commentaries, etc. I recommend you take a look at a site called Access to Insight for more info on how to approach the suttas.
There is more than one kind and they have different goals really. In a general sense a meditation is just focusing in a object. That can be many things: a color, a feeling (like compassion), the breath, a corpse, a concept, and so on.
My question about meditation stemmed more from this view that meditation is a preferred state of being as opposed to walking around and doing other things. Meditation is something I practice myself, but I am only learning. (I have ADD, this is a way for me to learn to focus better.)
I am rather young, aging doesn't bother be a single bit right now, neither I am getting separated from anyone. In fact, I am also not in pain or despair. Maybe what the Buddha is really speaking of is the craving that, in a concrete form, is generating your suffering. That is how I understand it.
I think you're oversimplifying it. There is a lot of oversimplications and misrepresentations of Buddha Dharma fluttering about on the internet. To be honest it's best to begin exploring Buddhism on forums such as this, as lots of common questions (and misunderstandings) come up and are addressed quite well.
Let's forget about desire for a moment and instead focus on impermanence. Absolutely everything, by nature, is impermanent. This leads to suffering (dukkha), because we by nature become attached to things (people, objects, our sense of "self," etc), due to our attachment to what we call "self." The concept of anatta (not-self) becomes important here. When we truly understand that absolutely everything is impermanent, and understand anatta, then we can appreciate what we have, enjoy our experiences, and, when the time comes, let them go, without regrets or sadness. It's about living in the now, being compassionate now. Buddhism isn't about nihilism, at all.
I would focus on these concepts for now. These are the fundementals in my opinon and are important in understanding certain concepts of craving/desire.
As a starting point, Buddhism isn't about throwing away all desires. Everyone here has desires, I assure you. This is more something that inherently comes along with the ultimate realization of the Truth. But basically, desire causes suffering because 1) it draws our focus away from the present, and instead of ever appreciating what we have, we focus only on what could be or could have been 2) as everything is impermanent, our cravings will only lead to suffering in that they'll either never be satisfied or only temporarily satisfied and this is not true happiness 3) this can also be used in the negative sense, as in, the desire for something in your life to not be there, which obviously leads to suffering as well.
Anyway, this is just a starting point. I hope it's helped a bit.
Meditation is definitely not about "doing nothing." Meditation actually takes an enormous amount of dedication and practice. Meditation can be used for various purposes. What you seem to be talking about, though, is meditation in which we allow our minds to return to their fundemental nature. Through meditation we begin to see and experience things as they truly are. Search for Vipassana Meditation.
Another common kind of meditation is called Metta Bhavana (Loving-Kindness Meditation). This meditation is meant to develop an altruistic compassion for all living beings.
Please ask yourself, if desire in general is happiness, why do we satiate it?
For example, when hungry, why do we eat?
When lusty, why do we have sex? If lust was happiness, we would remain in a state of lust rather than satiate it.
If we examine sensuality, materialism or acheivement, the mind is happy when desire is satiated or fulfilled. When desire is fulfilled, it goes away.
Thus it is logical the ending of desire is bliss. However, experience is another matter.
In this state, life is completely fulfilled. Its like leaving the ghetto & owning the highest, most expensive house on the hill. There is no further to go, nothing further to do, because peaceful satisfaction is complete.
How does one live a life with desire, and how is it fulfilling?
First we want a good education, then a nice house, a car, a loving husband/wife, good children, holidays. When we grow old we want to remain youthfull and healthy. We want what our friends have and what society says we should have. When are your desires ever fulfilled?
One of the goals of meditation is to let go of desire and stop going after our desires which can never be fulfilled.
What is wrong with wanting those things? I am not a native English but don't words like craving, desire and wish carry different undertones between themselves? Correct me if I am wrong but craving implies a sense of urgency and abnormal intensity, to quote a poet, "like the one that escapes from the lips of a cardiac" while desire doesn't.
Also the pali word for this concept Taṇhā means thirst rather than desire. I think something is lost in translation here.
If you think about it, a Bodhisattva is all about desire.
Nothing wrong with having desires which is part of the human condition. But honestly ask yourself this "When are your desires ever fulfilled?"
A Bodhisattva is all about desire to save all others which in my opinion cannot be fulfilled. The Bodhisattva has no wish to "escape" from samsara out of love and compassion for all beings.
Then why have loving kindness for others if you do not intend to act upon it? Why live life at all if you do not intend to act upon life in any other way than to seclude to only one activity? If the ultimate goal of life is the state you described, why bother living? It seems rather purposeless that we have all this other stuff to distract us.
The Buddha achieved this state. I think he acted on it.
what excellent questions! Most of spend our lives answering them.
Someone mentioned that desire could more properly be translated as thirst. I think of it in more American (western?) terms as craving or addiction. In other words it's more intense and less healthy. When an enlightened being gets chilly she puts on a sweater. An unlightened being is always struggling to be the perfect temperature. The activities might look a little alike but they aren't.
A better metaphor would be eating. An enlightened being gets hungry and then eats something, stopping when full. Then goes on to other things until hunger arises again. Being hungry is no big deal. An unenlightened person worries about being hungry and keeps eating and eating until they are in agony from being stuffed and then sit around fidgeting until they are empty enough to eat again.
becoming enlightened means that you meet things that arise, treat them appropriately and then move on without regret or judgment. It's just a MUCH happier way to live.
The purpose of meditation is 2-fold. One purpose is to train yourself to let go of obsessions, cravings, addictions and worries. The second purpose is related and that's to train your mind to focus without wandering, to pay attention to the present moment. People don't like to do that because all pain is in the present moment. However, all happiness is ALSO in the present moment and it's important to train yourself to be there for it.
Meditation is both an act of courage and no big deal. You can learn to do it in five minutes and take a lifeitme to get even sorta good at it. On the one hand it's just sitting there doing nothing and on the other it's a hero's journey and that's no exaggeration.
In order to get rid of suffering in future lives.
That is the shepherd-like Bodhisattva, one of three kinds. The highest (king) one wants to be enlightened first in order to help other people.
food tastes better when hungry, sex is better when ur desperate for it.
but are u enjoying the food, or just the disappearance of the hunger? No-one said desire was happiness, but sometimes it makes things more enjoyable. Like having a cold drink whenever your really hot and thirsty as hell.
To put it simply, desire is not always a bad thing. Desire for enlightenment, for example, keeps us motivated and on the path. Once a person has achieved enlightenment many desires fall by the wayside. But the Buddha still ate food and drank water after he achieved enlightenment.
Buddhism is also called The Middle way because the Buddha learned that there was no benefit to be found in extremes of behavior or thinking. Truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. Nothing in the world is black or white, it's all just different shades of gray.
Buddhism demands and develops a more flexible mind and one of the best ways to begin training one's mind in that way, and that will also lessen your suffering considerably, is to look for the middle ground in all things as you go about your daily life.
Your question about meditation is more complex and I would repeat the suggestion that you look it up on Access to Insight because there you will find very useful and clear information. Needless to say, since you've already tried meditation, is that it's hardly 'doing nothing' and is, in fact, one of the hardest things a person can do. Even in its simplest, most basic forms.
Good luck with your investigation!
I did mention not acting to help others & living in total seclusion.
When one has attained this peace of mind, one is at peace. One is free.
One certainly has no thought of dying because one is living in peace.
This is real living, to breathe freely, inwardly content. There is no dying here.
The enjoyment you are referring to is the ending of desire.
But the shortcoming here is the desire returns.
Where as in meditation, the enjoyment is permanent because the ending of desire is permanent.
Desire & pleasure are not the same things. Desire is torment and pleasure is enjoyment.
The cycle of pleasure creating desire and desire leading to pleasure is known as addiction or samsara.
:smilec:
True. In Pali, tanha is craving where as samma sankappa is wise desire.
Also, for a householder, a good education, a nice house, a car, a loving husband/wife, good children and holidays are practical aspirations.
The Buddha praised a good education, home ownership, a virtuous wife or husband, good children & holidays for householders.
In Buddhism, the Buddha mentioned two kinds of desire.
The first kind is craving (tanha). This is the subject of the 2nd Noble Truth.
The second kind is aspiration (sankhappa). This is the 2nd factor of the Eightfold Path.
So, you are correct. One cannot live without any form of desire.
Regarding craving, all human beings are born with craving however the Buddha pointed out suffering & bondage come from craving.
Regarding aspiration (wise desire), this is required for all who wish to develop & improve their spiritual life.
Kind regards
DDhatu
:smilec:
At the moment desire springs up it creates in us a sense of lack, the pain of want. To end this pain we struggle to fulfil the desire. If our effort fails, we experience frustration, disappointment, sometimes despair. But even the pleasure of success is not unqualified. We worry that we might lose the ground we have gained. We feel driven to secure our position, to safeguard our territory, to gain more, to rise higher, to establish tighter controls. The demands of desire seem endless, and each desire demands the eternal: it wants the things we get to last forever.
But all the objects of desire are impermanent. Whether it be wealth, power, position, or other persons, separation is inevitable, and the pain that accompanies separation is proportional to the force of attachment: strong attachment brings much suffering; little attachment brings little suffering; no attachment brings no suffering.
Whatever one reflects upon frequently becomes the inclination of the mind.
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp3.php
For most people happiness and suffering depend entirely on external conditions. Free time becomes a bane, both individually and socially, a cause for boredom, misery and loneliness. This basic dissatisfaction increases in proportion to the amount of desire and the intensity of the search for sensual gratification. In fact, looking from a more introspective viewpoint, we find that the most important cause for social problems, such as drug addiction and juvenile delinquency, is the inability of people to be at peace with the present moment and their subsequent struggles to escape it.
In the event of having studied and trained in a religious teaching, and developed right views, desire can be turned in a good direction, aimed at realizing more long-term goals, which entails the performance of good works and, ultimately, the use of desire to abandon desire.