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Renunciation in Buddhism
Sorry about the ridiculous length of my question!! Hope you've got at least half a day free to answer ;-)
I'm 25, female, British and have been practising Buddhist meditation for about a year as well as studying the dharma and reading a lot about the topic. I have a question regarding renunciation in Buddhism.
I read a lot of Buddhist articles, discussions and things on the internet and in books. Many of them seem to say that renunciation (either physical or mental) of worldly possessions, hobbies and interests, singing and dancing, family ties, friendships, work etc is advisable in order to progress spiritually.
What is the real difference between the "worldly" life and the "spiritual" life? Most things I read seem to regard the so-called "worldly" life with contempt. What is this worldly life?
Is it chasing after money and fortune (which I do not do)?
Is it wanting a loving relationship (which I do, but how going to a monastery would help with that I do not know. Also - I do not particularly wish to renounce my desire for a loving relationship - to love and be loved seems pretty natural and human to me)?
Is it fulfilling a role in the family, thus providing love and support to those around (which I do, which I am happy to do, and which brings me and my family members around me love, security and enjoyment)?
Is it listening to music (which I do - I think Beethoven's 9th symphony is the greatest piece of music ever composed and I think, as many people before me have thought, that it has elements of the divine. The title is "Ode to Joy" and the words go like this: "All men become brothers." Is this an ill-inducing worldly pleasure? How about dancing and singing? I have sung in choirs before, and one of the most powerful and beautiful experiences of my life was singing in the chorus of Beethoven's 9th symphony. Over one hundred human beings, each in his / her own private world, coming together to create a harmony, singing about all men becoming brothers.... is this a worldly pleasure that it would be best to renounce?
Or perhaps it's work. I am a language teacher. Would it be conducive to my happiness to renounce this? Languages, changeable and unreliable as they are (yes, I know that important feelings and concepts cannot be defined in words), are also incredibly beautiful. Listen to Pablo Neruda's poetry (though it's nicer written in Spanish!): "I do not love you as the plant that never blooms, but carries in itself the light of hidden flowers" and tell me that's just another human foible, a worldly pleasure to be renounced!
Is it friendship with non-Buddhists? I've read many accounts of people renouncing their friends to pursue something "higher", more spiritual. I have a wide circle of friends, some of whom I feel a deep connection with. With the closest of my friends, I can talk about more or less anything. We can sit in silence and be completely at ease. We can often understand each other without having to say anything at all. We can laugh for no reason. These are probably just meaningless worldly delusions that should be given up for something better.
I do realise that I sound quite defensive in my question/s. This is because I feel very defensive at the moment. I feel like the Buddhist things I read are basically attacking me and my life as I know it.
I realise that most people will say that the choice between the spiritual and worldly life is just that, a choice, and that I needn't feel bad or attacked because there's no creator god or any person attacking me or whatever. However, I get the feeling that the message "you have a choice - either follow the spiritual path and become happier and enlightened, or continue down the worldly path and be miserable and suffer more. it's your choice, nobody's telling you what to do, but just remember that one direction will make you miserable and the other will make you happy. you won't be condemned to eternal suffering or anything like in other religions, just a few more lifetimes of misery. it's your choice!" - i feel like that isn't a choice at all. it sounds to me like a softer, more intelligent, more persuasive and rhetorical version of the christian "do this or go to hell" commandments. basically a very similar concept, just worded in a less threatening way.
Also, with regard to the things I mentioned above (family, music, friends etc) - I don't mean to say that these things will bring me permanent and lasting happiness. I know that listening to Beethoven's 9th symphony ten times in a row would lead me to get bored of it, and that's fine. I know that my parents will die one day. I can accept that. Friendships sometimes fall apart. Okay. I may not do this job for the rest of my life. That's fine - I'm aware that in a few years time I might want to do something else - that's perfectly fine.
I'd appreciate any advice you have on these matters. I'm feeling really quite low about it all at the moment.
Best wishes,
Katy Yelland
Renunciation in Buddhism
I'm 25, female, British and have been practising Buddhist meditation for about a year as well as studying the dharma and reading a lot about the topic. I have a question regarding renunciation in Buddhism.
I read a lot of Buddhist articles, discussions and things on the internet and in books. Many of them seem to say that renunciation (either physical or mental) of worldly possessions, hobbies and interests, singing and dancing, family ties, friendships, work etc is advisable in order to progress spiritually.
What is the real difference between the "worldly" life and the "spiritual" life? Most things I read seem to regard the so-called "worldly" life with contempt. What is this worldly life?
Is it chasing after money and fortune (which I do not do)?
Is it wanting a loving relationship (which I do, but how going to a monastery would help with that I do not know. Also - I do not particularly wish to renounce my desire for a loving relationship - to love and be loved seems pretty natural and human to me)?
Is it fulfilling a role in the family, thus providing love and support to those around (which I do, which I am happy to do, and which brings me and my family members around me love, security and enjoyment)?
Is it listening to music (which I do - I think Beethoven's 9th symphony is the greatest piece of music ever composed and I think, as many people before me have thought, that it has elements of the divine. The title is "Ode to Joy" and the words go like this: "All men become brothers." Is this an ill-inducing worldly pleasure? How about dancing and singing? I have sung in choirs before, and one of the most powerful and beautiful experiences of my life was singing in the chorus of Beethoven's 9th symphony. Over one hundred human beings, each in his / her own private world, coming together to create a harmony, singing about all men becoming brothers.... is this a worldly pleasure that it would be best to renounce?
Or perhaps it's work. I am a language teacher. Would it be conducive to my happiness to renounce this? Languages, changeable and unreliable as they are (yes, I know that important feelings and concepts cannot be defined in words), are also incredibly beautiful. Listen to Pablo Neruda's poetry (though it's nicer written in Spanish!): "I do not love you as the plant that never blooms, but carries in itself the light of hidden flowers" and tell me that's just another human foible, a worldly pleasure to be renounced!
Is it friendship with non-Buddhists? I've read many accounts of people renouncing their friends to pursue something "higher", more spiritual. I have a wide circle of friends, some of whom I feel a deep connection with. With the closest of my friends, I can talk about more or less anything. We can sit in silence and be completely at ease. We can often understand each other without having to say anything at all. We can laugh for no reason. These are probably just meaningless worldly delusions that should be given up for something better.
I do realise that I sound quite defensive in my question/s. This is because I feel very defensive at the moment. I feel like the Buddhist things I read are basically attacking me and my life as I know it.
I realise that most people will say that the choice between the spiritual and worldly life is just that, a choice, and that I needn't feel bad or attacked because there's no creator god or any person attacking me or whatever. However, I get the feeling that the message "you have a choice - either follow the spiritual path and become happier and enlightened, or continue down the worldly path and be miserable and suffer more. it's your choice, nobody's telling you what to do, but just remember that one direction will make you miserable and the other will make you happy. you won't be condemned to eternal suffering or anything like in other religions, just a few more lifetimes of misery. it's your choice!" - i feel like that isn't a choice at all. it sounds to me like a softer, more intelligent, more persuasive and rhetorical version of the christian "do this or go to hell" commandments. basically a very similar concept, just worded in a less threatening way.
Also, with regard to the things I mentioned above (family, music, friends etc) - I don't mean to say that these things will bring me permanent and lasting happiness. I know that listening to Beethoven's 9th symphony ten times in a row would lead me to get bored of it, and that's fine. I know that my parents will die one day. I can accept that. Friendships sometimes fall apart. Okay. I may not do this job for the rest of my life. That's fine - I'm aware that in a few years time I might want to do something else - that's perfectly fine.
I'd appreciate any advice you have on these matters. I'm feeling really quite low about it all at the moment.
Best wishes,
Katy Yelland
Renunciation in Buddhism
0
Comments
I am always handy for a straight forward answer.
There are two kinds of renunciation: (1) renunciation based on an ideal or superstition; and (2) renunciation based on insight or dispassion.
When one decides to enter the monastery based on an ideal or superstition, the life of a renunciate is very difficult. But when one enters the monastery due to being dissatisfied with the options the world offers, the life of a renunciate is very easy. Concentration or meditation bliss comes easily.
You appear to have been drawn in by the popular Buddhist advertising. Unfortunately, this kind of Buddhist evangelism has grown in the world, contrary to the Lord Buddha's wisdom.
This is superstition. Rebirth was taught by the Buddha in a society that already held rebirth as a pre-existing belief to assist the worldly folks to do good and avoid self-harm. The Buddha did not teach people rebirth to motivate them to ordain. The Buddha taught the worldly person if they do good, they will be reborn in heaven or as a high human being. But to ordain because one believes in rebirth is wrong. Buddha taught faith in the higher dhamma arises from the experience of suffering & unsatisfactoriness. If one ordains due to superstition, one will spend their monastic career teaching superstition because their mind will not penetrate that state which is free from suffering.
Sure Katy. My advice is to do two or three 10-day silent meditation retreats. If you realise this is not for you then the monastic life is not for you.
The Buddha offered so many beautiful & wise teachings for laypeople. If meditation does not bring your mind deep satisfaction & bliss, then I advise you study the Buddha's teachings for laypeople.
In brief, if you want a loving relationship, then that is the life for you, to pursue wisely & skilfully.
Kind regards
DDhatu
:smilec:
It the UK, monks such as Ajahn Sumedho can generally offer the 'right teachings'.
An example of right teachings from the Buddha himself is the Sigalovada Sutta, which is otherwise known as The Layperson's Code of Discipline. Here, the Buddha advised the responsibilities of a monk or spiritual teacher towards a layperson is as follows: It is notable these responsibilities do not include convincing or urging laypeople to ordain as monks & nuns under the threat of eons in hell & suffering. This kind of threatening behaviour is that of religious cults, which are also found in Buddhism.
Another example of right teachings by the Buddha is as follows:
Some sound and straightforward words from DDhatu
My understanding of the importance of renunciation, in my life and practice as a layperson, is in being able to look at suffering and understand it.
Can relate to your example of Beethoven's 9th Symphony .. my son is learning to play the piano and has Ode to Joy as a practice piece this week.
Like my mother was with me at this age, I do hope that he will wish to continue to study, practice and develop his obvious musical ability ( as his mum I am not that impartial, his teachers also recognise his talent !! )
I understand that he either will or he won't, and that there are many possible reasons that may contribute.
If he does, will it result in ending suffering ? No
As with wishing for material security, a compatible partner, fulfilling and productive work ; developing our talents, sharing them with others and expressing our unique creativity are worthwhile activities and the intention of individuals persuing these outcomes can be wholesome.
It is not black and white.
....... Its all beautiful Dharma.