Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Letter From Osama after 9/11

comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
edited October 2005 in Faith & Religion
I found out today that Osama Bin Laden actually sent a letter to the USA when he did the 9/11 crash. I also found out that it wasn't published in very many papers.



Sunday November 24, 2002

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
(Q2) What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

Comments

  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited July 2005
    I have always been of the opinion that our media do not print OBL's letters because he makes too may good points. It is his coclusions and 'solution' that are objectionable.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited July 2005
    I agree.
  • edited July 2005
    Wow - that was very interesting. I agree with Simon as well.
  • edited July 2005
    Ok, so this letter really has me thinking. How can we be sure that OBL is the person that really wrote that letter? And don't you think that a lot of the points he made about the US can also be made about other countries? I do not think that there are any perfect nations/countries in this world. We all do things that are "wrong", but why kill people over it??
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited July 2005
    I don't know the whole story behind the letter. I heard it was only published in a few papers. But as far as I have heard it is real.
  • NoiNoi
    edited July 2005
    Are terrorist religious extremist? Can one not be a terrorist and be a religious extremist? I think that they are just using Islam as a tool to justify their behavior. I don't think Islam is bad at all. I think most religions are used for the good of humanity. It just depends on the person using it; Osama will have to face his own fate. Not trying to sound harsh but, I don't understand the concept of blowning-yourself-up, or committing suicide to prove a point.
  • emmakemmak Veteran
    edited August 2005
    That is the frightening thing - they seriously think they are doing the right thing....
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited August 2005
    I think it is important to remember that 'suicide bombing' is not a solely jihadist tool. It has been used by the Tamil Tigers, who are Hindu, and the Jewish hero, Samson, is clearly a pre-bomb suicide terrorist.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited August 2005
    Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Jain, Buddhist, extremist, terrorist, religious fanatic--these are all words. Merely concepts.

    In my view it is not a 'Muslim' or 'Hindu' who bombs subway trains. It is aversion and delusion that do these things. It is not a 'fanatic' or 'extremist' who is a terrorist. It is a human being caught in delusion who thinks that they are doing the right thing. It is the diseases of the mind that cause people to act with violence. Religion, color of skin, politics--these are just excuses we give for our wrong doings.

    As followers of the Buddha we must see the sunnata of all conditioned things. That includes our skin color, religion, politics, nationality, gender, and our very existence. In the ultimate reality these things are merely illusions.

    In my opinion there is no worldly solution. We cannot force people to become enlightened so that they see their errors. We can only teach them by example. Practice and receive the fruit of that practice. That is a Buddhists best offense/defense to such things as violence in the world. That is what the Buddha himself did. He practiced and achieved the fruits of that practice. People took notice and began to follow him to hear his teachings. The ones that saw the benefits and skillfullness in his way took up the practice themselves. The ones who didn't went the way of worldly affairs and continued to live in their delusions. It will always be that way. Some will see and others will not.
    Our duty is to show people, by example, that there is a better way. The way of the peaceful warrior.
  • NoiNoi
    edited August 2005
    Thank-you simonthepilgrim and Elohim. You both have given me some enlightened me. I didn't mean to sound as if I was lableing anybody. I just don't understand the concept of committing suicide in general.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited August 2005
    No need to apologize, I was not saying that you or anybody else was wrong in any way. I was just expressing my opinions on the matter. Nothing more, nothing less. Everyone is free to feel the way they do about any given situation.

    I try to look at all things through the eyes of Dhamma to give me a better perspective. In this way I do not see a 'Muslim terrorist killing people for Allah', I see instead 'Defilements in a human that causes them to act with violence out of ignorance'. In that way I cultivate more comapssion for that person or group. I must remember that what 'I' believe is also full of defilements. None of us are perfect and we all need to work on removing our own suffering and the suffering of our friends, families, country, and world. Some people use very unskillful ways of doing that like 'suicide bombing' while others find more skillful ways such as 'meditation' and 'removal of the defilements'.

    As for understanding suicide, I can undestand it in the form of believeing it to be a short-cut out of suffering. I used to believe that until I discovered the Dhamma. Other people perhaps see it as a way to make their lives important, give it meaning, or change the course of history. Each person sees things in a different way. Each person does things for a different reason.

    The 'Muslim terrorists' as we call them, they seem to believe that certain people are 'bad' and 'wrong' and 'evil' for their way of life. They want these people to leave, and I guess die if possible. I am not 100% positive for their 'rational' motivations, but I can say that it is greed, hatred, and delusion that are the 'real' motivators. Their error is not noticing that it is the defilements which cause them to act with violence. They believe that they are doing the 'right' thing. That is the power that the defilements can have over us. They can make us believe that whatever horrible, painful, cruel, silly thiing we do is for the best. They are the true masters and we are their unwitting puppets. We think that all of our ideas are 'our' ideas. Little do we realize that the majority of them really belong to lobha, dosa, and moha. That is why the Buddha spent all of his efforts into understanding them and eventually uprooting them. He inturn gave us his trainings so that we may do the same thing. :)
  • angulimalaangulimala Veteran
    edited August 2005
    hi,
    i like to add some information here. it's also the guilt of some preachers, who preach hatred against other people(non muslim). an elementary teacher taught her students to prepare for the next crusade war. there are many examples like that here in my country, they even use the megaphone so people can hear their preach.
  • comicallyinsanecomicallyinsane Veteran
    edited August 2005
    What country do you live in?
  • angulimalaangulimala Veteran
    edited August 2005
    hi comic,
    i live in indonesia
  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited August 2005
    Indonesia currently is the worse country to live in for Muslims... Not because there are other religions but then there is a fierce struggle between moderate and extreme Islam, unlike most other countries, which can be clearly defined "extreme" and "moderate". I'm glad Singapore is such a great place. (Yes! No Muslims here to kill you!) <Sidenote: Let's just say I'm proud of my country... Our security agencies managed to stop and arrest bombers before they managed to bomb the American strongholds in my country some years ago!>
  • Argon.AidArgon.Aid Veteran
    edited September 2005
    I agree with Elohim.The religion,Our faith does not give us the reson to start conflicts among everyone.Let me take the 911 incident as an example.While we agree that religion conflicts is one reason,still ther is no cause for violence.
    As a Muslim Myself,I am aware that Muslim does not encourage violence.Like the killing of innocent lives.That is something that I feel is unacceptable.Its the thoughts.They THINK that they are fighting for their religion.But does fighting for our religion means sacrifing large numebers of people.Our religion encourage harmony among everyone.
    Remember what Chamberlain said,its better to jaw jaw then to war war.Omitting the fact that he is an American,his words clearly show that violence is not going to solve everything.Anniliation of other religion is only for supremacy of ours,not strengthning of faith.
  • edited September 2005
    Thank you for raising this point, however if I may correct you on two points a) Chamberlain was British b) its better to jaw jaw then to war war was attributed to two British Statesmen: Sir Winston Churchill and Sir Harold MacMillan.

    Wise words, although many would say that Chamberlain, despite not using this phrase, did in fact spend to long talking and hiding his head in the sand. Engaging in "Jaw Jaw" allowed Hitler to prepare, plan and start the second World "War War". Dialogue is clearly better, however it requires that both sides adhere to this principle. Sir Winston Churchill was recently voted the "Greatest" Briton of all time, in a recent British Poll.

    Despite this my Grandmother still refers to him as a Warmonger!!....perhaps he was more of a diplomate than she realised!

    By the Way.....Hi and Welcome Good Sir, it's nice to have a Muslim contributor!!
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    I'm in agreement with your Grandmother, Abraham!
  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Darn! This means that me and Argon's history books are in serious trouble. It clearly states that Chamberlain was BRITISH. I think Argon mixed that up. But then it did say that jaw jaw came from Chamberlain in his policy of appeasement! Man... This gonna hurt our history teacher... Our exams are next week!
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Ajani: Chamberlain was British but the "jaw-jaw" comment was made by his successor as Prime Minister of Great Britain, Winston S. Churchill. Indeed, this is somewhat ironic because Neville Chamberlain was, indeed, a partisan of what came to be called "appeasement" and Churchill was a 'hawk'. The remark about "jaw-jaw" was made in the White House in 1954, some years after he helped to orchestrate the slaughter of WW2 (and the disastrous loss of SDingapore to the Japanese).
  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited September 2005
    Rats it really means our history book has some error... I will check it out with my teacher on Monday.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited September 2005
    My reference is the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (1992 edition) which cites the "New York Times" of 27 June 1954.
  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited October 2005
    My history teacher said that the quote was interchangedly used by both gentlemen... And it wasn't a really big deal as to who said it... Well maybe not to her... But for me in a year's time I'm going to sit for my 'O' Levels and if I have to mention this quote, and I credit it to the wrong person... I wonder what will the British markers at Cambridge think...

    "Man, all these Singaporeans suck at names or something?" Haha...
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    If your papers are marked in the UK, attribute it to Churchill. Chamberlain is considered to have been a weak Prime Minister and remains unpopular. The quotation tends to be used in a positive sense (as Churchill meant it) and not as an argument for appeasement. Remember that Churchill was against a policy of appeasing the Axis powers and that he is still considered to have "won us the War".


  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited October 2005
    OK I'll remember this... My favourite from him was when he said that if the British Commonwealth lasts for a thousand years, men will say, this was their finest hour... That was like... cool... Anyway I know it's a little off-topic here... But why was he voted out in favour of Clement Atlee after the war? I think he could be as well a peace-time minister as a war-time minister...
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    Why did the Conservatives lose the General Election after the War?

    There were a lot of reasons. One was that the "Churchill myth" did not have real depth. The elctorate, particularly the Forces, understood that he represented the old, pre-War way of doing things: the way of aristocracy and privilege. Never forget that he was a Marlborough, and had been heir to the dukedom for a while. He had little or no time for social reform or for the 'common people'.

    Even before the War, people were getting sick of the old ways. By 1945, with the country nearly bankrupt, Churchill and Eden, Butler and the rest offered nothing new. The Labour Party, with Atlee, Bevin and Bevan were promising to implement the Beveridge Plan. This they did and, although it is in some difficulties, we still have its flagship, the National Health Service. Their plans for massive intervention by nationalising rail, coal and steel, and of social house-building certainly forestalled the risk of revolution by our returning troops. And, as in 1918, this was a real possibility. The fear of it made demobilisation very slow

    Although he had 'led' Britain through the War, people were tired after 6 years of fighting. They wanted a change and Churchill represented all that had gone before.

  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited October 2005
    Well at least he was in office again after Atlee... And he was a legend... History would have changed so much if he was PM from the start instead of Chamberlain...

    Back to the topic of discussion we got here... I know the al-Qaeda was "built" by the US to fight the Soviets some decades ago... But when did the enmity all start? Would Osama have allowed his gang to accept help from a country they hated so much? And how long has extremism been in the world... It seems to have appeared only during Osama's times...
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    ajani_mgo wrote:
    ................. Would Osama have allowed his gang to accept help from a country they hated so much? And how long has extremism been in the world... It seems to have appeared only during Osama's times...

    In Robert Fisk's new book, he reports that, at one meeting with OBL, he made the point about US money and arms. OBL denied having received any - this was during the Afghan war against the Russians. The money and weapons went to the warlords. OBL's "Arab Legion" was financed by OBL! He did this when the cowardly princes of the House of Saud refused to go and fight beside their Afghan brethren.

    The tension between Islam and the West has never really died away. It was apparent in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, within our own lifetimes, with 'ethnic cleansing' and concentration camps. One of the reasons why Austria is so opposed to Turkey's membership of the EU is that they have never acknowledged the slaughter of the Armenian Christians.

    The real trigger for the present confrontation was the decision by King Saud to call on the US to liberate Kuwait. The garrisoning of 'infidel' troops on the holy ground near Medina was anathema to many Muslims - and still is. If you look at OBL's earliest statements, he warns the West, over and over again, to withdraw troops from Saudi Arabia or face consequences. Our governments are so blinded by their belief that Arabs are backward people that they took no notice. Results? Look around.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited October 2005
    some years after he helped to orchestrate the slaughter of WW2 (and the disastrous loss of SDingapore to the Japanese).

    Simon,

    What do you mean "slaughter of WW2"???

    I'm curious as to what your thoughts of WW2 are.

    -bf
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    BF, my friend,

    My thoughts on WW2? Very complicated. First of all, I do not see it as separate from WW1 in essence. As someone has said, "There was one War, with a pause in the middle for Germany to regroup." And I think that history will see it that way.

    You probably don't want my views on the Sykes-Picot agreement or the Treaty of Versailles, the weimar Republic or the sabotaging of the League of Nations. By 1939, the inaction of the Allies had rendered a resumption of the European conflict almost inevitable. US expansion into the Pacific and the strangling of Japan was ratcheting up problems there, too.

    Once again, the Democracies failed to support democratic opposition to the Dictators, just as we have failed to do in Iraq and Iran. We also managed to renege on our commitments to weaker areas and nations, permitting not only German rearmament but, also, the assimilation of Austria into the Third Reich.

    The use of the Luftwaffe in the Spanish Civil War was in clear breach of the peace accords but we did nothing. As in the former Yugoslavia, we did too little, too late across Europe.

    Having abandoned Czechoslovakia to the Reich, we were morally - as well as legally - obliged to go to war over Poland, which, I imagine, is exactly the game plan run by Berlin.

    It is part of the British national myth that we faced the Hun with bulldog courage. Whilst there is some truth in it, this story is far from complete. Murders, rapes and looting during the Blitz were endemic. Germans and refugees were interned in terrible conditions. Conscientious objectors were brutally punished. I think there is a lot that has simply disappeared into national denial.

    Since the War, there has been an extraordinary sanctification of plucky little England facing the massive enemy. We were lucky that the German High Command was under the thumb of paranoid inefficients who were worse at their jobs than were ours! At least the Imperial General Staff could ignore Churchill's loony ideas - most of the time.

    When I speak of slaughter, I am thinking of the bombing of Coventry which could have been evacuated; the bombing of Dresden; the Great Patriotic War between the Reich and the Soviet Union. Churchill was complicit in the slaughter of the cossacks and the Soviet acquisition of Eastern Europe. In this, he was supported by Roosevelt, who had written in 1940 (I think) that Europe would have to accept that it would be under Russian rule for at least a century.

    I could go on for ages on this subject but I also recall that Gandhi was asked about the possibility of opposing the National Socialists in the Third Reich by peaceful means. He replied that he believed it possible and that it would take a great deal of pain and many deaths.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited October 2005
    I don't get it, Simon.

    So were the Allied thinking nations lax in their participation? Should the nations have gone to war to stop what was being propogated in Germany in the 30's?

    Even though I am no historian - I think the US should have got involved much sooner than they did. But that thinking could be from my ignorance.

    I also understand, being that humans are running things, there are going to be big screw-ups. But, wasn't the ending of the Nazi Regime a good thing? I understand that towards the end of the war - it became a big pissing match between "super" powers and their abilit to lay claim to as many "spoils" as possible - without using such a distasteful term as "spoils" to rest of the world population. I also understand there were many jabs back in forth regarding where various "terms of surrender" were signed and the locations, etc.

    But, overall, I thought the ending of Jewish cleansing was a good thing?

    Must be my glossy American history books that leave me so ignorant.

    -bf
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2005
    It is not ignorance, BF, don't worry. It is in the interests of some that the reality of the 1918-1939 situation be 'spun'.

    Have you seen Saving Private Ryan? It typifies how we treat the War: US film omits all mention of the other, simultaneous Allied landings. British films, like In Which We Serve, show plucky Brits. And the sacrifice of millions of Russians in their War, which made the opening of the Second Front possible is airbrushed out.

    The story of the slaughter of European Jewry, the Roma and others is a horror which we did nothing to stop, or even to hinder. Indeed, we turned refugees away in their thousands -unless they were rich or famous. Of course, putting an end to the Third Reich was a good thing but we had to proceed to amputation because we left the wound to fester all through the '30s.

    And the way in which we treated the occupied territories is a story that has still to be told. I was in Vienna two years after the end of the Occupation: rape victims and 'disappeared' were the stories everywhere.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited October 2005
    Well, it is ignorance on my part.

    I mean, I have seen documentaries where it talked about how the US balked at joining the fray - how we lied about running supply lines to Britain - to keep the relationship between the US and Britain going - but how we lied through our teeth so we didn't get accused of anything. Of the turning away from Jews from our shores and such.

    I thought it was weak of the US to balk so long when people by the millions were being slaughtered. Just like I thought it was weak of the US to wait until the cleansing taking place in Bosnia was so bad - we had to do something about it. But!, someone touches our "oil" friends and we're gettin' all up in that biatch.

    WW2 has been romanticized in American history. And, I should remember that the US from the 40's really is only 60 years removed from the US of today. And we see some of the fiascos going on today - and our government didn't have the media coverage tracking their movements and calling into account their actions like media of the 40's. I'm sure anyone questioning what the government was doing in the 40's would have been labelled a Commie and shot.

    -bf
  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited October 2005
    "There was one War, with a pause in the middle for Germany to regroup."

    That's a good one for my history next time... "Discuss the consequences of WWI and how it started WW2..."

    Anyway Arabs backward? Never! They were ahead of us once with their scientific ad mathematical advancements... And now they are doing it with their cities! Have you heard what they gonna build? Astonishing... And the world's most expensive hotel is somewhere off in an island there... I saw pictures of it in an email once, the toilet alone was like the size of my house... OK maybe it's a little hard for all you non-Singaporeans to imagine... Take the size of your front yard doubled...
Sign In or Register to comment.