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zen

TheFoundTheFound
edited December 2009 in Buddhism Basics
zen figured me out

people are bewildered about zen, I get why now...after having a nice soak in the bath,

I remembered zen teachers and such, leaving famous, confusing-like zen-style quotes and koans...notoriously.

I reflected on them...the 'confuse' is....or the mystery
is because the teachers, they can only direct students in the direction of a place they have never been themselves.

my new opinion is a person can't experience Zen.
no wonder it is so elusive.

Comments

  • TheFoundTheFound
    edited November 2009
    lol in a week no one replied to this post...even though this may be the most important i've ever made.. no one?
  • skullchinskullchin Veteran
    edited November 2009
    I'm sorry, what you said does not make much sense to me, I'm a bit of a newb. Since this thread is called "zen" I hope I may ask a question. If this is too off topic I'll start a new thread. Let me know :) Anyhow, What makes zen different from other forms of Buddhism?
  • dogsbollocksdogsbollocks
    edited November 2009
    my new opinion is a person can't experience Zen.

    there is wisdom in this. correct, grasshopper, a person, ego, identity, seperate self cannot experience the essence of zen...you can't figure it out rationally, mentally, logically, emotionally - but you are encouraged to try - sincerely, diligently, exhaustively...

    the hot bath could have yielded daydreaming and distraction (probably did, some) solely - but - mindfulness occurred. more to come. don't give up.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited November 2009
    A Zen teacher just put forward this question-statement to some folks. It is not a Koan strickly speaking......


    "When one is sitting in a basket and wants to get out?"
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited November 2009
    people are bewildered about zen, I get why now...after having a nice soak in the bath,

    The problem is that when buddhism went to China they dropped the indian philosophy that came with it for cultural reasons and, being quite pragmatic on their beliefs, chinese turned it into direct experience, "the zen of everyday life", so to speak.

    Our society is more akin to the philosophical structure of indian thought, so when confronted with the pragmatic Zen it is a bit of a shock, a sense of "is that it?". If you really think, hard, about what they are trying to state in Zen you will that it is actually not a shortcut, as I have read in some books, but just a change of focus.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Nameless. Will you Pleeeeeze give that little guy the carrot. He keeps getting suckered in every time and it painful to watch.:lol:
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    NamelessRiver wrote: »
    Our society is more akin to the philosophical structure of indian thought, so when confronted with the pragmatic Zen it is a bit of a shock, a sense of "is that it?". If you really think, hard, about what they are trying to state in Zen you will that it is actually not a shortcut, as I have read in some books, but just a change of focus.

    I think this misrepresents Zen. The teachers generally have a pretty strong grounding in canonical Mahayana scriptures.
  • jinzangjinzang Veteran
    edited November 2009
    TheFound wrote: »
    people are bewildered about zen, I get why now...I remembered zen teachers and such, leaving famous, confusing-like zen-style quotes and koans...notoriously. I reflected on them...the 'confuse' is....or the mystery is because the teachers, they can only direct students in the direction of a place they have never been themselves.

    The quotes are difficult to understand, deliberately so, because they're meant as tests. Someone with an understanding born of meditation will see the meaning hidden in the contradiction. Someone who doesn't have that understanding will only see the contradiction. If they weren't confusing, they wouldn't be good tests.

    There are plenty of people who have understood Zen and they usually aren't shy about saying so.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Indeed Zen is not a puzzle and the presentation is not intended to be puzzling. It is actually intended to be the opposite. Very direct. The structure and discipline of Zazen is also very direct.
  • TheFoundTheFound
    edited November 2009
    but i guess what I wanted to uncover and share was,
    don't you realize the potential of this?!
    If the Buddha himself didn't have the opportunity.. to properly mention or explain, what we call: ZEN.

    I think it's a HUGE addition we are MISSING completely, it's well hidden in plain sight.....and/or a useful tool for us all...
    this "ZEN....ish...ness....icity".....

    it's really ...I believe of great benefit to the worlds population...

    it's a big..."inverse" and it can add like...+xx% to your reality model...umm....neh? backwards thinking and hmmm:cool:
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited November 2009
    TheFound wrote: »
    lol in a week no one replied to this post...even though this may be the most important i've ever made.. no one?

    Your OP was a statement that your mind thought fit perfectly into your own contextual framework when you said it. So now what?
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited November 2009
    TheFound wrote: »
    but i guess what I wanted to uncover and share was,
    don't you realize the potential of this?!
    If the Buddha himself didn't have the opportunity.. to properly mention or explain, what we call: ZEN.

    I think it's a HUGE addition we are MISSING completely, it's well hidden in plain sight.....and/or a useful tool for us all...
    this "ZEN....ish...ness....icity".....

    it's really ...I believe of great benefit to the worlds population...

    it's a big..."inverse" and it can add like...+xx% to your reality model...umm....neh? backwards thinking and hmmm:cool:

    Buddha didn't need to mention or explain Zen and his students weren't necessarily any less for him not having done so. It was/is implicit in the teachings. Now, students of buddhadharma also tended to think they could find answers in the sutras when they were only finding expedient means to the answers. For those folks, Zen can be a big and helpful thwack though for those entrenched in conceptual understandings of the dharma.
  • NamelessRiverNamelessRiver Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Nameless. Will you Pleeeeeze give that little guy the carrot. He keeps getting suckered in every time and it painful to watch.:lol:
    That is Dukkha The Rabbit, he is never getting the carrot but, somehow, time after time, he keeps missing the point. :D (but the truth is I just got bored of the fish avatar and the yoda using lightning bolts was too pretentious ehehehe)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited November 2009
    Good call with the yoda avatar, Skywalker.
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited November 2009
    jinzang wrote: »
    The quotes are difficult to understand, deliberately so, because they're meant as tests. Someone with an understanding born of meditation will see the meaning hidden in the contradiction. Someone who doesn't have that understanding will only see the contradiction. If they weren't confusing, they wouldn't be good tests.

    There are plenty of people who have understood Zen and they usually aren't shy about saying so.

    Understand is a bit of a misnomer in Zen, but I can understand why and how that word is used on the forums. That said, practice is most essential, and part of that training for a Zen student, is the physical hard practice of zazen. As Sasaki Roshi might say, 'More zazen'.

    Gassho.
  • jinzangjinzang Veteran
    edited December 2009
    The term can be misunderstood, not because the experience is so grand, but because it's so plain. But most other terms such as seeing or "not seeing" are more likely to be misunderstood.
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited December 2009
    I think understanding though usually refers or is 'understood' as intellectual understanding, and that is its slippery grasp. But yes OK point taken, any word perhaps can be taken in the wrong way, or can help point in the right direction. Thanks for all your help today.
  • Geoff-AllenGeoff-Allen
    edited December 2009
    Try plugging this sentence into Google and SEE what turns up -

    The quick and easy answer is that crazy wisdom is the deliberate opposite of conventional wisdom

    Enjoy!
  • kicktotheheadkicktothehead
    edited December 2009
    Thanks Geoff-Allen, that was a comical interview.


    Richard......"When one is sitting in a basket and wants to get out?.....just get out?
  • Subjectivity9Subjectivity9
    edited December 2009
    Problem being:

    We don't know what the basket is, or even which way out is. So, we dig in deeper.

    S9
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