Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
What's your take on Shambhala (the one started by Chogyam Rinpoche)?
Simplify
Veteran
It seems straightforward, and there appears to be a lot of support for individuals. It also avoids the Buddhist mythology (for the most part), which makes it more accessible to me since I have trouble believing anything (like rebirth, past miracles, etc.).
How do y'all see it from your own perspective? Anything I should watch out for? Anything that's lacking in the Shambhala tradition that might be important?
How do y'all see it from your own perspective? Anything I should watch out for? Anything that's lacking in the Shambhala tradition that might be important?
0
Comments
also, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche is referred to as Trungpa Rinpoche rather than Chogyam Rinpoche. Chogyam is another title that he carried, Trugpa identifies his lineage and tulku status.
just a little fyi.
Good to know!
I can't remember where I read it... But it said something along the lines of "Until a country has made the Buddha in their image, Buddhism has not arrived in that country"
When I read that I tried to think of what an "American Buddha" would look like... I came up with a chunky guy with a slick-back hair cut, sunglasses, wearing typical clothing giving us a thumbs up and a big arrogant smile.
These are way too many warning flags to be ignored. We need Western Buddhist structures, but don't forget America is also the birthplace of the Church of Scientology.
But beyond that, a uniformed person in a special position of authority has one function, no matter what words you wrap it in. Buddhism doesn't need its own police force. If you have guards around, then emotionally you're training people to believe there is something or someone out there that they need protected from. Just who or what are they protecting a box and the inner elite from?
No, this is troubling. It shows a mindset that goes against everything that Buddha taught.
This discussion is a bit old now but in case anyone does read it: my introduction to Buddhism has been through my local Shambhala group in the UK.
What drew my attention was the fact that their approach seems to be an attempt to make Buddhism relevant to westerners with superimposing a (foreign) subculture (or at least keeping this to a minimum). For example, there are no lengthy pujas in Pali, Tibetan or Sanskrit. All chants are kept to a fairly short length and are in English. The point here is to remove obstacles that may deter potential students who would be uncomfortable with sub-cultural immersion. For instance, one can read many good books on Buddhism that are relatively free from particular (eastern) cultural references. But if you then go along to a group that is essentially participating deeply in a foreign cultural experience, this may be dramatically different to one's expectations. More about this later.
Weekly Shambhala training is mostly on Shamatha-Vipashna meditation interspersed with walking meditation, Shamatha yoga (well stretching really) and various occasional teachings through readings, discussions and dialogues. The group meets in a rented Yoga Gym and sitting practice is done on regular sized oblong cushions about 6 inches high. All pretty straight forward really and no sign of uniformed guards.
I spent a year reading books on Buddhism before deciding to seek out a group. Many of those books were good. My first experience with Shambhala was good and continues to be so. However, just to test my perspective, I decided to miss one evening's practice and go to the local Theravada group for the experience. In summary, it was disappointing and I later reflected that if it had been my first experience of a Buddhist group, it might well have been my last. The reasons were:
- there was no attempt to identify newcomers and make them feel welcome
- there was no attempt at induction into meditation practice
- there was a fairly long set of chants in Pali which made the experience feely overly religious
- following a recital of a Sutta (I forget which) for victims of the Japan earthquake, the Bikhu attempted to explain the purpose of chanting and prayer in supernatural terms (yes really!)
- half the group were ethnically Thai and the Bikhu held separate discussions with that group in Thai which hindered group unity
- the facilities were poor: meditation cushions were a random collection of inadequate and generally poor quality and were insufficient in number, making the final meditation quite difficult
I could go on but the point is, my first experience with each group was starkly different. It felt like the subculture of the Theravada group was incongruous (out of place) and actually got in the way of the Dhamma. So far, this has not been the case with the Shambhala group.
I hope this has been informative. I would be interested to know what other's first experiences of this school were, other than at Boulder Colorado!
The notion of secret dharma, or "inner circle" is not about keeping secrets, but respecting that certain teachings aren't skillful to certain minds.
As a simple example, it would not be prudent to teach an elementary school child that there is no such thing as right and wrong. They need moral teachings to direct their minds until their interconnectedness is developed, which happens as the frontal cortex begins to evolve as they reach late adolescence and into early adulthood. This is a simple example. Some things are not taught to some people, not because "knowledge is power" as known in the west, but because truth wielded unskillfully is as unhelpful as delusion.
Remember that the buddha taught that when speaking, it isn't enough for it to be true, it must be true and skillful.
So, we teach the kids not to hit because its wrong, teach the teenagers not to hit because it hurts other people, teach the karmically aware that hitting others hurts themselves with exactly the same force in which it hurts others, and then notice that masters hit only when it is skillful to do so. Caution is prudent whenever we are observing new teachings or situations, but paranoia is an assumption that is unskillful to make. We wish to make sure that we eat good food, that's a noble drive. However, there is little cause to hear "secrecy" as "abuse". If you can notice that people develop differently... what one calls "secret" could really just be "waiting until it is ripe to harvest" or "waiting for someone to be ready before introducing certain ideas"
P.S. Sounds like you got a good teacher, aMatt. Congratulations!
There is no way for you to know that unless you know the secrets. Wrong views of emptiness can cause a lot of harm. That is why its a bodhisattva vow not to teach emptiness unless the student is in the greater umbrella of the teachings to establish a right view.
Why do you think people say Tong Len is harmful to untrained? It is an emptiness teaching. Some of the higher teachings such as vipassana can be shown to anyone because they are self sealing. If the student is not ready they don't get the result, but no danger.
Those aren't secrets but semi. You may also research tantric practices for reasons why these aren't shared. There is a lot of information on the web if you are interested. Theres also resources for choosing a teacher that people can use. To make sure they are acceptable.
Even that artist and his wife who were stripped yada yada. They didn't leave the retreat. I mean someone can conjecture that they were some kind of brainwashed timid waifs but I doubt it. I think they got something out of Trungpa's message.
(Nice artwork, BTW. Looks like watercolor...?)
So I guess I have had a bit of an experience. An example is that she doesn't teach much theory on emptiness she just points to the 'space' in an experience. When you have an emotion that you bite on. Anger or whatever. Then you notice a space and it is so light! Thats the positive side but the other makes it so you can't (I) devour her teaching you have to go gently.
It isn't really like trig and algebra... its more like jumping dirt bikes across a gap. First you have to learn to petal. Then you have to learn to remove the training wheels. Then you have 15 more steps before you jump the gap. If you sent a baby onto the ramp, or the baby's unskillful parents, it would cause broken bones and even more mistrust.
You seem to turn this kind of notion into something demonic, and sadly that certainly exists out there. I bet there is some western mistrust of catholicism or something that's helping you remain paranoid.
It sounds like you are stuck on this notion of secrecy, I wonder what's that about? Something happen in your past?
With warmth,
Matt
I can vouch for "compassion in many people in Shambhala". My experience has so far been good (see above). All the training compares favourably with other groups and the approach to newcomers is gentle and welcoming. Having said that, there are no large centres here as there are in the US and perhaps its different in those.
"Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: 'What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. Whosoever may think that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him, it is such a one that would have to give last instructions respecting them. But, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such idea as that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him. So what instructions should he have to give respecting the community of bhikkhus?'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html#fist
I take the Pali Canon as my standard in the practice. It's worked out really well so far.
I am unaware of the specific sutta reference, but there is one where the buddha talks to a man and tells him the conditions for right speech. If it is untrue and unhelpful, he will remain silent. If it is true and unhelpful, he will remain silent. If it is true and helpful, he will say it. Anyone know the specific text?
Boom.
I was interested more in the line "I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine". Which seems to me to completely undermine everything about tantric lineage.
I really like it.
I would highly recommend it.
And, thank you for the link! I think it clearly represents the notion of lineage. But we all have different responses to suttas, isn't that great?
Its great to hear others with a positive experience with the centers in question, mine was beautiful and evolutionary.
And buddha was a bodhisattva.
They were Hare Krishnas, and there to recruit the students. Great, friendly, understanding people. Their religion was totally nutzo, in my opinion, but they brewed a great cup of coffee and the girls behind the counter were pretty, even if they refused to date students. I was a little older than the teenagers in the freshman class and not so shellshocked by life, being on the GI Bill, so I didn't feel the need to worship their divine guru, but they were not brainwashed zombies. In fact, studies later showed that the young people who did join eventually drifted away as they got on with life and counted their time handing out flowers in airports and such as an interesting learning experience.
I suppose what I'm saying is, first, don't confuse a welcoming atmosphere with any special wisdom about what is being taught. Second, while there are red flags you should be aware of in the group's structure and rules, know they are potential problems. You can't deny the history of groups centered around one controlling authority who begin issuing ever more strict rules. That's a big warning sign.
But, don't think you're in any actual spiritual or physical danger in most cases. Just listen to your inner voice. If it tells you something isn't right, then it isn't right. Don't let anyone tell you to ignore that voice. Then at the worst, you'll come away with an interesting learning experience in your journey.
Its a shame these days that whenever we think someone is doing something helpful for us, especially strangers, we automatically think that there is an ulterior motive involved. I guess it comes from our consumer society where we are bombarded with products delivered by deception. The sales pitch is delivered in such a way where we think we are being helped out and it is only later that the true intentions of the sale person is exposed. As the consumer becomes more cynical the sales methods become more deceptive.
Unfortunately these exposures (especially if you've been burnt in the past like my wife and I have) plant karmic seeds of extreme scepticism or rather cynicism (or at the extreme hostility, or anxiety, or unease.....) which is a shame as there are people legitimately trying to help out there.
I still find it difficult maintaining an open mind in these situations and need to battle against the inner distrust that arises automatically, that is the "yeah but what's the catch" thought is floating around constantly.
So with this mentality, warning signs could be generated unreasonably. Yet we are stuck with our previous experiences and have only our reason (including research) and our mindfulness to counteract automatic and unwarranted responses. What's the answer, we just do our best to do what we think is right, I suppose?
Personally I find the idea of a spiritual warrior a great idea (ie it has karmic appeal to me), though I have no direct exposure or knowledge of the Shambhala groups, I still have a great interest to investigate the teachings ideas involved in Shambhala, yet to date have not done this, I also love the symbol that Shambhala use on their books though I don't know why. I also have a great interest in Trungpa Rinpoche's teachings yet have not read any of his work as yet. One of the first books on my list is Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism (http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/978-1-57062-957-0.cfm).
That's the thing with Buddhism, so much to learn, so little time! The other thing is it can be great fun as well, after all how fortunate are we to be on the Great Journey?
Note to self: stop over using the word great
But the local Shambhala center charges WAY too much. They only rent a room one night a week, so I can't understand the hundreds they charge for lessons.
I go to another centre in town, where the teachings are free because the membership is actively involved in fund raising. AND they support a resident teacher, a monk from the Dalai Lama's monastery. That's the spirit of teaching Buddhism, in my mind.