Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
nature of mind
Has any one here had the nature of mind introduced to by a master. I would love to recieve teachings from a master but wouldnt know where to look here in the U.K
0
Comments
Hi Elliot,
I can not direct you to anyone right now. However, I can give you some ideas on topics to research. For starters, maybe check out: Alaya Vijnana -- Store Consciousness By Ven. Dr. Walpola Rahula
The Buddha divided consciousness into 6 doors; these are the same as the five senses and the mind. Later Buddhists divided mind into various levels; ultimately arriving at 4 levels of mind. So this left 9 levels of consciousness.
The topic arouses of intense debate among Buddhists. Some say there are only 6, 7, or 8. The Ninth is particularly controversial; some say it is redundant and covered by the 8th. There are also different takes on the difference between the 6 and 7th. There is nothing specific in the Pali Canon to prove that the Buddha talked about any more than 6 levels. However, there are hints that can be plausibly construed as references to deeper levels of mind.
The Buddha sometimes referred to mano-vinnana; other times he used the word manas. Are these two levels? He also talked about mind as citta. Is this different from manas? Moreover, he said that citta is initially pure, becomes defiled, and can be re-purified. Does this imply a conditioned citta that is different from the pure or unconditioned?
Here is one take on the 6th through the 9th Consciousness. I am omitting the first 5, those are just the ordinary 5 senses:
- 6th. Mano-vijnana 末那識 {mona shi / mana-shiki}: The brain and central nervous system. The ordinary centralized discriminatory sense that perceives phenomena.
- 7th: Manas 末那 {mona / mana}: The cognitive mind that creates the ego and engages in reflective or abstract reasoning.
- 8th: Alaya 阿頼耶 {alaiye / araya}: Conditioned Consciousness; stained by accumulations of agantukehi kilesehi {adventitious defilements) or agantukehi upakkilesehi upakkilittham (adventitious minor defilements).
- 9th: Amala 阿摩羅 {amoluo / amara}: Immaculate Consciousness; the luminous mind free from veils, afflictions, obsessions, fetters, inflow-outflows, or inverted views. The Buddha Nature.
That is only one very tentative take. Many would disagree.Are these different doors you come acrossthrough meditation, and what about 1-5?
I read What the Buddha Taught right after it came out. I do not not know if he went into Alaya in the revised version. have not read it yet.
The first 5 are just the 5 senses doors. The eyes, the ears, the nose, the mouth or tongue, and the body. The 6th is the brain. Each of these gives rise to a sensory consciousness or vijnana. The Six Sensory Consciousnesses {Sad-vijnana/vinnana} are:
Each of these 6 faculties has a sensory object:
- Form
- Sound
- Aroma
- Flavor
- Texture
- Phenomena
Mindfulness of, or attention to, these is part of the 4th framework of mindfulness. The 7th through 9th, in my view, are just expansions of the 6th. I think they would be discerned as part of the 3rd framework. The 4 frameworks of mindfulness are mindfulness of body {kaya}, of feelings {vedana}, of cognizance {citta}, and of mental formations {dharmas}.Here is the article: Alaya Vijnana -- Store Consciousness By Ven. Dr. Walpola Rahula
Better formatting: link<qtlend></qtlend>
I mentioned in a post earlier how inspired I was after reading the Herman Hesse novel Siddartha (not the siddartha, just a character living in the time of Buddha), where he chooses not to follow Buddha and the monks as he needed to find and see the truth and this could only be done alone without clinging to a dharma.
Raises an intersting point as the Buddha said one cannot reach enlightenment without a master
Did the Buddha say that? My understanding is that Sammasambuddhas and Pratyekabuddhas have no teacher; they figure it out all by themselves. The difference is that Pratyekabuddhas do not teach others.
I am going by the strict definition used by Theravada. It is basically that the Sammasambuddhas and Pratyekabuddhas entered the Dharma Stream without hearing the Dharma preached by any Buddhas. Most of us are Shravakas; in that we take up Buddhism by taking refuge in the Three Treasures, after having "heard the Dharma."
This applies to the 'Trace' Awakening. Of course, the inner 'Source' awakening is something we all do alone. The distinction between Source and Trace baffled me for more than 30 years.
Hi Elliott,
Could you give a quote or link from the Tibetan Book of the Dead where you read this please?
Many thanks,
Dazzle
Manas the Buddha did not call consciousness. In Pali, the word for consciousness is vinnana. Vi = direct and nana = knowing. Consciousness is the primal awareness that functions with the sense organs. Consciousnes cannot think. This function of mind that thinks, the Buddha called citta.
Alaya can occur to any consciousness. One can have obscured ear, eye, nose, tongue, body or mind consciousness. The Buddha did not use this term alaya. Why would he? Once the mind is free from kilesa, the six types of consciousness remain functioning. Alaya is a product of the citta rather than consciousness. Whilst consciousness certainly becomes tainted by defilement, it is not necessary to ascribe another kind of consciousness because as I said: Consciousness is direct knowing or cognition. Its function is to cognise. The same applies to amala. When the Buddha referred to the luminous mind, he generally referred to the citta (but not always). Why? Because the citta is the source or creator of defilement rather than consciousness.
As such, the later Buddhists called any aspect of mind 'consciousness' because this consciousness was required for rebirth.
The later Buddhists came up will all kinds of notions about consciousness that the Buddha did not teach, such as rebirth consciousness, relinking consciousness, storehouse consciousness, continuum of consciousness, alaya consciousness, etc.
If we understand the Buddha only taught consciousness is cognition or sense awareness, then we will not be confused by the propagators of rebirth consciousness.
To the contrary, without these additional kinds of consciousness, all of the post-Buddha rebirth theories
fall apart.
Good Stuff. I wonder about the translation of Mahadevalla Sutta, because that seems to be describing Vedana; not citta or vijnana. I also wonder about Vi = direct. My understanding is that is functions like dis- in the old sense; indicating a dividing or an intensive. I think vijnana could mean discrimination; or sensory consciousness or be used as a general term for consciousness. I would agree that the 7th, 8th, and 9th should be cittas; not manas. In any language, meanings of similar words get conflated over time.
There are several similar words: sanna / samjna; panna / prajna, jnana, vinnana/ vijnana. These might be cognates of cognate, cognition, diagnosis, gnosis, and know. Jna = gno / gni? Also, vidya, veda, vedana are possible cognates of wit, wisdom, and wiccan; perhaps view, and video as well. Then there is pashya / passa as in vipassana. I do not know of cognates, seems to carry the meaning of cernere {sift, sort} or maybe plere {fill}? Also, lok = look?
I have seen lots of different takes; so I go with non-attachment to definitive views.
I think the discourse emphasises cognition whilst the translation seems to emphasise the object of cognition. I once listened to Bhikkhu Buddhadasa speak on the five aggregates, who said these paragraphs (such as the following) are very difficult to translate from the Pali: My point is the suttas align consciousness with cognition via the sense organs.
The Mahadevalla Sutta does align consciousness with wisdom but for me, these are two separate things. Whilst these translations are unreliable (Bhikkhu Bodhi's is different), I think the Mahadevalla Sutta is commenting on the relationship between wisdom & consciousness rather than on consciousness per se. In other words, there is consciousness affected by ignorance that leads to suffering. It follows wisdom & consciousness are not synonymous as the translation of the Mahadevalla Sutta may seem to state.
I suspect that what the Buddha meant by vinnana would be vi- in the sense of apart or divisions; the same as the vi- in Vinaya. So it would be the 6 categories of sorting things out, the senses and brain. IOW; organic consciousness. Then, with vipassana and visuddhi I think the vi- is an intensive, indicating some spiritual.
However, I think the vijnanvadins took vijnana as an intensive; and to them it meant, in terms of the 7th & 8th, what the Buddha meant by citta. iirc, Cit means to accumulate; as does the ala of alaya. What do you think the Buddha meant by Citta?
http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/country.php?country_id=76
Very well described in the book, MIndfulness, Bliss and Beyond by Ajhan Brahm. I don't have a teacher but I have spoken to the local monks numerous times. None of them gave a description as good as that in the book so its highly recommended
Yup chitta literally means mind. :smilec:
Glad to hear that
Its interesting to see the different views on mind. I see the mind as a sense organ; but there are other aspects of mind. The one which I speak of from the Tibetan tradition called true nature of mind, this being the pure unspoiled/ un-thinking and un-judging mind. These moments of mind are experienced at subtle levels of meditation and are the seeds of enlightenment.
But are also experienced in day to day life for very brief moments, but according to the Tibetan book of the dead it can only be properly introduced by a master.
I live in Surrey, just outside of London. Why you ask? (I suppose your link will answer that question lol, just checking it out now)
I do however recommend avoiding the Dhammakaya Sect and New Kadampa Tradition. More info refer to <cite>www.buddhismaustralia.org/cults.htm</cite>
You might like to try these Theravada beginners meditation classes which also include some instruction in Buddhism I think there's one in Richmond.
http://www.samatha.org/london/index.php
Kagyu Samye Dzong is a very nice Tibetan Buddhist centre run by really friendly people. You wouldn't have any problem getting there, its near to a tube station.
http://london.samye.org/london/
Kind regards,
Dazzle <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
R: This applies to the 'Trace' Awakening. Of course, the inner 'Source' awakening is something we all do alone. The distinction between Source and Trace baffled me for more than 30 years.
S9: Now you have me baffled. : ^ )
Want to share what you figured out?
Respectfully yours,
S9
Due to this chest cold and flu like symptoms, I feel like I got kinked in the citta 心. My brain is reading words out of order; so I hope you do not mind typos. In Tiantai, there is concept called Trace Gate & Source Gate. The latter, the Source Gare relates to original awakening. The former, the, Trace Gate relates to attained or acquired awakening. The Source Gate is the One Vehicle. The Trace Gate is the Three Vehicles teaching. That is just my tentative take.
Thank you for that answer.
I will Google it for more information, and we can talk later.
Take it easy my friend, and don't answer me again (no matter how much I beg) until you feel some better.
; ^ )
Know that I am thinking about you, and wishing you well.
Friendly Regards,
S9
This being the cyber age, there are actually a lot of teachings online. We have over 170 video teachings available (free), and most of these are nature of mind teachings of one sort or another. You're welcome to take a look and see what you think. Just go to www.ustream.tv/palyulmedia . (I think that's the right URL - I'm at work and can't get to it from here).
Palzang
Hi Elliot,
Pointing out instruction is usually related to Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
The fourth empowerment in any major Vajrayana empowerment is also designed to fulfill this purpose.
Even in Mahamudra and Dzogchen the pointing out instruction is somewhat ritualized and there are even further elaborations to the practice.
Usually it is reserved for after one has completed at least some form of preliminary practice but there are certain teachers who give it without the completion of ngondro.
I have received the pointing out instruction in both the mahamudra and dzogchen traditions. If you want any more info just send me a pm.