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New and curious
Hello
I've just read a book called "The Buddah, Geoff and Me" which I found fascinating. I've always been interested in Buddhism, but not enough to actually do anything about it (that sounds dreadful).
I am at a serious crossroads in my life, this time is very painful for me and I am floundering slightly. Buddhism seems to be insinuating its way into my life in a number of ways - books, friends, the odd magazine article....I keep coming across it. So, I am thinking of learning more. The universe seems to be hitting me with a brick.
One strange question - in the book I've just read, he talks about chanting a lot, but doesn't mention what it is until the end, where he says the chant is hidden in the text. Can anyone enlighten me as to what it might be (sixteen characters apparently). And how does anyone go about chanting?
I have tried to read a couple of other books but they seem a bit dry and intellectual for me, I find it hard to undestand the concepts. Is that normal? Is Buddhism always so complicated?
I'd really like some advice on where to start, how do I find out more, where should I go, what should I be doing to try and incorporate Buddhism into my life?
I have never been a religious person, but spirituality has always been a part of my life. I'm not sure I want to become "religious" but from what I can see, Buddhism is more a way of life - the kind of life I'd like to aspire to.
Can ayone help with all my weird questions? Thanks in advance.
I've just read a book called "The Buddah, Geoff and Me" which I found fascinating. I've always been interested in Buddhism, but not enough to actually do anything about it (that sounds dreadful).
I am at a serious crossroads in my life, this time is very painful for me and I am floundering slightly. Buddhism seems to be insinuating its way into my life in a number of ways - books, friends, the odd magazine article....I keep coming across it. So, I am thinking of learning more. The universe seems to be hitting me with a brick.
One strange question - in the book I've just read, he talks about chanting a lot, but doesn't mention what it is until the end, where he says the chant is hidden in the text. Can anyone enlighten me as to what it might be (sixteen characters apparently). And how does anyone go about chanting?
I have tried to read a couple of other books but they seem a bit dry and intellectual for me, I find it hard to undestand the concepts. Is that normal? Is Buddhism always so complicated?
I'd really like some advice on where to start, how do I find out more, where should I go, what should I be doing to try and incorporate Buddhism into my life?
I have never been a religious person, but spirituality has always been a part of my life. I'm not sure I want to become "religious" but from what I can see, Buddhism is more a way of life - the kind of life I'd like to aspire to.
Can ayone help with all my weird questions? Thanks in advance.
0
Comments
You've come to the right place! The members of this sangha are all very helpful and will do their best to give you good advice.
My main piece of advice would be to set aside a 20 minute period every day and practice basic sitting meditation.
In order to do this, at the start, you'd be best finding a quiet place to sit and then cross your legs (or sit in a chair if you can't) - close your eyes and start to count your breaths.
One breath equals one inhalation and one exhalation.
Count 10 breaths and then start over again.
Try to do this without thinking about other things - it's incredably hard, at the beginning!
I'll let Simon fill you in on a good beginner's book - he's our resident walking bibliography!
Great to meet you - let me know how it goes.
Dave
thanks for yoru reply. I have actually meditated in the past - I did a course many years ago, but haven't done it for a long time. To be honest, I'm not sure what benefits, if any, I gained from it. I will certainly try the 20 minutes a day breathing technique. Knowing the way my mind is overactive, I'm sure I will find it very difficult. But, I will keep at it. A friend of mine once did Vippassna (spelling?) meditation and raves about it. She's been talking about it a lot recently, telling me the benefits / rewards.
I have had a look at the other thread about books, and am going to Ottakars today to see what I can find.
Another question for you - what exactly is a "sangha"?
Thanks again
Fee
Good luck with the meditation - try to approach it with no goal of benefit in mind.
Do it for the sake of doing it...
BSF mentioned me, so here I am. Welcome!
Chanting as a spiritual exercise is part of many branches of Buddhism and, most particularly, of the Nichiren Buddhists. Their chanted mantra is "Nam myoho renge-kyo". There is more information about Nichiren all over the Net, it having been popularised in the '80s and '90s as a sort of 'prosperity practice'. Mor info and links at:
http://www.nichiren.info/
The term sangha has a number of meanings in Buddhism. In the West, it has come to be used as BSF defines it, although you will still find many Buddhist writers who disagree. The sangha is traditionally explained as the community of the ordained, who have "gone forth" and whose task includes learning and reciting the sutras/suttas. It is thanks to the fact that this tradition was started immediately after the death/perinibbana of the historical Buddha (Shakyamuni) that we have such a vast canon of his teachings.
Most importantly, the Sangha is one of the Jewels of Refuge. As with the other two Jewels (the Buddha and the Dharma), this is twofold:
* it is a Refuge of Cause in that we seek to find companionship in the Noble Sangha established by the Buddha. It is our refuge in the Noble Sangha which urges us on when our courage fails.
* it is also a Refuge of Fruition. In this, we recognise that the perfection of the Sangha is not something which can be attained or towards which we can move. It is the underlying reality, fully enlightened and liberated, and in this we are at one.
As for beginners' books. I always recommend Thich Nhat Hanh and Sogyal Rinpoche to Westerners plus as much exposure to Buddhist expression as possible and, if at all possible, contact with informed teachers.
BTW, welcome from a fellow newcomer
I'd tell you basically what the Buddha told his new students - examine the path closely, make certain that it's right for you before charging ahead. Caution and diligent study are both pluses. Furthermore, check out the various flavors of Buddhism. If following a strict moral code seems appropriate for you, then you might be interested in Theravadan Buddhism, the kind practiced in most Southeast Asian countries like Thailand. If meditation is more appealing, try Zen as meditation (or zazen as they call it) is the main practice there. You mentioned chanting, so if that appeals to you, check that out. Or if the more psychological approach of Tibetan Buddhism is more appealing, then try that. Of course, I'm oversimplifying here, but each school of Buddhism has its own particular flavor. You have to find the one that speaks to you. Find a temple near you and just go and see what's happening there. It might take a long time to work through this. Read as much as you can too, but don't just depend on reading. Experience is equally important on this path.
So anyway, this is an exciting time for you. You have my best wishes on your new path!
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Palzang
Simon, I've just bought "Miracle of Mindfulness" and "Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" so hopefully they will help me understand more. I had a look at the website you mentioned, haven't read any of it yet because it seems so much and I am strapped for time today, but will soon.
Palzang, thank you for your words. I can't believe I have accumulated good karma, so I am patting myself on the back. It's amazing to think that many lifetimes have brought me to this now. I just hope I can understand and try and live life compassionately. Unfortunately, I don't know of any temples around here - I would very much like to visit one and speak to people there. Anyone know of any in sw England?
Starstuff and Comically Insane - thanks for the welcome.
Devon Vihara
Hartridge Buddhist Monastery
Odle Cottage,
Upottery, Honiton,
Devon EX14 9QE
UK
Tel: 01404 89 1251
Fax: 01404 89 0023
Email: hartridge@onetel.com
I'd also recommend this site as a starting point to explore basic buddhism, floow the many links, and you can also here some traditional chants.
http://www.parami.org/duta/buddhist.htm
PJ - thanks for that, I'll try to get there for a visit - if that is possible. Can people just visit these monasteries?
Aarrgghhh too many questions!
I have been looking at the websites that have been suggested, and have another question. How come there seem to be so many different strains (for want of a better word) of Buddhism and how does a newcomer to it decide which one to follow? If I wanted to become a Catholic for example, I'd have certain rituals to go through to become one, or if I wanted to become a Muslim. Certain ways of doing things How come it is so different for Buddhism, or am I just mistaken?
Thanks again
Explore them as much as possible, be opened and let the different branches of energy flow freely in you. Take your time, don't rush. Choose ONLY ONE that is most comfortable for you to practice and learn. Be focused.
Each of us is different and our IQ and EQ levels are different. There are many strains or branches or traditions, all because we have different speed and comfort level in learning Buddhism. These different strains are actually different foundations for different groups of learners, but all of them has the same destination, that is Enlightenment.
cheers,
Buddhism has so many strains because overall it isn't a very dogmatic religion. People are permitted and even encouraged to find their own path, instead of unifying around a strict set of beliefs and rituals. It also blends well with many other religions, which is where many elements like deities come from. While you should study up on many paths to open your mind, don't feel like you have to actively choose a path. Believe what makes sense to you, do what is beneficial for you. You'll find that your own path might overlap some with a specific type of Buddhism, or several types, or may be quite distinct. And you don't have to worry about going through some elaborate initiation ritual to be a Buddhist - though by all means have one if it is something that helps you.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Buddhist Meditation Group - Redruth
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contact: Daniel Davide
81 Gwithian Towan, Hayle TR27 5BU
Tel: 01736 753175 (Daniel Davide)
or 01736 759032 (Lee Stevenson)
Affiliation: Hartridge Buddhist Monastery, Devon [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cornwall Serene Reflection Meditation Group
Meetings: The Resource Centre, Mont Wise, Newquay
Tel: 01841 540556 (Betty Hahner)
or 01637 860435 (Jeanie French)
Tradition: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives, Soto Zen
Founder: Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett
Affiliation: Throssel Hole Buddhist Abbey
[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Friends of the Western Buddhist Order[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] *
* Illogan, Cornwall
Dharmacharini Sampada
Tel: (01209) 890 997
* Saltash, Cornwall
Dharmachari Jayaratna
Email: dharmachari@hotmail.com
Tel: (01752) 851 321
Mobile (07816) 653 306
Or contact Viramitra on 01392 432405
Email: viramitra@hotmail.com
Web site: www.buddhist-peninsula.org.uk
Tradition: Western Buddhism[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Kagyu Samye Dzong Cornwall
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hedra, Grenville Road
Lostwithiel, Cornwall, PL22 0EP
Tel: 01208 873785
Email: garuda@talk21.com
Tradition: Tibetan, Karma Kagyu
Affiliation: Kagyu Samye Ling Monastery (Scotland)
Spiritual Director: Akong Tulku Rinpoche
Teachers: Lama Yeshe Losal, Lama Zangmo, James Wainwright[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Penzance Buddhist Meditation Group
Contact: Wilf Frith
10 Nancherrow, St. Just, Cornwall TR19 7PW
Penzance, Cornwall, TR19 7PW England
Contact: Wilf Frith
Tel: 01736 786473, Fax: 01736 786473
Email: wilf@phonecoop.coop
Web site: beehive.thisiscornwall.co.uk/buddhist
Affiliation: Friends of the Western Buddhist Order
Teachers: Visiting FWBO order members[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The West Country Sangha
Contact: Colin Defoe
127 Monks Road, Exeter EX4 7BQ
Tel: 01392 431555
Email: cfdefoe@yahoo.com
Affiliation: Community of Interbeing, UK
Whitecross Buddhist Meditation Centre
Postal Contact: The Trustee
Gilly Lane, Whitecross, Penzance, TR20 8BZ
Tel: 01736 762135 (Lee Stevenson)
or 01736 759032 (Carole Blackwell)
Tradition: Non-sectarian[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yonten (Torpoint)
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Yonten"
Contact: Tenzin Gyalsten (Stuart)
43 Sydney Road, Torpoint, Cornwall, PL11 2LZ[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Tel: 01752 816995
Tradition: Tibetan
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Zen Practice Centre Trust
Contact: Stephen Griffin
Greenlands, Fore Street, Polgooth, PL26 7BX
Tel: 01726 70293
Affiliation: Zen Practice Centre Trust, UK National Orgainisation[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
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[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and I would like to have seen this:[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.bbc.co.uk/cornwall/content/articles/2005/07/12/tibetan_monks_feature.shtml[/font]
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I feel I must take issue somewhat with what you said. While I agree that one of the great things about Buddhism is its lack of dogma, there is a real danger when you create your own path and run down it. I have seen it happen, and quite a lot actually, where people will create their own religion basically, picking and choosing from Buddhism certain things while ignoring others (usually those that are too difficult or distasteful, like change). Then they go off on some ego trip that actually produces a worse result than if they had done nothing. This is where the benefit of lineage and having a qualified teacher come in because without them you're basically lost.
Thinking that you can find the way out of samsara on your own without benefit of a lineage or a qualified teacher, making it up as you go, is like a drunk thinking that he can become sober on his own. Only very, very rarely does this occur, and what usually happens is that the condition becomes worse. It is useful to think of our present condition as being addicted to samsara, addicted to desire. We're all addicts, and the only sure way to "cure" ourselves of this addiction is by following a sure path, just like drunkards follow the path of AA, which has a proven success.
So please consider that when you're thinking about becoming a Buddhist. Making it just another extension of your ego doesn't work.
I'd also like to add that in every tradition I know of, you "officially" become Buddhist when you take the vows of Refuge in the Three Jewels.
Palzang
Simon, thanks for the links to temples etc down here. I had no idea, even a search on the web didn't come up with much. I'll definitely be visiting.
I have been reading the mindfulness book (can't remember the name, not very mindful, is it - lol) and have been meditating on my breath for a few minutes morning and evening. I must say, I am surprised at how effective it has been in calming me down when upset or angry. I've been counting breaths in and out and trying to focus on that, allowing thoughts to enter, acknowledging them and letting them go.
It is something I have enjoyed very much and look forward to becoming more adept at it - perhaps longer than a few minutes. Is it really essential to sit? I prefer to lie down.
That just sounds like another form of labeling.
I am a beginner in this area as well but I read your post and recognized a few possible similarities between us. First I MUST add that i did not grow-up in the USA but rather in eastern Europe. I was your typical Protestant church going child because of course...my parents made me go. It was never anything more than a social gathering for me anyway. After leaving home at age 16, religion fell from my list of interests and remainded there for a long time. I then had several experiences regarding Christianity and cruelty as well as intolerance. I served off-and-on as a volunteer Medevac in Bosnia and at the Hungarian/Yugoslav border during the Balkan Wars. I was living and studying in Budapest, Hungary during that war. Anyway, I saw first hand the gruesome results of religious and ethnic intolerance. Scars that I hope I always retain. Many years later I moved to the USA and found myself in rural Arkansas where I experienced the closed minds of the Bible Thumping fundamentalists who seemed to delight in telling me about what my eternity in hell would be like before inviting me to their church to be saved.
So, how to begin? I always knew there was more to life than Cable TV and a BMW but never thought too much about it. As a Westerner I figured I had to be a Christian or an unrepentant Sinner...those were my only 2 choices. Then I learned about Japanese Tea Ceremonies and the fascinating way they combine beautiful , hand crafted, cast iron Tetsubin tea pots with preparing the tea in a calming ritual, drinking the tea AND meditation all while listening to sensuously relaxing Japanese/Chinese music made just for tea drinking.
THIS was my introduction or "door opening" experience that led me to Buddhism. An odd path but in the end it was my search for inner peace that led me there so I guess its irrelevant whether I found my way to The Buddha due to an enlightening Dalai Lama speech or a simple cup of steaming green tea.
Perhaps you have misunderstood me over overgeneralized my statements. I certainly don't suggest that anyone "run down" any path. Nor do I think it is wise to "go on an ego trip." However, I don't think those are the necessary results of a person taking time to examine certain beliefs before deciding that they really believe in them. To the contrary, I believe it is far more dangerous for someone to take everything someone else has to say as fact because they are considered a guru, or because it has been tradition for two millenia. That is not what Buddha intended! Buddhism is a religion of conscious choices and introspection. Teachers can be helpful, but they are not a substitute for an individual's own judgement. And even without a formal teacher, I do not believe that someone is "lost." Was Buddha lost? No. And we must remember that one does not have to be called "teacher" to be one. A wise person learns from everyone and everything. But, they do not take everything the see or hear as "the truth" without questioning it.
As for ego, we need also be aware that strict adherence to a specific tradition/lineage can also produce ego trips when one thinks that their path is inherently better because it is older, has more followers, has more prestige, etc.
As for AA, I have known addicts and seen their struggles. I lived with an alcoholic for several years. AA only works if the individual takes responsibility for their choices. One can not simply go through the motions or rely on others for their salvation. AA helps some get past the first step - taking responsibility - but the addict must due the vast majority of the work. As in general, a support group helps - such as our sangha here - but it is only a part of the bigger picture.
As a final note, I do take offense to your comment, "So please consider that when you're thinking about becoming a Buddhist." I am a Buddhist, and have been for several years. I think it is a distasteful show of ego on your part to imply that I am not a Buddhist because my beliefs differ from yours. I have taken refuge in the three jewels, in reality, in how I live my life. I do not need a ceremony to make it "official" and prove it to others. You will find that there are many Buddhists worldwide that do not put this requirement on being a Buddhist - whether or not they themselves have had such a ceremony.
Sorry, I addressed that comment about "becoming a Buddhist" to anyone who might be reading my response, not you personally. Guess I didn't make myself clear. As for the "ceremony" of taking refuge in the three jewels, it's not the ceremony that's important but the taking refuge. If you've done that on your own, that's great, but doing so publicly in a "ceremony" (cringe!) can help to make it, not official, but meaningful, I guess is the right word. As my teacher explained it, taking refuge affects not only this life but all future lives, so it's something you want to do before all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas as a way of owning your actions, which I feel is important. Do you see what I mean?
I agree most wholeheartedly that AA only works if the individual takes responsibility for their choices. Ditto for Buddhism. However, sometimes you need an outside support group to understand exactly what choices it is that you're making, ne c'est pas?
I also agree that following some given lineage for the purpose of adding that lineage to one's ego territory is not good. However, there are other, more meaningful reasons to follow a lineage. First of all, you can have some confidence that the teachers in that lineage will produce the desired result, i.e. that they will lead you, the student, to enlightenment. Without the benefit of lineage, it is difficult to have confidence in a given teacher or path. There are just too many bogus teachers out there to just take them at their word, imho. When you follow a lineage that speaks to you and that can trace its roots back to the Buddha himself, then you can feel some confidence in that lineage. That is the benefit of lineage, not to give you something to puff yourself up about.
Palzang
If I am looking for a plumber or an electriciuan, I go to a reputable firm. If I want to study a subject, I look for a teacher with the best credentials. No more than that and no less.
Where great credentials are partnered by an inspiring personality, that is a bonus, although it is not essential. At the University, I met many a don who was a great teacher but a total psin as a person! The teacher who has an inspiring personality and less great credentials also has a place. But the really worrying are those with a great personality and no credentials, no sangha to moderate, evaluate and remonstrate.
But there are also those who will seek on their own, for a time or all their lives. They are the touchstone of their own lives.
Palzang,
Could you provide me with some information?
I hear an awful lot about having a teacher and someone to guide us down the path. But, as with everything that involves a teacher, it is based upon their interpretation or "lean" on things.
Why is it so important to have a teacher? Who was Buddha's teacher? How does your practice of Buddhism allow for the fact that Gotama reached enlightenment without a teacher? Was it because he was so close to enlightenment during that given "cycle"?
Thanks for any info you post.
-bf
The Buddha's answer:
"He from whom a person learns the Dhamma should be venerated, as the devas venerate Inda, their Lord. He, (a teacher) of great learning, thus venerated, will explain the Dhamma, being well-disposed towards one. Having paid attention and considered it, a wise man, practicing according to Dhamma, becomes learned, intelligent and accomplished by associating himself diligently with such a teacher.
"But by following an inferior and foolish teacher who has not gained (fine) understanding of the Dhamma and is envious of others, one will approach death without comprehending the Dhamma and unrelieved of doubt.
"If a man going down into a river, swollen and swiftly flowing, is carried away by the current -- how can he help others across?
"Even so, he who has not comprehended the Dhamma, has not paid attention to the meaning as expounded by the learned, being himself without knowledge and unrelieved of doubt -- how can he make others understand?
"But if (the man at the river) knows the method and is skilled and wise, by boarding a strong boat equipped with oars and a rudder, he can, with its help, set others across. Even so, he who is experienced and has a well-trained mind, who is learned and dependable, clearly knowing, he can help others to understand who are willing to listen and ready to receive.
"Surely, therefore, one should associate with a good man who is wise and learned. By understanding the meaning of what one has learned and practicing accordingly one who has Dhamma-experience attains (supreme) happiness."
- Nava Sutta: Sn II.8
Thank you for your clarification.
But then I would have to ask another question.
There have been learned people, even in here (imagine that!) that have stated that going through a teacher where you can't either a) trace their lineage b) don't know anything about them c) may have their own interpretations or d) coming up with your own interpretation is like the blind leading the blind.
So, why have a teacher that is just as unawakened as yourself? Buddha taught those because he "knew". Everyone else that is unenlightened and searching seems like their in the dark just as much as the rest of us.
-bf
"... There are five ideas that ripen here and now in two ways. What five? Faith, preference, hearsay-learning, arguing upon evidence, and liking through pondering a view. Now something may have faith well placed in it and yet be hollow, empty, and false; and again something may have no faith placed in it and yet be factual, true, and no other than it seems; and so with preference and the rest. If a man has faith, then he guards truth when he says, "My faith is thus," but on that account draws no unreserved conclusion, "Only this is true, the other is wrong." In this way he guards the truth; but there is as yet no discovery of truth. And so with preference and the rest.
How is truth discovered? Here a bhikkhu lives near some village or town. Then a householder or his son goes to him in order to test him in three kinds of ideas, in ideas provocative of greed, of hate, and of delusion, wondering, "Are there in this venerable one any such ideas, whereby his mind being obsessed he might not knowing, say 'I know,' unseeing, say 'I see,' or to get others to do likewise, which would be long for their harm and suffering?" While thus testing him he comes to find that there are no such ideas in him, and he finds that, "The bodily and verbal behavior of that venerable one are not those of one affected by lust or hate or delusion. But the True Idea that this venerable one teaches is profound, hard to see and discover; yet it is the most peaceful and superior of all, out of reach of logical ratiocination, subtle, for the wise to experience; such a True Idea cannot be taught by one affected by lust or hate or delusion."
It is as soon as by testing him, he comes to see that he is purified from ideas provocative of lust, hate, and delusion, that he then plants his faith in him. When he visits him he respects him, when he respects him he gives ear, one who gives ear hears the True Idea, he remembers it, he investigates the meaning of the ideas remembered. When he does that he acquires a preference by pondering the ideas. That produces interest. One interested is actively committed. So committed he makes a judgment. According to his judgment he exerts himself. When he exerts himself he comes to realize with the body the ultimate truth, and he sees it by the penetrating of it with understanding. That is how there is discovery of truth. But there is as yet no final arrival at truth. How is truth finally arrived at? Final arrival at truth is the repetition, the keeping in being, the development, of those same ideas. That is how there is final arrival at truth."
..."
Canki Sutta: MN 95
"Monks, these four traits may be known by means of four [other] traits. Which four?
"It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.
"It's through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.
"It's through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.
"It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.
[1] "'It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said?
"There is the case where one individual, through living with another, knows this: 'For a long time this person has been torn, broken, spotted, splattered in his actions. He hasn't been consistent in his actions. He hasn't practiced consistently with regard to the precepts. He is an unprincipled person, not a virtuous, principled one.' And then there is the case where one individual, through living with another, knows this: 'For a long time this person has been untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered in his actions. He has been consistent in his actions. He has practiced consistently with regard to the precepts. He is a virtuous, principled person, not an unprincipled one.'
"'It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
[2] "'It's through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said?
"There is the case where one individual, through dealing with another, knows this: 'This person deals one way when one-on-one, another way when with two, another way when with three, another way when with many. His earlier dealings do not jibe with his later dealings. He is impure in his dealings, not pure.' And then there is the case where one individual, through dealing with another, knows this: 'The way this person deals when one-on-one, is the same way he deals when with two, when with three, when with many. His earlier dealings jibe with his later dealings. He is pure in his dealings, not impure.'
"'It's through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
[3] "'It's through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said?
"There is the case where a person, suffering loss of relatives, loss of wealth, or loss through disease, does not reflect: 'That's how it is when living together in the world. That's how it is when gaining a personal identity.1 When there is living in the world, when there is the gaining of a personal identity, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions: gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain.' Suffering loss of relatives, loss of wealth, or loss through disease, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. And then there is the case where a person, suffering loss of relatives, loss of wealth, or loss through disease, reflects: 'That's how it is when living together in the world. That's how it is when gaining a personal identity. When there is living in the world, when there is the gaining of a personal identity, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions: gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain.' Suffering loss of relatives, loss of wealth, or loss through disease, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught.
"'It's through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
[4] "'It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said?
"There is the case where one individual, through discussion with another, knows this: 'From the way this person rises to an issue, from the way he applies [his reasoning], from the way he addresses a question, he is dull, not discerning. Why is that? He does not make statements that are deep, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. He cannot declare the meaning, teach it, describe it, set it forth, reveal it, explain it, or make it plain. He is dull, not discerning.' Just as if a man with good eyesight standing on the shore of a body of water were to see a small fish rise. The thought would occur to him, 'From the rise of this fish, from the break of its ripples, from its speed, it is a small fish, not a large one.' In the same way, one individual, in discussion with another, knows this: 'From the way this person rises to an issue, from the way he applies [his reasoning], from the way he addresses a question... he is dull, not discerning.'
"And then there is the case where one individual, through discussion with another, knows this: 'From the way this person rises to an issue, from the way he applies [his reasoning], from the way he addresses a question, he is discerning, not dull. Why is that? He makes statements that are deep, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. He can declare the meaning, teach it, describe it, set it forth, reveal it, explain it, & make it plain. He is discerning, not dull.' Just as if a man with good eyesight standing on the shore of a body of water were to see a large fish rise. The thought would occur to him, 'From the rise of this fish, from the break of its ripples, from its speed, it is a large fish, not a small one.' In the same way, one individual, in discussion with another, knows this: 'From the way this person rises to an issue, from the way he applies [his reasoning], from the way he addresses a question... he is discerning, not dull.'
"'It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
"These, monks, are the four traits that may be known by means of these four [other] traits."
Thana Sutta: AN IV.192
Basically, you must judge a person through discernment by spending with them, and observing them. If they live in a way that reflects the Dhamma then you know that this is a skilled teacher. As with most things in Buddhism, there is no really quick and easy answer. A 'lineage' to me only says, "Well, they're probably safe and well learned..."
Just because a person is a monk or teacher in a certain lineage doesn't mean that they themselves are enlightened and completely free from greed, hatred, and delusion. There is no outward sign that proclaims, "I am a teacher! I am enlightenend!" It is something that you yourself must discern through patience, observation, and the actions of the person in question over a long period of time.
Jason
Way back when I was a teacher, one of my subjects was French. I was horrified to discover that the majority of my colleagues teaching French, English men and women, spoke it like the classic vache espagnole. If I want to learn a language or a musical instrument, I want a teacher who is good at it. Teaching qualifications are good; having worked with or been the pupil of a great musician may be even better!
I am quite sure that, when choosing a driving instructor, we check the bona fides of the instructor.
Because what we are addressing here, a guru, is a teacher who will train us in a new way of life, we need to verify that their own life fits the pattern we are seeking. Last term, I went to some "Meditation classes" run by our local NKT crew. When the 'teacher' said (and laughed while he was saying it), "I'm not a very good meditator", I decided not to go back.
Having a teacher and student relationship is good because it teaches about being humble and respectful.
Kinlee,
You make a great point.
If I had a student like me? I'd probably kill myself.
-bf