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Pride/Humiliation
RichardH
Veteran
I recently posted this statement/question on another forum......
Humiliation rises to meet pride at every turn, and "I" am this cycle of pride and humiliation. When not Awake, "I" am this cycle, even if its reality is covered up for a while by a veil of obtuseness. When Awake, no "I", no cycle. Any thoughts on this?
The basis if this question is that if there is self view there is pride and humiliation. no self view, no pride and humiliation.
an answer I got was this.......
"Sure, thoughts abound.
There is nothing wrong with pride and humiliation, they are the natural expansion and contraction of the self-image. Without the activity of the expansion and contraction of the self-image as manifested in pride and humiliation a person can not have a healthy functioning consciousness.
For example, a healthy pride is the expression of the moment as the self-image (ego) expands and merges with the object-image.
Pride and humiliation become problematic when a fixation in consciousness arises that interferes with the natural expansion and contraction of pride and humiliation. When the expansion of pride becomes fixated the self-image becomes fixated, and in the state of fixation the self-image becomes idolized as something separate from the natural activity of expansion and ocntraction and in the state of fixated expansion the self-image is seen as something to defend against the occurance of contraction and humiliation. Once pride is fixated and the self-image becomes fixed in the illusion of everlasting expansion, then the state of fear arises because there is no illusion strong enough to completely block out of consciousness the sub-conscious acknowledgement of contraction. As long as one is alive, humiliation must break through the illusion in some form, but the fixation of pride creates, on the one hand, an infinite variation of rationalitions for the "alien intrusion" of humiliation and on the other hand, the distancing of one's self-image from the object that is associated with the humiliation through blame and projection.
Becoming fixated in humiliation and the contraction of the self-image can occur just as well, in which case pride becomes the "enemy" of the self-image. Such false humility has the expansion of pride firmly fixed within it, yet attempts to contain it like a nuclear reasctor shell containing the core.
So rather than be fixated around pride or humiliation, please enjoy your Chrismas pie."
This is an interesting approach. any reflections on this? Thanks
Humiliation rises to meet pride at every turn, and "I" am this cycle of pride and humiliation. When not Awake, "I" am this cycle, even if its reality is covered up for a while by a veil of obtuseness. When Awake, no "I", no cycle. Any thoughts on this?
The basis if this question is that if there is self view there is pride and humiliation. no self view, no pride and humiliation.
an answer I got was this.......
"Sure, thoughts abound.
There is nothing wrong with pride and humiliation, they are the natural expansion and contraction of the self-image. Without the activity of the expansion and contraction of the self-image as manifested in pride and humiliation a person can not have a healthy functioning consciousness.
For example, a healthy pride is the expression of the moment as the self-image (ego) expands and merges with the object-image.
Little Jack Horner
Sat in the corner,
Eating a Christmas pie;
He put in his thumb,
And pulled out a plum,
And said 'What a good boy am I!
Little Jack's pride is the natural expansive expression of his unification with the plum.Sat in the corner,
Eating a Christmas pie;
He put in his thumb,
And pulled out a plum,
And said 'What a good boy am I!
Pride and humiliation become problematic when a fixation in consciousness arises that interferes with the natural expansion and contraction of pride and humiliation. When the expansion of pride becomes fixated the self-image becomes fixated, and in the state of fixation the self-image becomes idolized as something separate from the natural activity of expansion and ocntraction and in the state of fixated expansion the self-image is seen as something to defend against the occurance of contraction and humiliation. Once pride is fixated and the self-image becomes fixed in the illusion of everlasting expansion, then the state of fear arises because there is no illusion strong enough to completely block out of consciousness the sub-conscious acknowledgement of contraction. As long as one is alive, humiliation must break through the illusion in some form, but the fixation of pride creates, on the one hand, an infinite variation of rationalitions for the "alien intrusion" of humiliation and on the other hand, the distancing of one's self-image from the object that is associated with the humiliation through blame and projection.
Becoming fixated in humiliation and the contraction of the self-image can occur just as well, in which case pride becomes the "enemy" of the self-image. Such false humility has the expansion of pride firmly fixed within it, yet attempts to contain it like a nuclear reasctor shell containing the core.
So rather than be fixated around pride or humiliation, please enjoy your Chrismas pie."
This is an interesting approach. any reflections on this? Thanks
0
Comments
What is the difference between awakening to everything precicely how it is, and mere licence? How can there be awareness of Humiliation, when it seems to me humiliation depends on a lack of awareness (ie absorbtion in self image)? It gets to the whole issue of there "being nothing to do", yet at the same time there being something to do.
....anyway I'll PM you more info about the forum, it impolitic do discuss another one in this forum.
Thanks
What differences do you see reflected here? One of the reasons I liked it is that to me it reads like an excellent reinterpretation of Dependent Origination in modern psychological terms, with a twist of object relations theory.
One response to these questions is to conclude that there is no permanent cessation of suffering. That's roughly where I'm at, at the moment. But I know it's heretical, and largely speculative.
What you say about there being no permanent cessation of suffering cuts right to the heart of this issue. Alway approaching final peace, tying loose ends forever. Thats one way of looking at the Bodhisattva path. Since "sudden awakening" the division between subject and object is truly gone on one level, yet on another level practice goes on and on. This goes back to that "pure/impure" thread.
If you feel humiliated, it is because you have attached yourself to a personal self-image (a plaster saint of sorts) that we believed (up until now) was so much better than whatever action/thought has humiliated us, or brought our ego back to earth.
We all do it!
Worse still is the fear that others will see us differently (than the pretend self that we have been presenting to them), and that we will loose some stature in their eyes because of this.
Can you spell Attached?
What is ego, if it isn’t a pretend self that, we wave like a red flag before others, and ourselves, in order to put ourselves up, elevate our self in status and above the norm? (above the great unwashed.)
So up above what? Up above other people, of course. Who else do we compare ourselves with, squirrels? No, we are in competition with our brothers and sisters on this planet, (a war we take for granted, and hardly notice). But where is the compassion, or the PEACE in that?
S9
Everyone does not continue to fall into the trap of pride, all the way up to the last breath outside of Total Liberation. Some sage like individuals are capable of understanding this trap intellectually, and therefore of side stepping it by choosing the “Middle Way.”
If this were not the case, why else would Buddha give us the “8 Fold Path?”
He would simply say that our “Goose was Cooked” outside of total Liberation.
It is not dull witted, (“obtuse” as you say), if one doesn’t claim every fault as his own.
Peace,
S9
Never met anyone who is truly beyond all identification with conditions.
Quite so, as they used to say when I was a kid, “We all have our cross to bear.“
When working with Alzheimer disease, I also saw this. They could be lost in one area and quite lucid in another area, at the same exact moment.
We do not progress in every part of our life and understanding equally, like a straight line across the top. This also pulses, (as in, one step forward, 2 steps back, and then we hop ahead 3 steps. Go figure! ; ^ )
Sometimes we have spirts of insight in one area, and other parts of our life must wait their turn.
Soon we learn to go with the flow, and stop fighting with our self.
Respectfully,
S9
They can look the same from the inside. A lack of dissonance around self image can look just like that, as you blithely step on those around you. Many profoundly egocentric people are very self accepting.
This isnt a dig at you Subjectivity, its just a question that hangs in the air in Spiritual practice. especially in the non-dual traditions where the injuction is to wake up to the unity of Nirvana and Samsara.
........by the way. I hear you like to enter sheep.
Lets examine acceptance, shall we?
What exactly is it?
Isn’t acceptance synonymous with clarity?
Acceptance isn’t just a ‘brute force’ that without any rhyme or reason forces us to accept something/anything without any prelude to that acceptance, is it?
Lets not get the horse before the carriage here. There is a process to acceptance, however so subtle, and the actual workings take place within what we call acceptance.
1st we look at something/anything taking place and examine it (this defilement) as it is, unvarnished, without any prejudgment to interfere with our seeing it with NEW EYES.
We begin to see that the defilement is merely a thought, and the actions that naturally bloom from that thought. We also begin to notice that, that thought is not our self, and that we have been ‘Wrongly Identifying’ with it as being a part of who we are.
Bad boy! Good boy!
We also see the pain it causes, the unpleasantness within because of it…only then can we accept it for what it is…a dream problem. We can let it go.
Whereas, license is a whole other animal. It is a kind of blindness, which fosters continuing within any given pain cycle. Some part of us, because we remain in a habitual idea that this defilement will bring us pleasure, or even happiness, continues to pursue that error.
Isn’t this what “Right View’ is all about, seeing clearly?
I believe with this added clarity, you will begin to notice (also) self correcting taking place (automatically), and you will also notice that the mind decided to do this (automatically), much like a child burned will pull his hand (automatically) out of the flame.
If you are really astute, you will also see that this (automatic) doing is not your job, that you are not the self, or his doings, and this added clarity will give you even more room to see more clearly in the future. And so it goes, until everything simply falls away.
Sincerely,
S9
S9