Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
compassion/kindness and gender: Does it matter?
I know that boys and girls, men and women, are socialized to behave in certain ways. I think it's fascinating!
We all have our struggles and conditions to face, but as a (buddhist) man, do you find that you first had to work on being "ok" with typically "feminine" qualities? Or were the nurturing/careing/other-oriented traits right there just below the surface already? Do you feel that you had to work through alot of the "macho" conditioning that boys/men are fed in order to continue on your buddhist/spiritual journey? How's that working for you, lol??
I know that so many things factor in when it comes to what shapes our personalities. Nature/nurture, life experiences etc...
I also know that there are no absolutes...my son for example!
Just curious what you all think.
A
We all have our struggles and conditions to face, but as a (buddhist) man, do you find that you first had to work on being "ok" with typically "feminine" qualities? Or were the nurturing/careing/other-oriented traits right there just below the surface already? Do you feel that you had to work through alot of the "macho" conditioning that boys/men are fed in order to continue on your buddhist/spiritual journey? How's that working for you, lol??
I know that so many things factor in when it comes to what shapes our personalities. Nature/nurture, life experiences etc...
I also know that there are no absolutes...my son for example!
Just curious what you all think.
A
0
Comments
talk of this nature just serves to perpetuate the opinion that men are different to women when it comes to practice.
gender is however, completely irrelevant.
But when you consider the ratio of men to women, in roles of authority or status, you need to ask yourself whether that question bears any significance posed in that way.
In short - have you actually thought what you're asking, and why?
I see how gender is or can be irrelevant for some, especially the people who are way way beyond the scope of my understanding...but before they got there...didn't they question certain dualities that interested them? Let's face it, even when a parent intentionally tries to raise their kids as psychologically androgynous as possible (as I have) they are still subjected to outside influences/societal "norms"...it just is.
I'm not talking about status or authority, I'm not even talking about equality... though you make a good point
I'm trying to understand my husband a little bit better, and currently I don't believe that talking about such things is trivial. In fact, to me it's kind of idealistic to think that this topic hasn't affected us all in some way. That doesn't mean that we can't rise above this way of thinking, I'm all for that, but for today I'm curious...
How has socieites conditioning of what is typically feminine or masculine affected the way you practice and/or what have the challenges been, specifically based on what was taught to you vs what you know???
A
YOU are that society, and as such, can either influence social mores by perpetuating them, or refusing to conform.
It was Gandhi who declared: "Be the change you wish to see in the world".
For my part, the fact that I am genetically by birth in this body, a female, has never entered my mind, with regard to my practice, or how it has been affected by society.
My only consideration in stepping onto a Buddhist path, was the gradual disrobing of my Roman Catholic religious upbringing.
But this was something I had to do for myself, by myself, because of the way it uniquely affected me. No matter what the doctrine, it's how a person adopts - and adapts - it to their life.
but social attitudes never figured at all.
In fact, it's never occurred to me until now, that it was something I should even have considered ....
My partner isn't Buddhist, but he completely respects my calling. I don't think it has anything to do with his gender. I think it has to do with intelligence and intellect.
Are you actually having problems practising, because your H is proving to be obstinate and inhibiting?
just asking.....
When I got to college they gave us various batteries of tests, including a personality profile. Afterwards they sat down with us and went over the results. My counselor got noticeably embarassed and antsy when he got to my personality profile. He said that many of my responses were, ahem, feminine more than male, like I put things like I preferred reading a book to playing a game of baseball or something. At the time I didn't understand why preferring to read a book made me less of a male than wanting to play baseball (which I detested), so I got quite confused. Didn't do wonders for my self-esteem either. Was I doing something wrong?
As a teenager I never had the slightest interest in playing the dating game. Seemed totally stupid to me, like monkeys displaying their red arses at each other. But like I said, I never fit into the roles society wanted me to play.
I'm not sure what the point is I'm trying to make, but the whole thing of gender roles is a sticky one that brings a lot of unnecessary suffering to those who don't fit naturally into them.
Palzang
...and there really doesn't have to be a point, I just wanted to discuss it! My son is going through much of what you speak. When he was a toddler I let him play with his sister's dolls, and today he reads and keeps to himself quite a bit - he also dislikes sports. The dating thing is coming, so we'll see, lol.
It does bring alot of unnecessary suffering to people. Both the ones who blindly/fearfully follow, and the ones who don't fit in and want out! I have seen through having a son just how boys/men are "expected" to act and it really has been an eye opener. It's unfortunate that this exists, but I will continue to work on understanding and encouraging change in an understanding and compassionate way. As for myself, I don't fit in in many ways either. It's been good to see (as best as possible) thru the eyes of my son and how men's prescribed gender roles hurt just as much. "be a man, chin up" "only whimps cry".
Federica -
I am having an effect on the world, I just need to understand the subject material first! I'm only second generation american, raised by my immigrant grandparents, and it took years of work to become who I am today. Please don't imply that I need to hurry up and get to a place that YOU think I need to be in...
Actually, I have read your posts to others as well, and I find your overall tone to be sarcastic and judgemental. I am all for constructive suggestions/challenges, but from what I read of you so far, you seem to have trouble keeping an underlying vibe of calm.
Since Buddhism is largely about the mind and how it fools us (I think)....than really it IS wise to look into how it has quietly entangled itself into our thoughts/feelings/viewpoints etc. Many/most of our thoughts and even feelings stem from what society has fed us. This is HUGE, and it is huge (to me) because it helps me understand what is real vs what isn't.
I'm sory you took that implication, but it wasn't meant that way. Unfortunately, we don't have the benefit of being able to know everything about somebody, so your now infilling information, whilst useful and welcome, is no reason to have a pop at me for having tried to answer your post. I gave my opinion, just as anyone might do, so I'm sorry you felt it was a personal affront. As ever, the written medium is far from ideal a way in which to convey a viewpoint....
The only thing I will say, is just wait until you get to know me better.
I am neither sarcastic nor judgemental. I think you have the entirely wrong end of the stick.
Sorry, but I do.
no, I';m sorry, but I'm afraid it isn't. The mind is not a separate thing. Perception is often deception. If you feel fooled, it is merely a Wrong View that has manifested. Sorry.
This is an example of the suffering we manufacture for ourselves when we grasp or cling to the idea that reality is immoveable and something which must have an effect on us.
The fact is that thoughts/feelings and viewpoints might be things you manifest or experience, but they are not who you are, because they are part of your consciousness and are dependent upon your fashioning a 'story' if you will, of why they matter....
Things are not what they seem. Nor are they otherwise.
Surangama Sutra.
I dont think bodhicitta is confined by social roles of masculine and feminine.
Its up to us to exhibit appropriate behaviors regardless of social norms and gender roles.
True enough, SN, but life is complicated and one must deal with people's moods and total lack of charity at the workplace. I work in geriatric health care and there's a lot of malice to be found. The nurses show complete lack of interest in the condition of any unmarried male patients, as if they all had AIDS and there was nothing to be done. Even the good nurses...
In the South, where there was so much injustice, racial issues still ward off authentic dealing with what constitutes compassion. It's almost as if any new idea was threatening my right to be as mean as I like.
Acceptance has raised a wonderful issue here. I wonder, though: Is it primarily a question of feelings of difference or is it a question of justice? Or is it anything more. As I said above, I work in geriatrics (in a long-term-care setting). However, although we are always being presented from the management concepts of "culture change," I see very little of these more compassionate and caring attitudes being exhibited by the staff. It's all about getting the "task" done in a hurry. So sad.
This is when we have genuine opportunities to practice what we preach.
Just because we are compassionate Dharma practitioners doesnt mean we have to be doormats.
Authentic compassion takes all kinds of forms and methods in order to benefit others. True compassion is an act of strength, wisdom, and determination.
I agree that one's gender should not be a determining factor with one's practice. You might be a female now but you surely haven't always been in this body. But, you are in a body right now that is influenced by different hormones (depending on your sex) and society has established gender roles that correspond with one's sex that can either be seen as a guide and a set of directions or it can be viewed as a limitation and set of resrtictions.
For years I saw the later but only recently have I realized that gender roles are to be used as a guide, an effort to help me determine what I want to be and it is ok if I do not fit exactly into what I believed society thinks a man should be. These gender roles help me percieve the diffierent aspects of humanity. I now can act in a way that I choose. I embrace my feminine qualities but I can see more clearly how mascluline I really am. (I guess I should define masculinity but this is not an academic paper so see this http://www.esquire.com/features/what-is-a-man-0509)
What about my husband?
What about my wife?
What about my people at work?
What about my boss?
What about racism?
What about the weather?
What about my illness?
It may sound a bit glib to say they are what they are... but that is the truth of it. No amount of wishing and wanting will change that. The only thing we can control is our relationship to that fact. The decisions we have in life are related to how we live this moment, what we do and say now. We cannot change the past, arrange the future to suit ourselves, or make other people say and do things we want them to say and do. All of our power is contained within this moment, related to our particular body and mind. An this is a very powerful position to be!
Please... it is not my intention to present these basic buddhist concepts as a lecture... but merely to suggest that we approach our day-to-day issues the way the Buddha taught it. Maybe... we should relook some of the issues raised in this thread with this in mind.
Oh-oh! Another one! Well, just continue to love him no matter what direction he goes in, and everything will be fine.
Palzang
Well, I matched a couple of those in the article. I guess that's a good thing (?).
Palzang
One of the most liberating things about the study of self is, in fact, your name. Accepting things as they are and knowing that everything is perfect, just the way it is, right now, can be one of the most beautiful aspects of life.
My advice on how to accept everything is to try to see everything, in its entirety, effortlessly. That's what I believe it means to really "see".
The reason you even feel any hesitation at all when it comes to your feminine tastes or actions is because you feel you are being judged by others. When you start to see everything as a whole, (and you will
In a sense, the only person judging you is you :P
P.S- I'm a boy, and I got the only thing I asked for for christmas this year, which is a pink and purple lava lamp. It's pretty amazing
Um-hmmm! :rolleyes:
You're right, acceptance is the thing. Unfortunately it took me a long time to actually accomplish that with myself. Still bearing the scars...
Palzang
For a man, being 'hard' often comes natural & easy to him, so he must work on being soft.
For a woman, being 'soft' often comes natural & easy to her, so she must work on being 'hard'.
For example, many women may think giving, accepting and what they regard as 'compassion & kindness' is natural for them and thus they are in tune with Buddhism. However, their acceptence may be at the expense of being able to both nurture & assert values or morals.
My view is, whilst a perfect world is never possible, once gender roles were more clearer and more attuned to internal ying & yang rather than external ying & yang.
A man was a breadwinner and thus his softness was developed via giving. That a man learns to give is so important, vital & essential.
A woman nurtured family and her hardness was developed via instilling values, morals & discipline in her family, children & husband.
Today, things have turned around. Women are asserting their softness too much (which includes their sexuality) and men are asserting their hardness too much. Women have lost the art of disciplining.
In brief, each sex is asserting their outer qualities rather than developing their inner spiritual qualities.
The inner spiritual quality of a man is soft and the inner spiritual quality of a women is hard.
[Hi Dazz...:eek:]
I find it interesting that from a Tibetan point of view it is the male energy that embodies compassion while the female embodies wisdom. Just the opposite from the way it is in the West, don't you think?
Palzang
I am probably trying to say the same thing.
For man, there is a compassion to be developed and for woman, wisdom or knowing to be openly expressed.
PZ
Alchemical transformation
Interesting, Palzang. As a small girl I found dolls etc desperately boring and was more interested in boys toys. This continued until puberty with me prefering to kick a football around, collect toy cars and read boys comics -especially ones about spaceships and aliens !
As a teenager and onwards I became outwardly 'girlie' and interested in boys but still mostly disinterested in the things girls are supposed to like.
I think in terms of compassion/loving kindness and wisdom, these qualities should both develop equally in a practitioner, rather than there being a predominance of one or the other
[Hi Dee Dee !:p]
Palzang
...and what about bisexuals (myself) who are sexually attracted to both sexes, but prefer women emotionally/romantically. How is that explained??
This post was not about equality/inequality or anything like that. It was really just a post on how societal norms affect each and every one of us. I'm sorry, but I can't just disregard that. It's just a fact. Buddhism or no buddhism, it exists and has affected us in some way.
That was my point. I know that we don't have to accept it. I know that we shouldn't even be having to waste time in discussing it. Should be teaching our children to be more androgynous...I know, have you not read my above statements? lol ..
Most of you got caught up in the right/wrong of it, and I was not trying to go there.
peace
It's just karma. Just phenomena.
Palzang
hmm, food for thought.
Buddhism does not ascribe to a transmigratory Soul.
Wisdom is feminine in the Tanakh and Hagia Sophia (Holy Wisdom) is too. The Shekinah is usually seen as feminine.
We really do need to distinguish between female and feminine, male and masculine, they are not synonymous.
I find it deeply comforting that many Christian churches have adopted a "Mother/Father" view of God rather than the patriarchal, post-Roman model that oppressed us for so long.
On my wall I have a thangka of Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvara (male) and, on a shelf, a bronze of Guanyin (female), both sen as identical manifestations of compassion.
Neither compassion nor wisdom has genitalia.
Palzang
Palzang
We're all have our differences, and it's true that we're greatly influenced by the external conditions in which we find ourselves, whether cultural, geographical, etc., but that doesn't mean we have to be rigidly determined by those things. So in that sense, yes, being a conventional male, I've personally had to work on being "OK" with certain behaviours and traits considered "feminine," but I don't put much stock in such labels anymore.
Personally, I believe everyone's capable of cultivating compassion and kindness, regardless of gender, sex, etc.
Thank you for reminding us that, while we debate the 'non-self' of gender, out there, in the real world, men and women do not have equal rights, duties and equity.
My own experience was that the feminist movement, for which tales of my mother's struggle for the vote prepared me, changed me profoundly. It was not always a comfortable or easy process but I am grateful to teachers like Debbie, Liza and so many others, who taught me that energy and commitment have to put political theory into daily practice. In raising my awareness, they liberated me, too, to an extent. Not far enough yet, I fear, and the world still values and rewards women inequitably.
So, in answer to the OP, I have to reply : Yes,a hundred times "Yes!" Gender discrimination is integral to any consideration of compassion or kindness. It is a form of slavery which can have no place in a compassionate universe. In ours, however, we are afflicted by discrimination against the weaker, samsara, and we can be tempted to turn our eyes away, like the Pharisee in the Temple, despising the taxman.
Or we can assert the fact that, simply because inequalities will always be with us, that is no reason not to get down (and dirty) in the trenches and join the struggle. Isn't this precisely the heart of the Bodhisattva ideal? Precisely why the World-Honoured One turned the Wheel of Dharma?
Palzang
I know samsara can't be made all good but for heaven's sake! At the very least all those who wish to devote their lives to the study and practice of the Dhamma by ordaining should be welcomed with open arms.
I can't ordain anyway but I'd like to have the choice. Grrr...If I could physically live the monastic life I'd be saving up for a long trip Down Under.
As Palzang so eruditely put it, 'Yup'.
Spot on, Boo!
But do be careful what you wish for LOL (have you ever read Therese of Lisieux about the monastic life?)
Kids grow up as they do - nature and nurture. It's mostly down to the 'parenting', but I've seen boys grow up to be the opposite of everything their parents desired - in one case he 'failed' to make the grade as a macho male, in another case he was not exposed to 'male' toys - so used his fingers as a 'gun' instead. LOL
On the other hand, and using a base of thousands of kids, from what I've seen over a few decades in education, and some years spent working in schools, you can spot the parents of some kids at 100 paces. Not all kids grow up like their parents, but IMHO most do, allowing for the odd genius or rebel. Fat lazy parent create fat lazy kids. Violent aggressive parents breed violent aggressive kids. Bright academic parents breed bright academic kids. Genes and karma aside, I see the parents as the key formative denominator. In my local town, I already had the names of the future criminals ten years before they shot, kidnapped, raped, assaulted, robbed etc. - and so did the local police. Sadly, unless taken away from them, their parents simply replicated their own roles in society through their kids. Of course, there is also the flip side - I also knew who was likely to enter Oxford or become 'successful' in other ways.
I'm please to say that in recent years, I have seen a very positive change in boys and men, who seem much more compassionate than males of 25 years ago - or maybe they just feel more able to communicate it?
Yeah, just look at me. I might talk tough every now and then, but I wouldn't hurt a fly (which would probably be a lot more surprising if you'd known me between the ages of 13-17
But seriously, I know there's no way I could live a monastic life in my state, both physical and mental. I'm as soft as a ripe tomato...although my mind is getting more toned as the practice progresses. But I'd probably die in my first week at a monastery. Or lose what's left of my mind...
It's actually not as bad as it sounds. I've stayed at a couple and have thoroughly enjoyed my experiences.
Well, you know, if you really work for that to happen in this life, even (or rather especially) if it's just for others, you will be creating the causes for it to happen to you in the future. I'm all for it!
Palzang
Ayya Medhanandi has established a Hermitage just for women outside Perth, Ontario called Sati Saraniya and it's not far from the Thai Forest Tradition monastery, Tisarana. In fact, they have been called 'sister' or 'brother' monasteries.
Ayya's plan is to ordain women in the Theravaden tradition. I don't know how but nuns from all around North America have already offered to come to Sati Saraniya for ordination ceremonies where a certain number of bikkhunhis are required. I'm very excited about Sati Saraniya and can't wait to visit this summer.
Ajahn Sumedho is also going to be at Tisarana for Vesak this summer and I'd love to be around there for that. It will definitely be a huge gathering of Buddhists, that's for sure!
Palzang
I'm not sure that I have much to add to this thread, but I've just got to say that I never realized that book readin' was a feminine quality. Personally speaking I've been reading and loved baseball from my earliest memories.