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Leaving no traces....

RichardHRichardH Veteran
edited January 2010 in Philosophy
In Zen there is talk of leaving no trace of awakening, no trace of "Emptiness", no trace of "Mind".

What does leaving no trace mean to you?

Comments

  • shenpennangwashenpennangwa
    edited January 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    In Zen there is talk of leaving no trace of awakening, no trace of "Emptiness", no trace of "Mind".

    What does leaving no trace mean to you?
    not a zen guy but the idea makes me think about the point were madhyamika stops being a view and starts being a reality.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited January 2010
    shenpen nangwa wrote: »
    not a zen guy but the idea makes me think about the point were madhyamika stops being a view and starts being a reality.

    Now thats a good question ive had little peeks at it before, well i can certainly say when the line is crossed over where the mind and emptiness are as inseperable as water and water then thats when it becomes a reality, now with some more practise...:)
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited January 2010
    To leave no trace one would need to create no trace, so abandon thoughts of mind and emptiness as both seperate and entities.

    The link with the Madhyamaka Prasangika is a recognition of the true nature of the inherent emptiness of all phenomena. They can leave no trace as they are both empty of inherent existence and are also impermanent.

    Or the Kung Fu version:
    'Walk across the rice paper, grasshopper, and leave no trace'.
    A cliche, but I think it fits. ;)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited January 2010
    I believe that language about no traces goes all the way back to the dhammapada. "Like a bird in the sky" was the imagery.

    I don't understand it.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited January 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    I believe that language about no traces goes all the way back to the dhammapada. "Like a bird in the sky" was the imagery.

    I don't understand it.


    No traces of delusion. :o
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited January 2010
    It seems to be the natural outcome of a practice that does not fall into the extremes of Eternalism and Nihilism.
  • epicurioepicurio
    edited January 2010
    An image that language like "leave no trace" always conjures up in me is that of a skillful diver gently gliding into the surface of the water straight as an arrow. Because the diver holds his body straight, he will not cause much of a disturbance while moving through the water. Contrast this with a child jumping into a pool who doesn't know how to swim. He will flail about, slapping and grasping at the water and causing a large disturbance.

    Thus, the skillful mode of being is to glide through life, experiencing the same world as everyone else, yet not grasping towards or away from any particular experience. It isn't the experiences themselves (the water in the previous analogy) that causes disturbances to arise, but the grasping and flailing.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    It seems to be the natural outcome of a practice that does not fall into the extremes of Eternalism and Nihilism.
    What is "it", though?
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited January 2010
    fivebells wrote: »
    What is "it", though?
    http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showpost.php?p=78021&postcount=82

    This is just an honest pointing, and an inadequate one. But it is genuine.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Thanks, I understand.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    What does leaving no trace mean to you?
    The perfection of spacing out and the whitest of white darkness.

    :smilec:
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited January 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    In Zen there is talk of leaving no trace of awakening, no trace of "Emptiness", no trace of "Mind".

    What does leaving no trace mean to you?


    Nothing at all - to be quite honest !

    This is just an honest pointing, and an inadequate one. But it is genuine.

    :confused:


    I'm sorry - this all seems to be just empty words to me. :D


    .
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited January 2010
    All words are empty. :)
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Dhamma Dhatu wrote: »
    The perfection of spacing out
    :smilec:
    whaa? .... I'm starting to appreciate your comic relief my friend. :D
  • FyreShamanFyreShaman Veteran
    edited January 2010
    Richard Herman wrote: »
    In Zen there is talk of leaving no trace of awakening, no trace of "Emptiness", no trace of "Mind".

    What does leaving no trace mean to you?

    Another idea.

    Maybe this refers to thought itself. If we just sit and are passive in relation to what arises and falls away, there is no trace. If we sit and cogitate there is usually a trace - we draw a conclusion or we later act on it.

    Thoughts which leave a trace may be a real obstruction to Shikantaza.
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