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confused and upset... How to detach from pain and ego?
It seems that I will feel relatively good and at peace for a while following something that I believe will help me find the truth--whether it be meditation and mindfulness, or being healthy.... It feels like I've finally figured it out.
And then something happens and it all disappears. I feel like I've taken 2 steps forward and 3 back. Or perhaps 2 steps forward, but in the wrong direction. I can't see anything clearly, and I can't even identify with feeling good, I can't remember it. And I just can't deal with the feeling of being upset. It's just too much to handle, and I feel that something must be done, and I can't bear to live this pain over and over.
I realize that this is the pattern of life, and there are ups and downs. But maybe my downs are so down because I am so stuck inside myself?
I don't know why I can't deal with the downs... What is the trick here?
And then something happens and it all disappears. I feel like I've taken 2 steps forward and 3 back. Or perhaps 2 steps forward, but in the wrong direction. I can't see anything clearly, and I can't even identify with feeling good, I can't remember it. And I just can't deal with the feeling of being upset. It's just too much to handle, and I feel that something must be done, and I can't bear to live this pain over and over.
I realize that this is the pattern of life, and there are ups and downs. But maybe my downs are so down because I am so stuck inside myself?
I don't know why I can't deal with the downs... What is the trick here?
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When strong thinking and kleshas come up they try to take our confidence away. But they are impermanent. Always eventually the cloud goes away and the sun comes out again.
So I think the first thing that can relieve you somewhat is to remember that in the space of your awareness the negative thinking is impermanent. And that the good feeling will come back.
Second you can try to practice to uproot the negative thinking and kleshas. Meditation is an example. Where if you catch it as just thinking and unreal it loses some of its power. Another technique is to remember some positive things about your situation. Remember your morality and patience or whatever it is that you think is good. Most powerfully when I am upset I reflect that I have a strong wish to be happy. That wish can take me all the way to enlightenment!
Leisha, permit me to ask the obvious here...
Are you being treated for any kind of depression, or emotional imbalance?
If you are, then perhaps you should seek assistance from your doctor....
(I hope you're not offended... I'd just like to establish matters before offering some input....)
if you're not, have you had episodes of highs and lows before, or is it something that has become more evident to you since studying Buddhism? (If so, this is not necessarily a bad thing....)
I kept trying to do things I thought would help, and they would. But not for long.
It's difficult to explain what changed because it was a process. And besides, what specifically helped me may not help you. But I can tell you that by finding Buddhism you've found the way out of your suffering. Guaranteed.
Can you give us a few more details about what you feel is causing your pain? I mean the latest thing. In the meantime, I'm going to think about your post some more to see if I can find the right words to help you a bit.
Just keep in mind that you're already there. You just don't know it. Now it's just a matter of getting rid of the dirt on the windshield and soon you'll be able to see clearly. So take heart, okay? Happiness is just around the corner.
We usually are attracted to Buddhism because we want to be happy and we dont want to be unhappy. And thats the problem. And Buddhism is the way out, but its not about being happy and not being unhappy.
I'd like to address the concern about depression:
I don't believe that I am depressed to the point where I require medical attention. I have been very depressed in the past, and I know I am not at that point. Throughout my years (10 actually) of seeing various doctors, I know the course of treatment:
take medication, and talk about your problems and analyze them in a very cerebral way. Medication (in the past) was the ONLY option for me at that time.
However, the last 6 months of studying Buddhism has shed light on many of my problems. I believe that taking medication would be nothing but a hindrance at this point. I believe that the way I view life (in a somewhat anxious and negative way) is not a *physical* affliction (which is what I've been told by doctors for years) but rather an addiction, or habit, and somewhat of an identity.
Right now I am not feeling quite as down as yesterday. however I still seem to be in a state that is slightly lower than "neutral", if that makes sense. What's really weird is that whenever I'm in a state, it colors my memory, so I can't really tell you with accuracy how long I've been feeling okay, or low.
The immediate cause for my unhappiness last night is just general anxiety i think. It sounds really trivial when I write it out, but I had cut my finger very deeply a few nights ago, the pain was keeping me awake, not being able to sleep (a major stress for me) made me worry about not getting to school the next day, plus the fact that I couldn't stop thinking about one of my student's mothers disapproving of me.
***I do feel like there MUST be a trick to dissociating from this pain, since I realize the superficial nature of it, and I can identify all of the causes, and the pain and anxiety--I see it very clearly. but how do I dissociate from it so that it no longer hurts?
Then, the less immediate question is, when the acute pain is gone, there's a little bit of "blahness" that follows me around. How do I access that feeling of peace and love that they say is underneath it all?
This becomes another major cause for confusion--do I celebrate, and use this as a means to bring me out of my bad mood? Because I'd like my happiness to be rooted in something deeper than external factors... (I may not get the job, so I don't want to invest too much in this excitement, you know?)
I'm still searching for the peace that is underlying...
Please don't dissociate from the pain. Please embrace the pain. Look at it deeply and tenderly. It is only in this way that you may come to truly see its impermanent nature and use your natural power to know the end of the pain. Secondary disturbances arise from clinging to the pain as continuous, it's not. When you know this by clearly examining the pain in tranquil tenderness, by being very quiet and allowing the mind (thoughts and emotions)to settle, and tenderly touching the pain with the mind you will come to see how it arises and fades away moment to moment. Some moments the pain is acute, others it is barely there! How is this so? Experiment. This is a great opportunity to work with the phenomena of pain. Fell it, feel its rise and fall in the body/mind without clinging to it as a bad thing. Just rest and see if you can have a little curiosity about the pain. Then maybe some appreciation. And finally, maybe some humor or joy about how the pain comes and goes all by itself without trying to fix anything. It may be the overwhelming desire to be free of the pain that actually increases it and gives rise to the other painful disturbances experienced as increased pain.
Shalom and Hugs
This is a great opportunity to consider how temporary everything is. You feel great now, have you always felt great? The good moods pass, just like the bad moods do. I think that's a big part of finding that elusive lasting peace: really knowing that nothing is permanent. Of course, it's much easier said than done
That said, it's great to hear that you've got the interview, and I'll cross my fingers for you!
When something trivial winds you up, try to find the reason it is upsetting you. I found that minor problems often dissolved under close scrutiny, it seemed I was getting angry 'just because'.
Keep up your efforts, things WILL get better.
The same approach as was offered in my last post applies to pleasant feelings. Embrace, explore, appreciate, in tranquil tenderness.
pleasure/pain, pleasure/pain
tranquil tenderness
exquisite
I've heard it said that this is how the Spiritual Warrior (Bodhisattva) experiences life.
Shalom and Hugs
The trick is that there is no trick. I know that sounds Very Zen...
Underlying your questions is an assumption that if you find the right way to manipulate experience, somehow, you will feel good. It is chasing after feeling good that is the problem in itself. Just opening to the experience of the moment, just as it is, is enough to bring relief. But there is usually a lot of conditioning working against that approach.
You might try the meditations described here.
Where did you ever get the idea that Buddhism would stop your finger from hurting, or that you could dissociate from the pain?
Freedom from pain exists, but it doesn't come from trying to get rid of it. Talk to your teacher.
What the others are saying is right. You're looking for peace and happiness in external things. You said in your first post, Here you are looking for happiness in meditation, mindfulness, and being healthy. All of those things are good, but they're also impermanent. Meditation and mindfulness are practices that help you to eventually understand peace and happiness but you're looking for the actual practices themselves to automatically grant you happiness and that's not the way it works.
You're also looking for peace and happiness in acceptance and approval by the mother of one of your students. That acceptance, if ever bestowed upon you, is still impermanent, transitory. It will never be a sure thing.
So here's where you might be going wrong: It sounds to me like you're looking for peace and happiness in external factors, things that are outside of yourself like circumstances, practices, other people's opinions, etc. etc. and when one of these external things shows its true nature, it's impermanence and unsatisfactoriness, you become disappointed, upset, and depressed. In other words, you're expecting things to be what they cannot be.
My advice is to study the Buddha's teachings regarding the Three Characteristics of Existence; that all phenomena, all conditioned things, are necessarily impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self. Understanding impermanence (anicca), suffering or unsatisfactoriness (dukkha), and not-self (anatta) and how these factors affect us and everything we experiences is essential to the Buddhist path and eventual peace and happiness. Understanding them is Right View, seeing things as they truly are, not as we wish they would be or think they should be.
Dissociating is definitely not the Buddhist way. It's actually the opposite of the Buddhist way. As the others have said, pain is not to be avoided. No feelings are to be avoided, whether positive or negative. Avoidance and dissociation (not the psychiatric definition) result in the repression of emotions we find unpleasant and the clinging attachment to emotions we find pleasant. This is not the way to happiness.
You may be asking, "If I can't find happiness in external things, where can I find it?" You can find true and lasting peace and happiness internally, in your own mind. The kind of peace and happiness that you don't cling to and depend on. The way you go about finding that kind of peace and happiness is to follow what the Buddha taught as closely and wholeheartedly as you can because he gave us step by step instructions for one thing and one thing only; the cessation of our suffering.
Go back and study the Three Characteristics of Existence (also known as the Three Seals) and what they mean to your everyday life. They're really, really important because if you continue to rely so heavily on circumstances and other external things for your happiness, you're going to keep suffering and a lot of that kind of suffering is avoidable.
You're a great candidate for Buddhism in my humble opinion. You're fed up with suffering and you're ready to do whatever you have to do in order to find relief. Think about how incredibly fortunate you are to have been born human at a time when you could find, hear, and understand the Buddha's teachings. He taught precisely what you're looking for. How lucky is that?
And herein lies my objection to the medical model approach to treatment at times. The premise is made that pain (physical or psychological) is bad, and it is to be avoided at all costs.
This avoidance has a cost too. It makes people fearful, they can prolong their suffering by entrenching emotions in a anaesthetized way, they never spend enough time with feelings or thoughts to work their way through them and they do not learn how to overcome fears, anger or false beliefs with character and heart.
There are times when pain needs to be anaesthetized. When it is so great that it does damage or truly puts a person at risk, or hobbles them to the point where they can't function. Once people can manage with some of the pain, we need to let time and natural healing take over.
I would say Buddhism is exactly what you need Leisha. Time, patience and determination will take you places you never realized you could go. No quick fix but one that promises to be more lasting.
http://www.tarabrach.com/articles/mindful-prayer.html
Tara Brach's work has been helpful to a lot of people.
If "pain" isn't really bad, why is it bad to cause pain unto others? Sorry if I'm being rude, I'm just really confused...
I'm really not trying to confuse the issue, but I think it has to do with the nature of what is called "paradox". On one level, pain is real and it's wrong to cause it, because it's karmically "selfish" for us to cause it intentionally or through unmindfulness.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that on the "conventional" level, things and phenomena can be said to exist in a relative sense. Human beings exist and they interact, on a conventional level. "Things" exist on a conventional level. That's what "reality" is, on the conventional level.
So on the conventional level, if I am a Buddhist or just a decent human being, I realize that I want happiness and to avoid suffering. If I have appropriate empathy, I realize that that other person is a being in the same sense that I am a being, and that person wants to be happy and avoid suffering. So as a Buddhist, or as a decent human being (same thing), I try to help that other person be happy, and I certainly try to avoid causing that other being suffering. So on the conventional level, causing pain through unmindfulness is karmically not-right.
But there's another level, and it appears to me at least that what is seen as paradoxical on one level is resolved on another level. That other being can be fairly viewed as not wanting to deal with "pain" on this level either, so I continue to not cause him pain.
But on the level of the individual practitioner (me) experiencing "pain", it's helpful to have insight into the fact that pain is neither good nor bad, it just is what it is, and if we let ourselves be dragged into labeling it as good or bad we just perpetuate it rather than "rise above it".
So it's two levels of discourse, if you will. On the conventional level, it's pain and we try not to cause it. On another level, we work with it as though it's neither good nor bad so as not to go further into it. We just let it be what it is, a transitory phenomena with no real, inherent existence. We still feel the physical sensation, but we realize that it's empty of inherent existence, and to the degree that we're able to do that, we are relatively free from the "suffering" part of it.
But we can't expect the other person to want to deal with pain at any level at all, so we don't cause pain. It's real enough to the other person.
'The good is apparantly dukkha (suffering) too. I don't know what is non-suffering then? This elusive "enlightenment," which literally no one achieved except the buddha, and who knows if even he reached it!? Ugh I don't know I'm just confused, without polarity of "good" and "bad" what's the point of doing "good" unto others, its not real and impermanent...
If "pain" isn't really bad, why is it bad to cause pain unto others? Sorry if I'm being rude, I'm just really confused...
Dear theuprising,
I once had a priest correct me regarding the use of the words 'good' and 'bad'. They told me that the problem with these words is that they generally carry with them moral judgment. I contemplated and meditated on this for some time and with more advice from the priest came to a little vague understanding that it may be better to use the words 'correct' and 'mistaken' in place of good and bad.
For me, I actually prefer to use the words 'harmful' and 'good', in the sense that stuff happening may result in harm (which may be painful) or result in some benefit, which is good; like good stuff happening or feeling good (which may be pleasure).
I also imagine, from hearing, contemplating and meditating on teachings, that in the desire realm - this realm in which we common folk all live right now - satisfaction (sukkha) is what we most wish for and dissatisfaction (dukkha) is the experience of not having satisfaction and that with training with the BuddhaDharma this experience, in connection with stuff happening, can be transformed into "Nirvana" which is getting over the wish for satisfaction and beyond the pleasure of having it or the pain of not having it - think they call this equanimity? (but I'm not sure
In regard to 'doing "good" unto others, its not real and impermanent...' and 'If "pain" isn't really bad, why is it bad to cause pain unto others?'
I imagine, again from training, that it's about moving beyond "doing" or "not doing" TO others and about doing or not doing stuff that may result in potential harm or goodness arising. Its about working with potentials. Through training with the BuddhaDharma we may gain some wisdom, some insight into the way things really are and how they appear and some knowledge about how to respond to circumstances (and I mean all circumstances) so that the potential for harm to arise is diminished or eliminated allowing for the potential for goodness to arise. (actually this idea of naturally arising goodness came from the Shambhala concept of 'Basic Goodness')
In the discipline of Bodhisattva training one learns to discriminate wisely, form intentions and act for the benefit of liberating others from slavery to suffering. In this, I imagine that acting in a way that results in an other feeling pain is associated with the wish for their "good", not harm.
Its not about pain being good or bad. Pain is pain. I've come to imagine it as associated with "being" in disagreement (disharmony/discord) with stuff happening. Its a fundamental feeling that arises in contact with circumstances. In the same way, pleasure is "being" in agreement (harmony/accord) with circumstances. The trick then becomes to "be" so that there is no longer the potential for either agreement or disagreement with circumstances.
I imagine reaching and remaining in this state of "being" as the goal of the Theravadin vehicle, whereas the aspirant of the Mahayana vehicle wishes to reach this goal and then let it go in order to return and help others reach it because we're all in this boat together, we "interare" and as long as one is trapped in this suffering we all are, so why not?? :smilec:
This is kind of long and rambly, please forgive me.
Shalom and Hugs
Palzang
@brother bob
Thanks for the reply, I'll reply back when I decipher what you're saying, its a fairly long post :P. When you say you look at things as good and harmful, could you also look at actions of your own and other people as "wise" and "unwise"? Read that in a book, and in a book and it made sense, a bad karmic action is only hurting yourself in the end.
I imagine 'karma' as "action"; at least that's what I imagine learning from teachings. It's neutral. Karma (action) may contribute to harmful or beneficial (which I like to call "good') results, based on intention. In this sense, I imagine "wise" intentions and actions increasing the likelihood of goodness arising and "unwise" intentions and actions increasing the likelihood of harm arising.
How confused are you now??? :eek: Just wait it gets better!
This I've heard about karma: edited
Saraha ... described devotion as ... trusting cause, condition and effect (BB-which I imagine as the law of karma). If you have the causes and conditions, and if you don’t have any obstacles, then the result has to follow. For example, if you have an egg, and enough water and heat, and nobody disturbs it, then the egg will be cooked. That’s a fact. You cannot dismantle that sort of logic or law ... (Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche – Madhyamakavatara 2000; page 429) - http://www.khyentsefoundation.org/2004_05_madhyamakavatara_commentary_now_available_online.html#
I imagine that our wise or unwise intentions and actions (karma) are part of the "conditions" mentioned; like the water and heat in the boiling egg example. If we want good stuff to happen as a result of our actions we need to do our best to contribute the conditions that will help that happen. That's why the first moral precept is to avoid harming (non-killing) and doing our best to do beneficial things for others.
This doesn't mean that some benefit will automatically result. It just means that we're doing what we can so that it may happen and not so that harm may happen.
Soooo, now has your head exploded yet!?!
Shalom and Hugs
That appears to be a roughly correct explanation. I thank you for asking for correction when using Tolle as a frame of reference. IMHO great care needs to be taken when using Tolle or any non-mainstream teacher who doesn't self-identify as Buddhist and appear otherwise qualified. In terms of mistaken view, care needs to be taken (IMHO), and I thank you for recognizing that.
First, may I suggest going back to basics? The 4 noble truths, 4 divine abodes, eightfold path all cover this area pretty well.
Generally how I understand this: Suffering happens. It happens to everyone no matter how enlightened as long as we exist in the world. There are ways in which we create more suffering for ourselves: attachment, ignorance, aversion and there are ways in which we can reduce suffering for ourselves and others: mindfulness, compassion, loving/kindness, etc.
Do not look on karma as an immediate retribution, rather look at it as a general guide when you act in life. If you act mindfully and out of the right intentions you create a better world, in a better world more good things happen to everyone, you are a part of that world. if you act reactively and with wrong intention you create a smaller, meaner world with less good for everyone including yourself. Karma is not some divine shield of protection or cosmic hammer of retribution, it's just a reminder to strive towards doing your best at every situation.
And on the "better world" thing, I don't know, my impact seems small on everything since there's infinite amnt of sentient beings... but yeah that brings us back to the parable of how a grandfather is throwing clams on a beach full of them, and his grandson says "it doesn't matter what you're doing, you can't save them all," and the grandfather throws another clam into the ocean and says, "it mattered to that one."
Palzang
These are excellent questions, and ones I've pondered and still ponder. The way I've thought about it is in terms of the value system of Buddhism: what is it that Buddhism places value on? The answer is suffering, and the cessation of suffering. Not good, evil, pleasure, pain, or happiness. These things are devoid of any true meaning according to Buddhism. The Buddha taught the way to end suffering and thus end karma's dominance over us. The ultimate goal is not to perform actions with good karma or bad karma, but to transcend this subjection to karma entirely.
An enlightened being will not experience the effects of bad karma from attacking someone, but an enlightened being also wouldn't attack someone with any wrong view, wrong intention, wrong mindfulness, etc. If someone acts with wrong view, they are perpetuating the conditions of suffering and it is from this that the "bad" effects arise.
I would disagree with this statement. The Buddha taught the way to the cessation of suffering, not merely the lessening of it.
To say what an enlightened being would or would not do seems a bit limiting. I do not believe that becoming enlightened (seeing the Truth of things) limits what one can or cannot feel and what one can or cannot do.
The Buddha himself suffered after his enlightenment. He suffered from headaches and backaches and a few other things. Some of this is described here in the Milinda under the heading "The Buddha's Sinlessness." It is also clearly described in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta that the buddha suffered from pains and illness in his last days (which is to be expected).
The way I understand the teachings, the true cessation of suffering only happens when an enlightened being dies. Since at that point she gives up her spot on the wheel of Karma and is no longer reincarnated into this world to experience the suffering the comes from living in this world.
I realize that these views may differ from classic buddhist thinking but I do not see them as contradicting the teachings.
Yeah nibbana. But pain and illnesses do not equate suffering.
Yay!
Sometimes I experience similar thoughts and feelings and there are evenings every now and then when I feel depressed, mostly for no noteworthy reason. I thought that I should be glad to live the life I have. But sometimes I simply can't.
When I had such an evening this week I managed to allow these thoughts and feelings to appear and I wondered what in fact might cause them. I felt like I was watching myself sitting there feeling down. And this was helpful in a very strange way. In the past I felt guilty when I felt sad because I thought that I had no legitimate reason to feel this way, what made me even more sad - yeah, that's the human mind in all its glory...
Because of this thread I realized (again) that such suffering is nothing I have to avoid or fight against. Instead I should watch it come and go, accept it, embrace it and investigate what actually are the causes of this suffering. In my case I suspect a bunch of attachments - to people, things, feelings... And because of this realization I see a way out and I'm taking the first careful steps in this new direction.