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Full Lotus?
skullchin
Veteran
Another quick question
I've been able to sit full lotus lately for about 25 minutes without TOO much discomfort. Should I go ahead and sit full lotus when I meditate? Is there a benefit to this?
I've been able to sit full lotus lately for about 25 minutes without TOO much discomfort. Should I go ahead and sit full lotus when I meditate? Is there a benefit to this?
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Comments
Depending on which kind of meditation you practice it is usually not absolutely necessary to sit in the full lotus position.
So do what is most comfortable- full lotus, if you can't then try half lotus, or just legs crossed even.
Most recommend a stright and vertical back. This should make meditation more comfortable and if you are performing any 'energy' practice with the chakras, it is considered to be the best posture.
and i guess since i'm here might as well add some more. "zazen is not 'step-by-step meditation.' rather, it is simply the easy and pleasant practice of a buddha, the realization of the buddha's wisdom."
"you should pay attention to the fact that even the buddha sakyamuni had to practice zazen for six years. it is also said that bodhidharma had to do zazan at shao-lin temple for nine years in order to transmit the buddhamind. since these ancient sages were so diligent, how can present-day trainees do without the practice of zazen? you should stop pursuing words and letters and learn to withdraw and reflect on yourself. when you do so, your body and mind will naturally fall away, and your original buddha-nature will appear. if you wish to realize the buddha's wisdom, you should begin training immediately."
six to nine years...! don't be discouraged though.... just look at a banana peel and you'll be enlightened. you already are enlightened! he he he
A bit of a side note, I know, but I always find it refreshing to look at things from a zen perspective. They always make it sound so simple and concise! Usually when I try it though, it's never as easy as it seems.
I'm not sure I understand what these benefits may be.
The posture may be merely a cultural accretion from India, China and Japan, for example. Westerners may find it painful and need much training to achieve it. I was taught seiza, and this is more achievable and sustainable for westerners IMHO.
Even in India, I heard that if the back is straight and vertical and chakras 'aligned' why does it matter what the legs are doing?
What of a person with no legs. 'Disabled' in their spiritual progress as well?
I can't recall Buddha teaching the full lotus position - is there a Pali scriptural reference to it, I wonder? (Patanjali, Iyengar and Eihei Dogen Zenji references don't count! LOL
If full lotus was essential to practice there would be references to it in the Pali Canon.
Anybody ever come across one?
I imagine lying down as actually the most stable posture, followed by sitting upright, standing, and walking.
I understand meditation as a state of mind supported by posture. A stable posture helps the practice. Each posture has its benefits and liabilities. Lying down provides the greatest base. Its drawback is that we are generally conditioned to fall unconscious in this posture, so it may take some training to remain highly alert and mindful. Those of us with physical limitations may find this the best posture. Sitting provides a pretty good base, if you can form the triangular contacts between the sitting bones in the pelvis area and the knees or the butt and feet, if sitting in a chair. The benefit of this posture is that it tends to be stable and upright in relation to the force of gravity and we are less likely to fall asleep (hahaha!). Its drawback is that it causes the greatest compression on the vertebral column of all postures. For those of us with structural problems in our torso, pelvis, or lower limbs it may become very painful and debilitating to sit for very long. Standing is less stable then the preceding postures, obviously, because your base is the two feet, you lose a contact point. This may lead to distraction, as you tend to wobble a little and must continually readjust your stance. This can be remedied with training and many meditation lineages train with standing postures. Walking entails standing on one foot as you step, which of course is a pretty small base, for most of us (heehee). In fact, it is a triangular base if you can position the foot and allow the force of gravity to fall between the contact points established by the large knuckles of the big and little toes and the mid-heel. It's kind of tricky and takes some training to master maintaining stable contact and posture while walking and very few lineages actually focus on this kind of training - most of the sanghas and teachers I've meditated with simply walk to walk as a way of relieving the stress of sitting or of enjoying nature etc. and not as focused intensive meditation in itself.
In closing, I wish to offer this idea and request; Will you please consider meditation as a way to train the mind so that it becomes a stable highly focused tool for investigating stuff happening or for maintaining intimate association with beneficial stuff - like Buddhas, etc.??
I've heard it said, "We move toward and become like that with which we associate." I imagine that meaning that if I stay focused on maintaining calm stability (rectitude) as I move through the day, along with imagining being like a hero (Buddha, etc.) I'll become more like that.
I've also heard that "Zazen" is more then the practice of sitting in lotus, seiza, etc. and that we may "Sit in Zazen" in all circumstances.
Shalom and Hugs
I disagree on the point of stability.
In addition to what Brother Bob has said, I think seiza is far more stable as a meditation posture.
In full lotus there is an inherent instability towards the rear. Lean backwards and see what happens.
Seiza is used extensively in martial arts as it is stable in all directions and instantly allows rapid movement.
Whilst it may been culturally normal for India and some other countries, I see no inherent benefit in full lotus, as opposed to the others mentioned.
The importance is, of course, the meditation itself, and in one or two groups I have attended you would have thought you were in a Yoga class, where those few in full lotus looked pityingly on the others, almost like 'contortion snobbery'. LOL
As you say, you find it the most stable and balanced, but maybe you have not tried seiza. Some find seiza uncomfortable for the legs, but a cushion eases that. Personal experience is, as you say, the best way to decide on the best position for yourself, but we can't claim one to be the most advantageous for anyone else.
Nobody's mentioned a head-stand yet. LOL
for me full lotus is quite comfortable and far more stable than any other sitting posture.
it has benefits but is not necessary.
You're the second person to say that it 'has benefits', and I have also read the same, but what are they?
In terms of those who believe in chakras and engage in work on channels, winds etc., I can't see why it has any benefits above and beyond any other posture which keeps the spine vertical and in alignment.
I use various postures. If I am using a puja meditation table, seiza is equally useful, if not easier.
Guess, as you say, it depends on each person's body an dpersonal experience leading to recommendation. But so far nobody has given an explanation of why it is inherently better in a general sense.
I'll Google a bit and see if anything interesting turns up.
EDIT. This is what good old Wiki links to, but none of the benefits asserted is exclusive to that posture IMHO, and some are plain daft. The elimination of body fat, if true, should have post Xmas fatties queueing up at the Yoga classes! LOL
- The Lotus Posture (Padmasana) helps reduce excess fat in the body especially in the region. It aids in better functioning of the digestive and excretory systems.
- The yoga posture assists in the cure of pain in the knees, ankles, and back. Its practice helps those suffering from insomnia and asthma.
- The yoga posture keeps the mind focused because it requires one to sit upright. It is a posture often suggested for practicing Breath Control (Pranayama), Concentration (Dharana), Meditation (Dhyana) and Self-realization (Samadhi).'
Hmm.I have tried seiza. In my opinion, it's not as good as sitting with legs folded, either Burmese posture, half lotus, or lotus. Full lotus is not just an Indian thing, it's also the required posture in Japanese Zen monasteries.
Yes, I know that. I did mention Japanese and other cultures in an earlier post.
I'm obviously not getting through somehow, so my apologies.
Two people have said that full lotus has benefits, yet nobody has defined for me what they are. I can see how you personally might find one posture better than another, but I cannot see how it is the most stable position when you can fall backwards. However, what are the inherent benefits in terms of meditation, please? Anyone?
The other question I have is whether Buddha spoke of these benefits in the Pali canon. (I know there are some later Mahayana references.) If not, surely we assume the posture is a later cultural accretion based on the assumption that Buddha would have used it and that in some way it contributed to his awakening. I have so far found no evidence of either, but I'm hoping somebody here may know.
Does it matter if the Buddha meditated in this pose or not, not to me. The point of meditation is personal growth and awarness and whatever works for you works. This pose is the best for me. I hope that explanation helps to see the advantages it gives over other poses.
Thanks, but physiological advantages and personal recommendation don't really tell me why it is best for meditation per se. Don't know why I'm asking, as I wasn't the OP, LOL
Blood flow to the abdomen affected by the hip position sounds a bit strange, but I'll take your word for it.
I have sat with a significant Japanese Zen style lineage and there were no requirements of this kind specified.
Just adding another voice to this choir.
PS I can't sit full lotus for anything. To sit is enough. Back straight, mudra upheld, and other posture points that are and can become obvious through a consistent zazen practice, also published in places by teachers. Good posture is obviously important for physical stability and health of the body but as we all know zazen for example, is not just of the sit, but of the mind itself. That said, if I could sit full lotus, I would probably take the time to do stretches and yoga that would help that - but I can't and my priority is stability and a healthy posture ie healthy for the body and mind. As I understand it, full lotus is the most stable and natural position for those that can do it, but I value my health and this body simply lacks that flexibility here.
Just to reiterate posture is important and can be worth consideration and reflection, but there are no such strict prerequisites in Zen monasteries and centres that I am aware of. Zazen is enough. Best wishes, Abu.
Body and mind are interrelated. Thus strong posture can also aid meditation.
Strong as in fully stable etc. There are numerous studies on energy and blood flows and the like and I imagine experienced yoga practitioners would be able to provide an answer to this question, but I am of no such ilke and am not overly fussed myself in this regard. That said, I am not inclined to doubt it is of value if one can sit in it (and by this I mean come to it naturally WITHOUT hurting the body in any way. An experienced yoga teacher might be able to help if someone is unsure). Balance, stability, naturalness, body flow.
For those whom cannot, I repeat: body and mind are interrelated (not two), and to meditate is much more important than fidgeting this way and that about what posture is most beneficial etc. There are plenty of guides and guidance around already from established teachers on sitting and meditation (if meditation is of the sit for example). The most important thing about meditation is to do it, and to do it consistently. IMO anyway.
Abu
I spoke to my yoga instructor last night about the benefits of sitting in Lotus and he specifically mentioned the back position and the free flow of blood and energy to your abdomen and lumbar. I am not a physiological expert or yogi master yet just in training.
The point I wanted to make is that the lotus position, when done correctly, best allows the mind to not be encumbered by the body while meditating. The physiological explanation was my description of how this position helps to keep the body at ease so you can focus on your breath and meditation.
Any position with a straight back in vertical alignment would do the same in maximising the space and circulation, so would share the same benefits, including energy flow through the chakras. I just wondered what the legs or hips had to do with the flow from the heart to the abdomen.
Yes, I can see that for you it is the best position, as I regard seiza as the best for me. I just can't find any absolutes in this, only personal preferences. Maybe that's all we need!
I'm speaking of the traditional monasteries in Japan, the Five Mountains.
This was very helpful to me, thank! I had been coming to the conclusion that having the spine straight and knees below the hips were the main things one should look for in a meditation pose. Flexibility in the hips was something I hadn't heard of.
This was actually the direction I wanted to go in the thread, you just beat me to it
The benefit to full lotus is the stability of the position. That's all. If you're able to, that's great. Just take it slow and allow your body to adjust to it so you aren't hurting yourself.
(I'm personally of the opinion that meditation is purely to do with the mind, and that one can meditate and even attain Nibbana whether they're in full lotus, taking a shit, or even if they're nothing but a head in a jar). :P
i agree. I feel we put far too much emphasis on physical positioning etc. than is really necessary.
But still there are certain practices that one may be engaging in that do lead to liberation that are said to require certain postures. they are only methods not THE only methods for liberation.
usually the interpretation of the physical body as a catalyst for liberation is used in certain Vajrayana practices, some of which prescribe certain postures, one of which is the full lotus. The idea being that the human form and consciousness as the basis for liberation and the practices and postures as a secondary cause for realizing ones nature, or Buddha nature (or whatever one wants to call it). The form and "mind" function together in these meditative exercises in order to bring about the realization of Buddhahood. It does have to do with channels and prana (wind) and how these things function with the body and mind in order to bring about realization.
For the most part I think the number of people for whom this is relevant is pretty small.
some of the theories and practices are quite interesting.
http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?p=50305#post50305