Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
five aggregates / five skandha
upekka
Veteran
i would like to share this experience and would like to hear any ideas/suggestions/experience/comments
after two hours of insight meditaion it struck into the mind that each and every experience we come across (seeing/hearing/feeling/knowing) is a effect of a previence cause
in other words, kamma vipaka of a previous kamma
the same thing can be said as a 'bava' (previous kamma) paccaya 'jathi' (occuring of five aggregates)
those who knows/sees 'dhamma' and be mindful can stop the new experience become 'bava' for future (next moment or any future time) 'jathi'
but for who does not know/see 'dhamma' it is inevitable the new experience become 'bava' for future existence (jati)
so each and every moment whatever we experience is jathi/five clinging aggregates and it itself make 'bava' for future 'jathi' (existece/birth) unless we know/see dhamma
(it is bit clumsy when try to explain it but i hope experience buddhist practisioners can contribute something or can take something out of this)
after two hours of insight meditaion it struck into the mind that each and every experience we come across (seeing/hearing/feeling/knowing) is a effect of a previence cause
in other words, kamma vipaka of a previous kamma
the same thing can be said as a 'bava' (previous kamma) paccaya 'jathi' (occuring of five aggregates)
those who knows/sees 'dhamma' and be mindful can stop the new experience become 'bava' for future (next moment or any future time) 'jathi'
but for who does not know/see 'dhamma' it is inevitable the new experience become 'bava' for future existence (jati)
so each and every moment whatever we experience is jathi/five clinging aggregates and it itself make 'bava' for future 'jathi' (existece/birth) unless we know/see dhamma
(it is bit clumsy when try to explain it but i hope experience buddhist practisioners can contribute something or can take something out of this)
0
Comments
for instance when one gets up in the morning (say one opens one's eyes) one can mindfully go to the bath-room , brush teeth, wash face, get dress and have breakfast
then upto that point (because one is mindful) one does not have 'upadana paccaya bava and bava paccaya jati'
however if one opens one's eyes and think about what sort of things one has to do the day one just rush to the bath-room (no mindfulness at all) with so many other things (which are again bava paccaya jati) in th mind , brush teeth (with so ....), wash face (with so ....), etc. and driving, or running to the bus stand or railway station or just walking to do what was in the mind etc.
so all of such things all the time be the 'cause for effect' and it is never ending samsara
buddha actually taught to transcend both becoming & non-becoming
life is impermanent and just natural elements
everything is simply nature or dhatu
but your mind is caught in samsara, namely, the samsara of becoming and non-becoming
when one must rush to the bus stop, one rushes to the bus stop
rushing is better than being late for work or losing your job because one wishes to be a non-becoming zombie
kind regards
:smilec:
kamma is to develop goodness
the kamma that ends kamma is to develop liberation
:smilec:
the five aggregates are simply mere aggregates, just natural elements (dhatu)
:smilec:
practising mindfulness (be mindful of what is happening at the moment) is itself non-becoming
but any being (except Arahants) is five clinging aggregates
can we say we (not arahnts) are just natural elements (dhatu)?
the 'five clinging aggregates' is a mistranslation
the proper translation is 'five aggregates subject to clinging'
the five aggregates are body, feelings, perceptions, formations & consciousness
clinging is a product of the formations aggregates only when under the power of ignorance
for example, the body aggregate is not mental. it cannot cling.
the same with feeling & consciousness. these aggregates cannot think therefore they cannot cling
but unless one (except arahnts) is not mindful which means one is with ignorance (forgets the reality) one clings to body, feeling and perception starting formation providing birth place for conciousness
ignorance itself creates the next round of birth etc. so five aggregates true
however body, feeling, perception, formation and conciousness can not be seperated and they arises simultaneously and ceases simultaneously
:smilec:
I like this info! Hope it helps.
'Preface
Abhidhamma, as the term implies, is the Higher Teaching of the Buddha. It expounds the quintessence of His profound doctrine. The Dhamma, embodied in the Sutta Pitaka, is the conventional teaching, and the abhidhamma is the ultimate teaching. In the Abhidhamma both mind and matter, which constitute this complex machinery of man, are microscopically analysed. Chief events connected with the process of birth and death are explained in detail. Intricate points of the Dhamma are clarified. The Path of Emancipation is set forth in clear terms.
Modern Psychology, limited as it is, comes within the scope of Abhidhamma inasmuch as it deals with the mind, with thoughts, thought-processes, and mental states, but it does not admit of a psyche or a soul. Buddhism teaches a psychology without a psyche.
If one were to read the Abhidhamma as a modern textbook on psychology, one would be disappointed. No attempt has here been made to solve all the problems that confront a modern psychologist.
Consciousness is defined. Thoughts are analysed and classified chiefly from an ethical standpoint All mental states are enumerated. The composition of each type of consciousness is set forth in detail. The description of thought-processes that arise through the five sense doors and the mind-door is extremely interesting. Such a clear exposition of thought-processes cannot be found in any other psychological treatise.
Bhavanga and Javana thought-moments, which are explained only in the Abhidhamma, and which have no parallel in modern psychology, are of special interest to a research student in psychology.
That consciousness flows like a stream, a view propounded by some modern psychologists like William James, becomes extremely clear to one who understands the Abhidhamma. It must be added that an Abhidhamma student can fully comprehend the Anattà (No-soul) doctrine, the crux of Buddhism, which is important both from a philosophical and an ethical standpoint. The advent of death, process of rebirth in various planes without anything to pass from one life to another, the evidentially verifiable doctrine of Kamma and Rebirth are fully explained...'
Edited from the downloadable:
• abhi_man.zip 25 KB A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, by Bhikkhu Bodh
at
http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp07.htm
I recommend studying, contemplating, and meditating upon the 'Thought-Process" as presented in this offering.
Wishing you well
Shalom and Hugs
Exactly. But this microscopic analysis is theoretical rather that which arises from direct insight. The speed of a 'mind-moment' as hypothesised in abhidhamma cannot be discerned. But the arising & passing of consciousness in conjunction with the arising & passing of an in or out breath can be discerned.
The Buddha did not teach about Bhavanga because it does not actually exist. To think there is a continuity of consciousness is defiled insight. The Buddha advised the arising & passing of consciousness has been discerned.
Anatta means 'not-self'. It is a doctrine of dispossession or relinquishment. it is not related to a 'soul' or absence of one.
To regard there to be a stream of consciousness (Bhavanga) is the same as believing there is a 'soul'.
As for literal rebirth, it cannot be verified.
Kind regards
Ignorance creates craving, attachment, becoming, self-view & suffering. it does not create the five aggregates (although it can "build" the five aggregates).
The existence of the five aggregates is not suffering. Only regarding the five aggregates as "I" and "mine" is suffering.
It is important to discern this because in doing so, the mind discerns Nibbana or liberation.
Kind regards
DDhatu:)
Both unenlightened and enlightened beings are conscious. Unenlightened beings' consciousness is simply tainted by ignorance.
Clinging to the body/percetion/feeling is not what results in consciousness. The Buddha never taught this. The Buddha taught concsciousness arises and ceases constantly throughout our lives and is dependent on a sense organ coming in contact with a sense object.
When I read your response 'non-sense' to the posted reference to the abhidarma teachings I felt some disagreement and imagined this statement coming from someone who really doesn't clearly understand the genesis of the abhidharma teachings or how to practice with them. I'm neither an abhidharmist nor an appologist for that school of practice, in fact, I actually train to uphold Mahayana monastic and Bodhisattva vows and consider myself a disciple of prajnaparamita; who is especially fond the Prasangika Madhyamika school/training.
I came to study, contemplate, and meditate upon the abhidarma teachings because one of my Zen teachers/mentors assigned me the task of knowing this body of information. Thus, I've been training (hearing, contemplating, and meditating) with this stuff for about twelve years now.
Please remember that all teachings are simply provisional means for others of varying dispositions to clearly understand and train with the BuddhaDharma.
The Abhidarma information was compile from the direct practical experience of
seriously dedicated meditators regarding the inner landscape of their body/mind, as they imagined it over many years of rigorous training. The error that many folks make; especially contemporary philosophers and theoreticians (those I've often referred to as being stuck in their F-ing heads) - I imagine because they lack a depth of practical insight gained from years of continuous training with the BuddhaDharma (especially deep meditation) - is to assume the abhidharma information to be philosophical or theoretical. It is not! It is practical.
It is a skillful way of providing guidance to those interested in exploring the relative functioning of the body/mind in deep meditation along with practical advice and recommendations for how to address the causes of suffering not a treatise on metaphysical questions.
The primary error in the abhidharma point of view is said to be, not in it's presentation of the functioning of the mind; which by the way I imagine is accepted by all Buddhist schools and, as a matter of fact, is required study in Tibetan monastic education as part of Prajnaparamita training, but in it's affirmative approach to the inherent existence of elements (bhuta), as I think you pointed out. This view does not agree with the Mahayana assertion on no-self/emptiness/no inherent existence, etc.
Therefor, dear, I humbly recommend and request that you pursue deeper study, contemplation, and meditation on these things before making disparaging statements regard these matters.
In any case your argument in opposition "non-sense" may best be made to a qualified Theravadin adept of the abhidharma, based in your own verification of the information through years of practical experience, rather then intellectual speculation, which I imagine as quite harmful to others who may be new to the BuddhaDharma, as we have here, and confused as to what is correct.
Shalom and Hugs
Philosophy is not training.
Too much guru worship it seems on your behalf. Generally, those who have practised for "years" have not gotten very far.
Indeed. What you are recommending is "incorrect". As for what is "harmful"...
No thank you. Yuk.
:hrm:
:rolleyes:
The above Tibetan view is contrary to the teachings of the Buddha who regarded a wise person is 'skilled in elements'.
To regard things & life as elements is exactly the same as emptiness because both the elements (dhatu) and emptiness (sunnata) are void of self.
The view of elements is affirmation without clinging. It is embracing without rejecting. It is void existence.
Elements = emptiness = elements = emptiness.
Form = void = feelings = void = perception = void = thought = void = consciousness = void
Each human beings is blessed with many faculties, such as a body, mind, sense organs, wisdom, compassion and so forth.
Each human beings must relate to and associate with many things, both inside & outside.
All of these things are mere elements, such as the element of masculinity & the element of feminity. All of these things are mere nature.
This is how a Buddha sees & relates to the world.
A Buddha does not dwell in a mind of non-conceptualisation. Emptiness is not empty of existence and empty of perception. A Buddha sees 'what is what'.
The Buddha-To-Be rejected non-conceptualisation as enlightenment before his awakening.
The Buddha did not deny neither existence nor non-existence.
For the Buddha, empty means empty of self & anything pertaining to self.
This is liberation & this is the correct safe understanding.
Even when functioning in the world on a conventional level, the communication of 'self' must be used. This 'self' is 'not-self'. It is not a real self. This 'self' is merely mental functioning or communicating. It is merely one of many elements of nature.
A Buddha does dwell in convention and then in the ultimate. A Buddha does not go in and out of 'enlightenment' or 'voidness'. Whatever a Buddha does, whether keep silent, meditate, talk or eat, his mind remains in enlightenment, in voidness, in the ultimate.
Kind regards
DD (Terror-vadist)
As for those who assert only non-being, only non-existence, the Buddha regarded such as like a dog chasing its own tail. For these, the Buddha said:
Yes. A stream winner can fall back at times. That is why they must keep practising.
Kind regards
I feel profound sadness reading the words you've posted.
I do wish you well and happy.
And continue to offer you
Shalom and Hugs
Just another condescending brainwashed.
We love it when the Mahas say: "We feel sorry for you; we will pray for you".
Much of Mahayana thought was a regression.
Mahayana is akin to Advaita, etc....
The Mahayana view on emptiness is simply not that of the Buddha's.
Take it or leave it.
You ole' trickster you. Thank you for your kindness in exemplifying the principle of never believing what another says about the BuddhaDharma
Dear Teacher,
I prostate to you with body, speech, and mind and present clouds of every type of offering both actual and mentally transformed ... please remain until cyclic existence ends and turn the wheel of the Dharma for the benefit of all beings...
Shalom and Hugs
Please...keep your hugs to yourself...
:skeptical
This is sooo much fun
Your offering is rejected. Why would I want an offering of delusion? How could it be beneficial?
:wtf:
In Thailand, there is the saying: "Snake, fish, fish!, snake, fish, fish!".
This is when a snake is excitedly mistaken for a fish.
The diversity of views & experience is like this.
But often when a mind is intolerant, under the guise of love, it manifests intolerance & the incapacity to accept diversity.
This is another delusion of false & dangerous misunderstanding of emptiness.
thanks dhamma dhatu