Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Karmic forgiveness?
I was wondering, if I have done things in the past out of ignorance that would create negative karma, can I somehow reconcile my wrong-doings?
Like some sort of redemption? Or can I only create as much positive karma as I can from now on?
Also I was curious, the hardships we've endured how can we tell what is negative karma, ignorance or normal dukkha which is part of the human experiance?
I am getting so confused and life is so much harder, being open and not hiding behind coping mechanisms (like anorexia), I'm finding myself having to be more hosnest and it is so scary and painful. But I'm finding comfort in the notion that we are all "one" and "I" am ultimately void... right? wrong?
geez blind faith is so much easier! Hahaha
Like some sort of redemption? Or can I only create as much positive karma as I can from now on?
Also I was curious, the hardships we've endured how can we tell what is negative karma, ignorance or normal dukkha which is part of the human experiance?
I am getting so confused and life is so much harder, being open and not hiding behind coping mechanisms (like anorexia), I'm finding myself having to be more hosnest and it is so scary and painful. But I'm finding comfort in the notion that we are all "one" and "I" am ultimately void... right? wrong?
geez blind faith is so much easier! Hahaha
0
Comments
Don't look at karma as a cosmic punishment system and feel stressed about it.View it as an aftermath of your own mental states. It's all a mind game as far as I see it.
So why is this bothering you so much? Don't take it too seriously. Just keep on practicing loving kindness, honesty etc. Try to cultivate positive mental states during your day to day life and keep practicing the meditation. It will take time. In the meantime you will get angry, you will scold someone, you might tell the little white lies. We all do that. When you are angry just accept that you are angry and reflect on why you are angry and why it is a useless feeling. Don't deny your feelings or force yourself to be the person who is so good, so gentle, so loving etc. Keep your focus on the practice rather than the results and changes will occur naturally
Blind faith is a delusion. It is so much better that you have at least seen the right path so now it's just a matter of walking it. How many beings out there are lucky enough to be in this situation? Very few
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
To see one's past negative actions were due to ignorance and to naturally not perform those actions again is enough for redemption. There is no need to 'repay' those negative actions.
Most dukkha comes from ignorance. Negative karma comes from ignorance.
Being honest is a good way. It is good to be honest about ourselves, to ourselves, but importantly, when we have a goal, need or expectation in relation to others, to be open & honest about that also, to ourselves & to them. The Buddha recommended in human & social relationships, the first beneficial skill to develop is honesty.
All beings influence eachother. Indeed we are one. We can grow from the positive & negative experiences of ourselves & others.
Void? Yes. Letting go of self-obsessions and investigating the way the genuine happiness can help us alot.
With kindness
DD :smilec:
Here's a couple of links to, what I imagine as, good information about this topic.
http://www.thubtenchodron.org/Retreat/workshop_vajrasattva_2006.html
and
http://www.thubtenchodron.org/Retreat/index.html#Vajrasattva
Shalom and Hugs
Yeah, but that's fine because this concept is something new to me so I can always learn something from you
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
I have to express my thanks for the articles as well.
"Most dukkha comes from ignorance. Negative karma comes from ignorance." Thanks for putting it in a neat little nutshell for me Dhamma Dhatu. Perfect.
Namaste friends!
OK I am back with a few questions and I hope the OP won't mind me hijacking his thread.
So here are my questions. I didn't PM you fivebells because others can also answer if they can. Hope that is fine.
1) Does he mean by action our "mental actions" aka thoughts?
2) So what he is saying is, since every little individual action of ours grows into a behavioral pattern affecting us in different ways (which is karma or karmic formations) we should watch every action closely. Understood. But how does this theory link with this life's behavioral patterns affecting the next life's or those of previous life's affecting someone in this life? What is the link there? Is it consciousness? (Vingana).
3) Finally and this is not related to this article but some question I have had form some time. I am hoping you might give me an answer or else I will open a new thread on this anyway. I have this quetsion, what do we mean by stopping the karmic fomations? I read all three of Ken’s articles but didn’t get something simple enough for me to understand.
If we do good actions then we will develop good, positive behavioral patterns and if bad then bad behavioral patterns. How do we ease these two ends and find an equilibrium where we no longer form any more karma?
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
Implicit in all of your questions is an assumption of personal identity. One of the effects of Buddhist practice is to undermine this assumption. What is the basis for your identification with the the memory of your experience from five seconds ago? If that identification has no solid basis, why identify the present self with the self of five seconds ago? From this perspective, what we usually think of as a life is actually a continual stream of lives, one for every moment. The life-to-life picture of karma can be understood in this way. All such patterns arise from a basic ignorance of the nature of experience. We ignore the fact that we are our experience, and are not separate from it. As described in the theory of dependent origination, this leads to attachment to self-concepts which reinforce the notion of a self independent of experience. The patterns, "samsara" in conventional Buddhist language, evolve as means of defending these self-concepts. By cutting through the disidentification from experience which is underlying a given self-concept, it is possible to cut through the patterns themselves.
To understand this properly on a theoretical level, it is necessary to understand dependent origination. I recommend this essay on the topic. It is pretty heavy going, itself, but it's the best explanation I've found so far.
Insight meditation is the route to understanding this on a practical level. How this all works practically in day-to-day life is described in some detail in the last two chapters of Ken's book Wake Up To Your Life, and to some extent in these podcasts.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
Interesting? Obvious? Or Ignorance... hahaha.
Which is?
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
I went through the article you gave and have a lot of questions to begin with. First of all I must say that this text answered a fundamental question I had with the other version of the dependent origination. However, that doesn’t mean this version is all clear. Probably Buddhadasa Bhikkhu has a point here but he certainly is not making it clear enough. Most of his very long text consists of nothing more than repeated claims that "there is no transmigrating consciousness that has tree life spans". I couldn't help but think "Enough already. Tell me something I don’t know"
Besides, this story about the three life spans is not there in the other version of the dependent origination that I read earlier. Anyway that is not the point here. Point is I need your help in finding some answers to these questions. So here goes:
1) He says "Therefore, the Name-and-Form in the doctrine should be interpreted using the Dhamma language not the everyday language" but fails to explain what name and form means in the Dhamma language. So what is name and form?
2) Then he says "The new Name-and-Form will then experience suffering, and generate the Six Sense Bases that sustains suffering". What does that mean? These statements seriously lack some explanations. He's got to teach it like he is teaching to idiots because this is complex
3) What do you mean by existence here? He takes both existence and birth in one bundle and skips any clear explanation what existence is and how birth (birth of ego) arises having existence as condition
4) And in the mahanidhana sutta the Buddha said:
Is it me or is it some serious error in the translation from pali to English because it sounds like the Buddha is talking about a physical birth here. I'm so confused because one minute Buddhadasa Bhikkhu’s explanation seemed so acceptable to me and then I read this. I will appreciate it if you explain this if you can
5) Finally, the Buddha had talked about rebirth in so many suttas. I am not saying he was talking about physical birth in dependent origination (I have question in all two versions of DO) but let’s assume he was not. So birth here is just the birth of the ego. But the Buddha clearly talked about the concept of rebirth in a lot of other suttas. How then would rebirth concept blend with the concepts of DO. Simply put, what would happen when the physical body breaks or in general terms what would happen when a person dies. Didn’t the Buddha explain that part at all?
Personally I like Buddhadasa Bhikkhu’s explanation of a consciousness that arises and passes away thousand million times per second so that we “feel” there is a solid entity called a self whereas there is not. Perfectly explains why the Buddha said we are “non-self” and this is impermanent as in things arise and pass away. But I need answers for the above questions. Unfortunately Buddhadasa Bhikkhu has not addressed them in his text and maybe he has but I am too dumb I don't get it.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
Blessings ...
I just have a couple comments on a few of your questions:
I'm not sure where he says this but he does say that birth/death should not be understood in everyday language but in Dhamma language. What this means is the birth and death aspects of the overall self-concept. Therefore in the chain of D.O. things such as consciousness and name-and-form are tainted. So when ignorance is cut off, one is free of tainted consciousness, tainted name-and-form, rather than consciousness and name-and-form ceasing alltogether.
The difference between tainted and untainted is explored in vipassana meditation.
For your other questions, the above should clarify things a bit, but I would also suggest reading this Thread: http://newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3953
Dhamma Dhatu made some excellent posts in it which explain things very clearly. Post #48 gives a very good example of D.O. in everyday life.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books3/Payutto_Bhikkhu_Dependent_Origination.htm
This is an essay by Payutto Bhikkhu which also takes the "everyday" approach and gives examples as well.
This is not Buddhadasa's explanation but the Buddha's explanation. Consciousness is only ever explained in such a way in the suttas.
In regards to rebirth, I would say it is simply irrelevant. The Buddha taught that the belief was not a factor to the path to Nibbana. From what I have read in the suttas it was just a moral teaching for those holding the prexisting belief.
According to Dhamma Dhatu, the authenticity of the sutta you quoted has been called into question and apparently came along much later than the others. The Buddha never spoke like this in all the other suttas on D.O. As well, according to Pali dictionaries, the word translated as "descend" should be understood as "develop." Still, this has little to do with how dukkha arises in our lives.
Basically, simply concern yourself with the here-and-now. That is all you can do, and when the here-and-now is dealt with, whatever may or may not happen after death will naturally take care of itself.
I had no idea this sutta came later than the others. That's quite a surprise.
I need to check out the full version of the Buddhadasa Bhikkhu’s text. Is it a book? I wouldn't mind buying it if he doesn't go on and on about the same thing in the whole book
Yep, I think your explanation of a "tainted consciousness" is acceptable. Cannot imagine a situation where consciousness ceases altogether when a person is still walking and talking. Besides ignorance should produce a tainted consciousness and right insight should produce the untainted consciousness. But that still doesn't answer my questions. Hope I will get some help from the links then.
As for the rebirth theory, I understand it is a "moral teaching" because he had used that concept almost everywhere to get people to "think good, do good, be good, follow the eight fold path" and was apparently addressing a society where the concept was so deep rooted so he simply couldn't ignore it altogether. But that still doesn't make it wrong. Yeah but then again that doesn't make it relevant either
Thanks a lot for the links. I will check them out and get back to you. Keep well
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
Wejust have to be flexible, open and forgiving. Love love love. It's all about the journey not the destination. Don't suffer due to attachments and ignorance. Go with the flow. Let go and simply be. Meditate. Sit. Breathe. Be.
Apart from the endless debate most of which I couldn't read I went through the port 48 as you recommended. It is very good because it is given through an example but I still have questions.
Some example please? What exactly do you mean by fabricators
What is body-mind?
Need some explanation please. Where does this fit in with the same example
Thanks a lot
First I must explain the Pali and then be practical for the purpose of practise & insight.
In the Pali language, there are the terms kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara & citta sankhara. These terms appear in a few places, especially one significant place in the SN about meditation, which I will post later.
Most notably, these three terms appear in the Dependent Origination formula at the sankhara link. These terms also appear in the Anapanasati Sutta. These terms are explained in MN 44, which defines the kaya (body) sankhara as the breathing in & breathing out, the vaci (speech) sankhara as the applied thought & sustained thought (vitakka & vicara) and the citta (mind) sankhara as perception & feeling.
Step 4 of Anapanasati is calming the kaya sankhara or the breath. Step 7 & 8 of Anapanasati are experiencing & calming the citta sankhara (rapture & happiness). Step 3 of Anapanasati is not called experiencing the kaya sankhara but it could be. Instead, the Buddha called it "experiencing all bodies". The sutta states the breath is a body (kaya) and then there is the physical body. So step 3 of Anapanasati is experiencing the relationship between the breathing in & out and the physical body. The quality of the breathing in & out conditions or directly influences the quality of the physical body.
For example, if the breathing is long, refined & smooth, the physical body will be relaxed, comfortable & at ease. When the breathing is agitated, the physical body will be stressed.
Feeling & perception similarly condition the mind. Pleasant feeling conditions love, greed, lust, etc. Unpleasant feeling conditions anger, hatred, ill-will, aversion, etc. Neither feeling conditions confusion, worry, etc.
So the word sankhara means conditioner or fabricator rather than condition or formation.
The translators use the term bodily formation, verbal formation and mental formation, which is inaccurate.
The sense organs in Dependent Origination refer to consciousness & the sense organs manifesting outwardly or under pressure (from ignorance & hindrances) to engage with external objects.
This is contrary to Dependent Origination in the anti-clockwise direction, when the sense organs shut down or are controlled and consciousness subsequently flows inwards, within the body & mind, rather than outwards, engaging in external objects.
When consciousness flows inwards, this is meditation. The objects of meditation, as defined in the Anapanasati Sutta, are the same as the sankhara in the Dependent Origination.
So when we start to meditate, there is inward agitation. Even if the mind develops right concentration, it can still feel agitation within the breath. This agitation within the breath comes from ignorance & its partner, the five hindrances.
When Anapanasati states calming the kaya sankhara or breathing, what is calmed is the subtle mental agitation or vibrations in the breathing. This subtle mental agitation in the breathing is from ignorance.
***********************************************************************
So, in the clockwise direction, where the mind does not have mindfulness, awareness & sense control, Dependent Origination manifests outwardly as follows:
ignorance > fabricators > consciousness > mind-body > sense organs > ignorant contact
To the contrary, where there is mindfulness, awareness & sense control, Dependent Cessation manifests inwardly as follows:
consciousness > sankhara > ignorance
Consciousness or bare unconditional awareness calms the agitation in the breathing (kaya sankhara), calms the subtle discursive thoughts (vaci sankhara) and calms the perceptions & feelings (citta sankhara). This is samatha.
Then during this process, as vipassana naturally occurs, ignorance can end.
Samatha quenches (nirodhas) the sankhara and vipassana quenches (nirodhas) the ignorance.
***************************************************************************
So the fabricators are the breathing in & out, subtle thought and perception & feeling. They are called fabricators because the quality of the breathing fabricates the quality of the physical body, the quality of the subtle thought fabricates the quality & occurance of speech and the quality of the perceptions & feeling fabricate the defiled mental states & gross thoughts of the mind.
Of course, to investigate & integrate these dhammas I have discussed requires some meditation.
Kind regards
Lol, don't worry Fivebells I am getting some good information from the others as well. I am also in a very tight schedule at work these days so I am yet to read DD's replies in detail. Should get some free time during this weekend hopefully. Thanks for your note. Take care and hope your situation will improve.
Blessings ...
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
Take care and keep well. Blessings ...
In fact I am still reading the suttas directed by DD and having questions as always. I will get back on the forum reagarding them when I am done with it and will post a new thread. In case these is something you need to add to that will really appreciate if you PM me. Keep well